Bernie wants to cancel all of student loan debt (1.6T).

[Bitek]

STEM doesn't necessarily either. Mediocre engineers are a dime a dozen. It's already the case that getting an engineering degree isn't a guarantee to a job once graduation comes. And engineering is one of the better paths. Biology, chemistry, etc.? Good fucking luck. Chemistry is dead here with fierce competition for the scarce amount of jobs worth anything. The rest? Employers will insult you with minimum wage to $12 per hour jobs that require either a BS or MS in chem because they can. Not to mention post-doc being absolute shit....

Edit:

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-14823042

Engineering graduates 'taking unskilled jobs'

Nearly a quarter of UK engineering graduates are working in non-graduate jobs or unskilled work such as waiting and shop work, a report suggests.

The study says it is "not easy or automatic" for qualified engineers to find related employment in the UK.

Employers and industry leaders have repeatedly raised concerns about a lack of good quality science and engineering graduates.

But research from Birmingham University research challenges this viewpoint.

Maybe that's the UK, but where I'm at we're struggling to find qualified and well educated graduates ready to work in industry, including chemists and molecular biologists.

H1Bs are an important supplement to the workforce as there is a lack of domestic workers.

 

[Maxima1]

Maybe that's the UK, but where I'm at we're struggling to find qualified and well educated graduates ready to work in industry, including chemists and molecular biologists.

H1Bs are an important supplement to the workforce as there is a lack of domestic workers.

It's definitely here as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...c51275e7f8f_story.html?utm_term=.2ec18d842419

Most with college STEM degrees go to work in other fields, survey finds

People with bachelor’s degrees in science, technology, engineering and math are more likely than other college graduates to have a job, but most of them don’t work in STEM occupations, according to a U.S. Census Bureau report released Thursday.

Nearly 75 percent of all holders of bachelor’s degrees in STEM disciplines don’t have jobs in STEM occupations, according to a survey that reached 3.5 million homes, said Liana Christin Landivar, a sociologist with the Census Bureau. The bureau’s American Community Survey is the largest household survey in the nation.

 

[nickqt]

It's definitely here as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...c51275e7f8f_story.html?utm_term=.2ec18d842419

Most with college STEM degrees go to work in other fields, survey finds

People with bachelor’s degrees in science, technology, engineering and math are more likely than other college graduates to have a job, but most of them don’t work in STEM occupations, according to a U.S. Census Bureau report released Thursday.

Nearly 75 percent of all holders of bachelor’s degrees in STEM disciplines don’t have jobs in STEM occupations, according to a survey that reached 3.5 million homes, said Liana Christin Landivar, a sociologist with the Census Bureau. The bureau’s American Community Survey is the largest household survey in the nation.

Science, technology, engineering, and math, can all be done overseas for pennies on the dollar. It'll all be done by AI soon.

But, no matter what, we cannot even think about changing how our economy works, because then something something socialism, something something gulags.

 

[Blackjack200]

Do you allow anyone in or set standards? Is it fair to those who wouldn’t get in or wanted to choose a different path in life to have to pay for those that did?

We allow anyone into K-12, don't we? Is it fair to dropouts to pay public school taxes? Universal programs are just that.

 

[Blackjack200]

Science, technology, engineering, and math, can all be done overseas for pennies on the dollar. It'll all be done by AI soon.

But, no matter what, we cannot even think about changing how our economy works, because then something something socialism, something something gulags.

The whole STEM obsession is just a way to blame individuals for social problems. "Can't find a job, eh? Guess you should've been a math genius."

Even the Atlantic recently published a piece on this. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/education-isnt-enough/590611/

 

[nickqt]

The whole STEM obsession is just a way to blame individuals for social problems. "Can't find a job, eh? Guess you should've been a math genius."

Even the Atlantic recently published a piece on this. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/education-isnt-enough/590611/

They just want people smart enough to push buttons in the correct order. And they want to pay them the least amount possible.

Until robots can do it. Then they can go fuck themselves.

Meanwhile, anything arts related is shit on. Because it doesn't make them money.

 

[sportage]

How to pay....? How to pay....?
The answer is obvious.... LINT ROLLERS.
Lint Rollers will pull us out of this depression.
(Michael Moore, Roger And Me)

 

[Jaskalas]

They just want people smart enough to push buttons in the correct order. And they want to pay them the least amount possible.

Until robots can do it. Then they can go fuck themselves.

Meanwhile, anything arts related is shit on. Because it doesn't make them money.

That's the trick. Labor is the primary issue. While societies need to be flexible and robust with higher education, we are still lacking some serious fundamentals that cannot cope with automation and the precipitous fall of labor's value. Congratulations, you paid $100k for STEM, now go flip burgers until that robot does it tomorrow. Then you can take your college degree and... put it over your head as a roof. Until you need to eat it for food. It's made of paper, right?

Our crisis is fundamental and vast in its scope. We do need to train a better work force. But we need to do so much more than just that. And people will not understand the concept. When attempting to resolve healthcare resulted in misbegotten cries of socialism, and communism, that was a people 1: in denial, 2: unable to comprehend the benefit. We weren't ready to hear the message or support the outcome. We Americans defeated the solution, and buried it as a trophy in the elephant's backyard. Same outcome could be predicted for College unless we start with something more basic. As a proof of concept.

I sometimes fear the path ahead is too difficult for Americans to comprehend. At all. Especially since we'd be the first to achieve it, with no clear example to follow. Charting a new path for the salvation of Capitalism means we have to first admit its faults. We have to rip off the Dogma of America the dream and face America the reality. Humans are poorly equipped to face reality.

We gotta start with the basics. In securing their water, food, and housing. Education and Healthcare to follow. All sorely needed, some easier to understand than others. I think not having a house payment is something they can sink their teeth into. I think having a permanent income that follows them throughout the nation, through sickness and in health. They can appreciate that as well. It's a tax. A really big tax. But the return on investment is straight forward. It helps all, today.

I fear for a country that misses that.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Maybe that's the UK, but where I'm at we're struggling to find qualified and well educated graduates ready to work in industry, including chemists and molecular biologists.

H1Bs are an important supplement to the workforce as there is a lack of domestic workers.

You have to ask the question of why that is. We’ve made it prohibitively expensive for American citizens to obtain those degrees, and then ask them to compete with international candidates willing to work at below market rates just to secure a job in America, and excuse it under fancy terms like shareholder value and digitalization.

 

[ch33zw1z]

You have to ask the question of why that is. We’ve made it prohibitively expensive for American citizens to obtain those degrees, and then ask them to compete with international candidates willing to work at below market rates just to secure a job in America, and excuse it under fancy terms like shareholder value and digitalization.

Yes indeed, and in my experience larger corps will gut their IT departments (very qualified and knowledgeable people), contract it out, and the contractor g company is essentially all insourced / outsourced employees. Also in my experience, the lack of abilities skill wise, language wise, knowledge wise can be crippling to a corps IT infrastructure. But, they just turn the screws to the contractors instead, as long as it doesn't impact the bottom line, no prob.

You get what you pay for.

 

[Exterous]

In multiple states, $100 per hour for adjunct is actually a possibility on the salary schedule. Even for non-credit and baby courses. Anyone trying to sell you the idea that they have significant prep time eroding that $ per hour is lying (some we just know like language). That's only sympathetic for the first few classes of teaching, but then prep should be almost nonexistent, and grading time is very little for the vast majority of instructors/professors and probably would all get done during office hours.

The average (not even median) for an adjunct is $58/hour but thats based on a per-course formula not on total hours worked. It's more common to pay per class with the median being ~$2900 per 3 credit course. Good luck being able to teach more than 5 of those a semester so you're looking at <$30,000 for a 2 semester year. If you can find work in the summer maybe you can eek out $35,000. So, sure your high profile law or medical positions might pay $100/hour and make decent annual wages but the median is well below that. (Also good luck actually getting it done during office hours. College kids are very needy and argumentative)

 

[DrunkenSano]

Bullshit. You've made it quite clear throughout your posts in this thread that you think that people struggling with student loans are paying the piper for their indulgent behavior and should continue to do so because you worked while you went to college. Have some fucking guts and just own it.

You are obviously an idiot who has reading comprehension issues if you think I made a blanket statement about people with student debt. I see it is a complete waste of time and energy to have a conversation with you since you're one of those that loves spinning what people say to fit a narrative you want to paint. You're part of the problem with politics today.

 

[Blackjack200]

You are obviously an idiot who has reading comprehension issues if you think I made a blanket statement about people with student debt. I see it is a complete waste of time and energy to have a conversation with you since you're one of those that loves spinning what people say to fit a narrative you want to paint. You're part of the problem with politics today.

Yeah, I'm way off base:

...this idea spits on those who actually took jobs at the same time they were getting an education to pay it off in a sensible time because it was the responsible thing to do. Also, why do we pay for the tuition for students who went to college to party, received a useless paper degree, and now can't find a good job paying off their debt because they didn't bother to study while in school?

Because the way I see this proposal, it looks more like vote buying than anything else. Why not just give people who make under $100,000 some sort of tax relief. However, the tax relief does not go to their bank account so they can irresponsibly spend it. Instead, the relief can only be applied to debt, whether it be student debt or house mortgage, something substantial that is also improving their life.

How does my suggestion not improve anything when those people are still getting a payout but so are others who are perhaps more deserving? Why is someone who spent their free time working jobs pay off their student tuition not as deserving to relief funds than someone who just built up the debt without putting in the same effort at the person who worked and studied at the same time? Instead of leaving out the responsible and hard working people, they should be rewarded as well. And you seriously don't see what's wrong with going to college or university just to party instead of studying? Really? With free tuition, you are now going to school on someone else's dime, which means you should be more responsible on how you use that time and money. If it was your own money, sure, feel free to throw it away by partying and getting a C average.

I'm not saying it's cheating, but if you're going to do it, do it in a fair and more balanced manner that promotes work ethics and a more responsible attitude.

How does it not? Relief is being supplied to those who are not wealthy and my suggestion does so in a much more responsible manner, it also benefits those who also worked hard when they went to school and continued to work hard after they graduated to pay off the student debt they had. Now, they receive relief to pay off other debt so they can improve their life in a quicker pace. Instead of waiting for their house mortgage to be paid off in 30 or 15 years, now it's 10 or 5 years.

You, the responsible hard worker, bitter that those people might not suffer as much as they should. A thread exit is probably not a bad idea.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

He's right. The uber rich just got a hell of a pay day and the rest of us even though we got a piddly cut in some cases are going to pay for it in the long run. But to further the problem, anything like what Bernie is suggesting is still going to come off our backs so I don't see it as a win either.

Perhaps a compromise is to require the payback of some or all of the principle but forgive interest. Free college? No, I'm dead set against it. Reducing or eliminating interest I would agree with depending on details. Too many people are going to college just because they can and invest little in learning so a free ride means getting less back and that's too often the case. I think two or three years to start repayment with no interest would give time for a graduate to establish themselves. Actual forgiveness should be merit-based. If someone does well they ought to be rewarded much more than a deadwood grad who coasted along expending little or no effort. I would also consider some form of public service requirement tied to forgiveness even if it's assisting in feeding the homeless or working on repairing infrastructure and environmental improvements. We aren't doing hundreds or thousands of worthwhile things and this would be a step towards allowing them to become reality. Implementing a AOC type of tax could fund that kind of work.

 

[Blackjack200]

Too many people are going to college just because they can and invest little in learning so a free ride means getting less back and that's too often the case.

Did you go to college to learn to write sentences like that?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Did you go to college to learn to write sentences like that?

That's a snappy comeback. Care to compare academic backgrounds? You first.

 

[jackstar7]

Do you allow anyone in or set standards? Is it fair to those who wouldn’t get in or wanted to choose a different path in life to have to pay for those that did?

You suddenly care about fairness?

That's hilarious.

 

[Blackjack200]

That's a snappy comeback. Care to compare academic backgrounds? You first.

Thanks for reminding us that academic credentials are mostly used for dick measuring.

 

[Maxima1]

The average (not even median) for an adjunct is $58/hour but thats based on a per-course formula not on total hours worked. It's more common to pay per class with the median being ~$2900 per 3 credit course. Good luck being able to teach more than 5 of those a semester so you're looking at <$30,000 for a 2 semester year. If you can find work in the summer maybe you can eek out $35,000. So, sure your high profile law or medical positions might pay $100/hour and make decent annual wages but the median is well below that.

Each class (regular 3 credit) = 1 hr 15 min for just two days out of the week. Many of these go outside normal working hours. How can it not be flexible enough where either you find work elsewhere to complement it or get offers to teach elsewhere? I think it's also the case many colleges will pay the same whether campus, hybrid or fully online. Nice padding for many.

but thats based on a per-course formula not on total hours worked.

As I said, prep should eventually become nonexistent (if not already) outside of utilizing given office hours after teaching a few classes of a given subject. If you have to do 1 hr or more prep per class hr, that's a sign of incompetence. It's akin to someone finding out during post-doc that they can't write research papers of sufficient quality in sufficient time. The answer is to drop it to find something you're better at.... Shee-it, I've aced some classes with almost zero study time. If they can't remember enough to get through a powerpoint presentation, then I would be asking for my money back from whatever insitution granted them their Ph.D.....

(Also good luck actually getting it done during office hours. College kids are very needy and argumentative)

And that's bs for a lot of classes. I've had numerous instructors mention that people weren't using office hours. And if they did? Only around midterm or final. Office hours are a lot like people raising their hand to ask questions in class, which is to say they generally don't do it.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/12/professors-examine-the-realities-of-office-hours/

Yet the reality is that not many students regularly visit offices, though more tend to show up during the weeks of midterms or final exams. So professors may spend much of that scheduled time catching up on emails, writing articles, and preparing for classes.

 

[DarthKyrie]

It's easy to pay for if you scale back the military. Just need to reallocate funds from one area to another.

Surely you can't be serious (of course I'm serious and don't call me Shirley) we're the United States we don't cut military spending.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Thanks for reminding us that academic credentials are mostly used for dick measuring.

Well I didn't really assume you had any education or knowledge really. I was just wondering how you would respond as you almost never have a solution or discussion which addresses the substance of matters, but you do go after sentences.

When bereft of ideas go for spelling and grammar, eh? Don't address comments if you can't understand or they differ from your own, just pick the lowest hanging fruit for the lowest quality response.

Judging from the above you seem to be dickless.

 

[Blackjack200]

Well I didn't really assume you had any education or knowledge really. I was just wondering how you would respond as you almost never have a solution or discussion which addresses the substance of matters, but you do go after sentences.

You think you posted something substantial? I just thought it was funny that that sentence appeared right in the middle of a jerk-off sermon about academic merit. I assure you that nothing else you posted was worth responding to.

When bereft of ideas go for spelling and grammar, eh? Don't address comments if you can't understand or they differ from your own, just pick the lowest hanging fruit for the lowest quality response.

That wasn't a criticism of spelling or grammar. The sentence was such a train wreck I had to read it several times to even guess what you were trying to say.

Judging from the above you seem to be dickless.

Yeah, I mean if anyone has great judgment, it's you.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Thanks for reminding us that academic credentials are mostly used for dick measuring.

Coming from a toolbag that got pwned.

 

[Blackjack200]

Coming from a toolbag that got pwned.

"pwnd"? What are you in your 40s? 50s? How's that working for you?

 

[umbrella39]

You suddenly care about fairness?

That's hilarious.

You spelled brown people wrong...