Well that answers one of my questions, thank you. Now my other question, why can't Priests be married? Weren't Catholic Priests originally allowed to have a wife and children? Peter, the First Pope, was married and had children didn't he?
Well that answers one of my questions, thank you. Now my other question, why can't Priests be married? Weren't Catholic Priests originally allowed to have a wife and children? Peter, the First Pope, was married and had children didn't he?Originally posted by: dawheat
To answer the question on why the Catholic church only allows men to become priests- the answer can be summed up through two statements:
1. They beleive that Christ chose his Apostles from only men by design, not by chance.
2. They, as the church, have no right or power to go against God's plan or design
Priestly ordination is considered the continuation of Christ's calling of his Apostles. You can read a pretty good write up at:
http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19990301/SCRMNTL/ordin_w%27men.htm
Couple relevant paragraphs:
The fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)
Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.
The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Don't mistake my part in this conversation for me really caring if they do or they don't, I'm just wondering why they don't have Women Priest and Married Priests out of curiosity.Originally posted by: Vic
The real question is: why should the Catholics change at all?
It's their religion, not yours or mine.
The original church planners may have felt that the priest owed their full attention to the church. Having a spouse would be a big distraction and cause conflict over loyalties.
(Anyone who is married can understand that torment. Do I post on AT or go to bed?)
The issue of woman priets may ahve been due to the fact that the primary follower of Jesus are men and would be able to spread the word. Very few females are associated by the Bible as close to Jesus and to acknowledge woman into the leadership of the Church would be to possibly elevate the concept that men are no longer superior in directing the religion.
Bias all the way?
Keep in mind that this is a discipline, not a doctrine and therefore has changed throughout history. Celibacy is part of demonstrating exclusive dedication to the Lord, leaving the priest free to exercise his ministry without having to care for a family.Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Well that answers one of my questions, thank you. Now my other question, why can't Priests be married? Weren't Catholic Priests originally allowed to have a wife and children? Peter, the First Pope, was married and had children didn't he?
Typical, you take a discussion and lower it your level by starting with the insults.
According to you but you but your opinion doesn't hold much water with me or most others.
Back to my original statement, you say it was stupid, care to explain how one goes about exacting change in an institution if one does not belong to it?
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: Czar
aha, so he is a nazi boy for that?Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: NTB
Great! But who is it?
Nate
I wouldn't be surprised if it's that nazi boy ratzinger
nazi boy?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html
that would seem to make sense... being a hitler youth and all... means you where a nazi as a boy...
CaptainGoodnight's grandfather also a nazi boy?
I never mentioned my views on the Religion in this thread. I did ask some questions and that's about it.Originally posted by: Crimson
Typical, you take a discussion and lower it your level by starting with the insults.
I suppose you could just abuse your power like last time and take care of that couldn't you? And oh... I'm sorry, you must have missed your OWN statement:
According to you but you but your opinion doesn't hold much water with me or most others.
Thats not an insult? But, that doesn't really matter since the rules aren't enforced on you.. Interesting on why that is.
Back to my original statement, you say it was stupid, care to explain how one goes about exacting change in an institution if one does not belong to it?
Its stupid because you are making the assumption that the changes YOU want to make WILL make it better. Its great to make a blanket statement like 'The church needs to change for the better'.. Wow, isn't that insightful.. I'm sure if you just TELL the Pope that changing their position on abortion will make the church better, he will change his mind.
Fact is, the VAST majority of Cardinals believe that the changes YOU want to make to the Church are WRONG and BAD.. In the absense of a Pope, the Cardinals run the church.. If you want to make changes to the Church's beliefs, maybe you should spend your entire life devoted to it, instead of sitting on an internet forum spouting off about how you know better, and how your voice should be heard?
The lay members of a Church should not be dictating dogma.. they should be following it. If you want to change it, join the church, work your way up into the hierarchy, and suggest changes.. I think people may respect your opinion more on changing the Catholic Church if you devoted your entire life to serving it.
I know you are smarter than this Red Dawn.. but you like to jump on the anti-conservative bandwagon because you are still pissed off about McCain losing the nomination.. and Bush becoming President. I really don't think you believe in moral relativism, but you spout off on it because you are upset that most conservatives don't believe as you do.
So, I stand by my statement..
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
It isn't the job of the Church to appeal to people. Religion is not some popularity contest.Originally posted by: jjsole
The catholics have been steadily losing youth and new converts to the evangelical movement everywhere because of their perceived strict religiousness and but lack of perceived spirituality. Youth want personal experience, and not church dogma.
Both essentially have the same strict rules that one is expected to conform to over the long haul, but evangelical churches make it much easier to get in to the door, experience and buy into first, before you're expected to get in line with your thoughts and behavior.
An orthodox pope with even more emphasis on the 'rules' is the last thing the church needs to become attractive to today's youth and to help build the church for future generations.
It certainly is their job. If they believe that their faith is a good thing and their church is a good place to express and grow in that faith, its their job to communicate that to bring interest if not enthusiasm to those who they feel could benefit from this 'good thing' (ie to everyone in this case.)
Noone is saying 'believing' is all about marketing, but if a church can't make it appealing for a newcomer to walk in the door, they won't survive. The days of the catholic church creating converts by force, by being the only option, or by public pressure are long gone (as well as being a catholic because your parents were one), and if they don't know how to relate to the youth and to potential new converts, they will be long gone as well.
There are plenty of other denomonations (and/or faiths) that can do this very well, which is one of the top reasons why the catholic church has been in decline.
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Because 99.9% of them have no interaction with Muslims where almost everybody does with Catholics. If they interacted with Muslims as much you can bet they;d be knocking them. Also many lump all religions in to one group, especially the Religions that have the Old Testament for their basis.Originally posted by: raildogg
Interesting to see these people constantly trash Catholicism yet say nothing about the great discrimination in the Islamic faith. You think women have it tough in the Vatican? Take a trip to Mecca or Medina.
.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Also, $100 says it's an old, white man. Any takers?
Exactly what I was thinking!!
Froms the timesonline link:
"He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ ? a position denounced by critics as ?theological anti-semitism?. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: ?Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation?.
I guess I'm going to go to hell. Don't pass go, don't collect $200, go directly to hell.
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Because 99.9% of them have no interaction with Muslims where almost everybody does with Catholics. If they interacted with Muslims as much you can bet they;d be knocking them. Also many lump all religions in to one group, especially the Religions that have the Old Testament for their basis.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's totally different in the South. They push Politics from the Pulpit down here, they didn't do that up there, at least not when I was up there until 1988. Let me know from any Catholics up there if that has changed.
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Because 99.9% of them have no interaction with Muslims where almost everybody does with Catholics. If they interacted with Muslims as much you can bet they;d be knocking them. Also many lump all religions in to one group, especially the Religions that have the Old Testament for their basis.Originally posted by: raildogg
Interesting to see these people constantly trash Catholicism yet say nothing about the great discrimination in the Islamic faith. You think women have it tough in the Vatican? Take a trip to Mecca or Medina.
.
Because 99.9 of them bash Extremist Fundamental Christians . They are pissed off we have a supposedly religious President who sent a couple hundred thousand troops based on false pretenses to Iraq currently dealing with Islamic people. Those troops have familes. Every last one of us know someone either directly or indirectly who deals with Muslims although not intimately thus they might as well be on another planet.
YOU don't bash Muslims because you aren't confronted by them on a daily basis like you are with Fundamental Extremeist Christians.
Truthfully I don't expect the Catholic Church to change in any way soon nor am I bothered that much by it. It seems that the Catholic Church holds little influence over American's daily lives outside of predominantly Catholic Enclaves and even there their influence seems rather minimal, especially here in Boston.Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Because 99.9% of them have no interaction with Muslims where almost everybody does with Catholics. If they interacted with Muslims as much you can bet they;d be knocking them. Also many lump all religions in to one group, especially the Religions that have the Old Testament for their basis.
Thats not the point. We're talking about a Church that is thousands of years old and you can't suddenly expect them to change overnight. It has changed over the years because of outside pressure. The Catholic church represents the true nature of the bible and follows it much more closely than the other Christian factions. Catholocism avoids individualism which goes against the Christian community. It is different from other the Protestant churches in many ways.
Originally posted by: JackStorm
As some have already pointed out, people didn't have much choice when it came to joining or not joining the Hitler youth back then. Though, if he had any balls or moral convictions he wouldn't have. So I guess he did have a choice. But, whatever.
Protestant parishes are run in a much different manner than are Catholic parishes. Catholic parishes are also typically much larger - it's pretty common for a single priest to be responsible for ~1600 Catholic families - simply because the Protestant churches are broken into many smaller denominations. The Catholic priest is a free counselor to everyone in the parish, maintains the grounds, as well as all his spiritual duties. Further, the idea is that he can be totally devoted to his ministry, rather than to a wife and kids. The protestant ministers that I know don't work long hours (relatively speaking), have a relatively normal family life, and so on. Their pastoral duties are like a normal job (with the obvious exceptions), whereas the priest is essentially consumed by his work.Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So Priest work more than Protestant Ministers? I find that hard to believe. In fact Prot Ministers Wives often help them with their work. If Priests were allowed to marry you would get two for the price of one as far as work goes.
This is exactly where your analysis fails. Because the Church thinks their faith is good, they refuse to modify it to accommodate those who do not accept it. If you want a bunch of flashy music and dancing, go to a rock concert. If you want spirituality and prayer, go to a Catholic church.Originally posted by: jjsole
It certainly is their job. If they believe that their faith is a good thing and their church is a good place to express and grow in that faith, its their job to communicate that to bring interest if not enthusiasm to those who they feel could benefit from this 'good thing' (ie to everyone in this case.)
The appeal of a religion is the religion itself, not how it is marketed. If you attract people to a religion through shenanigans, then you've accomplished nothing. If your analysis were correct, then the Catholic Church's numbers would be failing. In fact, the opposite are true because people who are really interested in pursuing a deep faith realize the truths that I've pointed out above.Noone is saying 'believing' is all about marketing, but if a church can't make it appealing for a newcomer to walk in the door, they won't survive. The days of the catholic church creating converts by force, by being the only option, or by public pressure are long gone (as well as being a catholic because your parents were one), and if they don't know how to relate to the youth and to potential new converts, they will be long gone as well.
Interesting, never thought of it that way.Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Protestant parishes are run in a much different manner than are Catholic parishes. Catholic parishes are also typically much larger - it's pretty common for a single priest to be responsible for ~1600 Catholic families - simply because the Protestant churches are broken into many smaller denominations. The Catholic priest is a free counselor to everyone in the parish, maintains the grounds, as well as all his spiritual duties. Further, the idea is that he can be totally devoted to his ministry, rather than to a wife and kids. The protestant ministers that I know don't work long hours (relatively speaking), have a relatively normal family life, and so on. Their pastoral duties are like a normal job (with the obvious exceptions), whereas the priest is essentially consumed by his work.Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So Priest work more than Protestant Ministers? I find that hard to believe. In fact Prot Ministers Wives often help them with their work. If Priests were allowed to marry you would get two for the price of one as far as work goes.
Originally posted by: raildogg
Interesting to see these people constantly trash Catholicism yet say nothing about the great discrimination in the Islamic faith. You think women have it tough in the Vatican? Take a trip to Mecca or Medina.
The Catholic church has transformed itself. The Enlightenment, Galileo and other events in the past have really helped the Catholic church move forward. Yes they did try to suppress Galileo and the notion that we actually did revolve around the sun, but it has softened its positions in the recent years. Today's Catholic church is much more inclusive and open minded than the Catholic church of a thousand years ago. Remember, the Catholic church brought law and order to many places in the world, including Ireland.
Those who are brining up the pedophelia issue are vastly exaggerating it. Yes there were some priests who engaged in this outrageous behavior, but they were a tiny fraction. The Church has taken steps towards compensating the victims and removing those Priests from power. They realize that the public won't tolerate this type of behavior, no matter what the institution is.
The catholics have been steadily losing youth and new converts to the evangelical movement everywhere because of their perceived strict religiousness and but lack of perceived spirituality. Youth want personal experience, and not church dogma.
Wrong, the Catholic faith is one of the fastest spreading religions in the world. There is a revival among young catholics around the world. The youth loved the late Pope John Paul and he loved them. You simply don't understand what is taking place. The youth are attracted to the Catholic church because its not wishy washy and has firm beliefs.
An orthodox pope with even more emphasis on the 'rules' is the last thing the church needs to become attractive to today's youth and to help build the church for future generations.
Wrong again, the late Pope John Paul was a very conservative Pope yet he enjoyed great support from the youth. The Church is very attractive to today's youth.
I know this to be true. I have a cousin who is a Catholic priest and his entire life is devoted to his service to the church. I find it very amazing and commendable. Literally his entire life is devoted to charity, teaching, healing, aiding, etc. I used to be very negative towards the Catholic church until I discovered this. Essentially where most people spend their whole lives involved in their own personal selfish desires of career, money, and their own immediate family, his life is devoted entirely to helping the misfortunate.Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Protestant parishes are run in a much different manner than are Catholic parishes. Catholic parishes are also typically much larger - it's pretty common for a single priest to be responsible for ~1600 Catholic families - simply because the Protestant churches are broken into many smaller denominations. The Catholic priest is a free counselor to everyone in the parish, maintains the grounds, as well as all his spiritual duties. Further, the idea is that he can be totally devoted to his ministry, rather than to a wife and kids. The protestant ministers that I know don't work long hours (relatively speaking), have a relatively normal family life, and so on. Their pastoral duties are like a normal job (with the obvious exceptions), whereas the priest is essentially consumed by his work.
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Interesting, never thought of it that way.Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Protestant parishes are run in a much different manner than are Catholic parishes. Catholic parishes are also typically much larger - it's pretty common for a single priest to be responsible for ~1600 Catholic families - simply because the Protestant churches are broken into many smaller denominations. The Catholic priest is a free counselor to everyone in the parish, maintains the grounds, as well as all his spiritual duties. Further, the idea is that he can be totally devoted to his ministry, rather than to a wife and kids. The protestant ministers that I know don't work long hours (relatively speaking), have a relatively normal family life, and so on. Their pastoral duties are like a normal job (with the obvious exceptions), whereas the priest is essentially consumed by his work.Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So Priest work more than Protestant Ministers? I find that hard to believe. In fact Prot Ministers Wives often help them with their work. If Priests were allowed to marry you would get two for the price of one as far as work goes.
Let me ask you something else. From what I hear the Catholic Church is losing a lot of members, what do you believe the Chuirch needs to do to stem the flow or bring them back?
The Church goes through exhaustive efforts to educate its higher members (bishops, cardinals) in the mannerisms of ethics. I would wager almost all of the cardinals have a PhD (if not more than one) in philosophy and related areas. This makes them eminently qualified to say what is right and wrong. That said, the Church doesn't dictate to non-Catholics what they should be doing. It does dictate to its members, as is its duty. However, those who are not Catholics would be foolish, in my opinion, to cast aside the opinions of such learned men, without due consideration, when they offer their opinions on ethical matters. The very reason they hold these positions is so that they may ponder these important issues and develop a completely unbiased ethical stance on them. They have no motivation to do otherwise. I think this is why so many people consider the teachings of the Church when discussing ethical issues, even in the US, which is not a 'Catholic' nation by a long shot. For myself, it is this ability to learn from objective, learned men that I remain a Catholic (or at least one of the major reasons). I put a lot of thought into ethics, but I have a job so I can't dedicate my life to the study of these issues. Therefore, I put a lot of stock in the unbiased opinion of someone who can.Originally posted by: JackStorm
Don't you mean what they 'think' is right? Who is the Church to dictate what is right or what isn't? Does the Church have some sort of monopoly on what is right?
The Church pushes its teachings, as does any institution of principle. It does not endorse any candidate or party. It simply tells you what its stance is on the issues.Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's totally different in the South. They push Politics from the Pulpit down here, they didn't do that up there, at least not when I was up there until 1988. Let me know from any Catholics up there if that has changed.
This is true in parts of the US and parts of old Europe, but certainly not globally. What I think is that the Church should remain as it is. It need not cater to the whims of the individual. Its steadfastness over the years is very appealing to many, even non-Catholics, who oppose moral relativism. Like I've said, religion isn't a popularity contest. People need to want to be there or they will get nothing out of it. All the Church can do is tell it like it is and people will choose to accept it or not.Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Let me ask you something else. From what I hear the Catholic Church is losing a lot of members, what do you believe the Chuirch needs to do to stem the flow or bring them back?
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's totally different in the South. They push Politics from the Pulpit down here, they didn't do that up there, at least not when I was up there until 1988. Let me know from any Catholics up there if that has changed.
The Church pushes its teachings, as does any institution of principle.
It does not endorse any candidate or party. It simply tells you what its stance is on the issues.
While I have not experienced that, this is nothing but the candidates choosing which side of the line they're on with respect to Catholic teaching. Unless, of course, whatever church you're going to tells you to vote for someone who is against Church teaching, which I doubt.Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Like I said obviously you have not been to Mass down here in the South. They clearly preach Candidates by name as well as why they want you to vote for them and they also mention the other Candidates by name and reasons not to vote for them.
Basically a live talking version of this board before last November's Election.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's totally different in the South. They push Politics from the Pulpit down here, they didn't do that up there, at least not when I was up there until 1988. Let me know from any Catholics up there if that has changed.
The Church pushes its teachings, as does any institution of principle.
It does not endorse any candidate or party. It simply tells you what its stance is on the issues.
As I told Dave, this is due to the candidate's selection of stances. The candidate could choose to align himself with the Church's positions. If he does not, then the Church has no motive to support him. That said, there is a significant ethical difference between abortion and the death penalty. The death penalty can actually be ethically justified (theoretically), while abortion cannot be. In addition, the sheer magnitude of abortion dwarfs the consideration of capital punishment. The ratio is something like 1.33 million abortions/year to 160 executions per year. Obviously this isn't the best way to look at it, but it demonstrates why one issue might be considered more pressing.Originally posted by: loki8481
I don't think that's entirely true.
The Church might not explicitly endorse a canidate, but look at what happened with the November presidential elections -- the Church came out against Kerry's stance on abortion and said that voting for someone who's pro-choice would be morally wrong, but were totally quiet when it came to Bush and the death penalty.