Best SocketA performance?

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nJett

Member
Mar 9, 2006
77
0
0
yeah I mean Socket A Semprons - the 64 version sounds a lot like the oldschool celerons, less L2 cache but great OCers. Maybe the ASRock board w/a Sempron will be my best bet - which version OCs the best?
 

BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,940
474
126
Overclocking the Sempron 3100+

Note, the article was done in 2004, and newer Rev. E6 Sempron (90nm) cores are available. I'm not sure which ones are part of the Outpost deal (I believe those are 130nm cores). The E6 cores are supposed to overclock better, but the 130nm cores OC very well too (furballi's got one).

An overclocked Sempron running at 2.4-2.5Ghz is around the equivalent of a A64 3400+ or 3500+.
 

BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,940
474
126
Originally posted by: nJett
yeah I mean Socket A Semprons - the 64 version sounds a lot like the oldschool celerons, less L2 cache but great OCers. Maybe the ASRock board w/a Sempron will be my best bet - which version OCs the best?

Currently, all Semprons are 754 only, so the Asrock board wouldn't work. Since cost is an issue, I think the Outpost deal is your best bet. The cost of a 3100+ Sempron OEM is around $70-$80....so for $80, you're basically getting a decent overclocking NF3 board for free.
 

furballi

Banned
Apr 6, 2005
2,482
0
0
May hit 2.5-2.6GHz range with a good 3100 Sempron Palermo (Venice derivative).

The Outpost deal includes the 130nm 3100 Sempron Paris. Guarantee 2.25GHz, and possibly 2.4-2.5GHz with a decent CPU. I cannot justify spending more $ for a Parlermo chip, especially if the speed bump is only about 200MHz.

Put your $ in the bank and wait for the 65nm Semprons in late 2006/early 2007.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
Random thoughts/answers for nJett...

Sempron is available in socket A and 754. Socket A Semprons are just like various Athlon XP in core, speed, price and performance but just with a new name. Socket 754 Semprons are just like various socket 754 Athlon 64, but with less cache and available at lower MHz making them a tiny bit less performance at same MHz than A64 (but higher than socket A) but costing much less (starting at around $60 versus cheapest A64 at $110).

Socket 754 Semprons are available as both 64 bit and 32 bit. There are ones that AMD specifically says are 64 bit. The other ones may still be 64 bit, but aren't guaranteed.

The 130nm Semprons are analogous to Athlon 64 Newcastle cores, the 90nm Palermo D0 revision are analogous to Athlon 64 Winchester cores and the 90nm Palermo E3 and E6 revisions are analogous to Athlon 64 Venice cores.

Athlon 64 come in 512k and 1MB cache versions while socket 754 Sempron come in 128k and 256k cache versions.

There are socket 939 Semprons. You can buy them in one of two ways - on eBay and from buying a name brand system like HP.

There is a performance difference between varying amounts of cache, and there is a performance difference between single and dual channel RAM. That difference is not very much, so at the same MHz the difference between a 128k cache single channel Sempron and a 1MB cache dual channel Athlon 64 will be probably around 10-15% in most things (with a variance of anywhere from 0% to perhaps 30%). Most people get the 256k cache Semprons or the 512k cache Athlon 64, so the difference there would be likely under 10%. What really shows the difference between cache sizes is something that definately runs faster in cache if it fits, such as SuperPi (AFAIK you can set various sizes). For RAM, Sandra is a good one for testing bandwidth. Note that scores in those two benchmarks have little to do with real world day to day usage.

Your choices are:

1) Keep the system the way it is.

2) Keep the system the way it is but get a faster CPU.

3) Replace motherboard and CPU with a small budget, but keep everything else including AGP video card.

4) Replace motherboard and CPU with a medium budget, but keep everything else including AGP video card.

5) Replace motherboard and CPU with a large budget which includes new video card and PSU.

6) Replace the whole system.

Thoughs:

1) Well, since you are asking, must mean you do want to do something so scratch this choice.

5 & 6) Sounds like these would be more money than you want to toss into your computer at this time.

2, 3 & 4) Your most obvious choices. 2 & 3 actually would cost about the same ($100) until you sell off your old parts, and then 3 may actually end up costing less than option 2. However, option 2 is the easiest to do because you just swap the CPU (perhaps with a better HSF) and you're off and running. With 3, you have to do the motherboard swap and then may have to reinstall Windows. 4 is as complicated as 3 to install and will cost more ($200) but you have the option to go to dual core and/or PCI-E (using the ASRock board). Will you need dual core or better graphics between now and your next bigger upgrade cycle? That, only you can answer.

For option 4, the choice of motherboard would be the ASRock 939Dual-whatever. It is the only board on the market that I know of with "true" AGP 8X and PCI-E 16X at the same time. There are other boards with the physical slots but they don't run at full speed nor compatibility. There's been a lot of talk about this board so do a search on it if you are interested.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
Originally posted by: munky
The fact that I paid more for s939 does not make me a dumba$s, it just means I like the additional upgrade options and performance that it offers, and the higher price is not a big deal to me.

That is very true. I think the issue is with certain people who refer to socket 754 with words like "dead." You (munky) wanting something that you feel is better and are willing to pay for it does not make you a dumbass - you are a consumer. Someone else who proclaims socket 754 dead just because he/she cannot face the facts that it is strictly a "price/performance" difference with no relation to the lifespan of the product is the actual dumbass.
 

nJett

Member
Mar 9, 2006
77
0
0
Zap, thanks for breaking it down like that. The more I look at the costs of a new Socket A CPU the less I like the idea of replacing it. I'm leaning towards option 3 or 4 - option 5 & 6 are out for me, I can't justify spending that kind of money right now. I'm flipping back and forth between a 754 w/Sempron 3100+ (~$140) and the ASRock+A64 I posted above ($200) - I'm not sure if the extra $60 is worth the upgrade path to dual core and PCI-E - by the time I can afford that kind of gear I'll probably want to do a full on rebuild of everything - I'd rather spend that $60 on a new HDD (I'm still chugging along on a 60 gig IDE drive).
 

The OGS

Junior Member
Apr 5, 2006
5
0
0
Hi nJett,
I can't blame everyone for abandoning the SocketA, and all that you've all said is true.
But let's go back to the original question here.
So, you have an XP1700+ which is 133MHz x 11 = 1567MHz.
My XP2500+ CPU runs 166MHz x 11 = 1833MHz.
And there is an XP3200+ that runs 200MHz x 11 = 2200MHz
All 3 CPUs are locked at 11 multiplier, and you are using 133FSB.
What you need is your motherboard set to run 166FSB - bingo; instant XP2500+ for you :^)
Your motherboard's AGP and PCI dividers will be reset correctly in this 'stock' overclock scenario, and if it POSTs successfully it will probably be rock-solid.
Your CPU is Thoroughbred core (256KB, 130nm, 1.65v) and feel free to give the CPU ~1.75v which will help it @ 166FSB.
Most SocketA motherboards support 133 and 166 CPUs - just the earliest models supported only 133FSB.
The newest models (like mine) support 133, 166 and 200FSB.
Did you post your motherboard model - what is it?
Don't worry, we'll keep your XP running until Conroes are in the stores, LoL ;^)
Regards
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
For the HDD keep an eye in Hot Deals. There are rebate deals anywhere from $40 for a 200GB to $70 for a 300GB, and no rebate deals for $70-90 for the same sizes. Those deals come and go so gotta keep an eye out for them.

The cost for a socket 754 upgrade would actually be around $100 or so, minus whatever you can sell your CPU and motherboard for. Here's the deal, Outpost.com has the OEM Paris 3100+ with an ECS NFORCE3-A board for $80, add a $10 Cooler Master HSF to it plus shipping and tax (if applicable). Though the Paris chip is the "older" core and ECS isn't the most highly regarded, the motherboard has been quite "proven" over the past half year+ that Fry's/Outpost has been selling them by the truckload. The more recent Paris chips have 64 bit extensions and seem to overclock better than ones from way back (I had an old one and a new one). It is definately the best deal going for a quick and cheap upgrade.
 

nJett

Member
Mar 9, 2006
77
0
0
I'm running an Epox 8rda3I - my memory is running at ~420mhz right now - can't recall the exact clock speed the CPU is running at but the BIOS recognizes it as an 1800+ - I've run it as high as 2000+ but it's not stable unless it is cold in the room and even then it eventually overheats - I swapped out my PC3500 for PC3200 since then too so that may be a factor. It has a Volcano something or the other on top (7?). It's been quite awhile since I put it together so I'm a little rusty on the specifics. I'd love to get it to the point where a game like Oblivion is playable but I don't think my current rig will make it that high. It already runs a little hot as it is due to some overvolting and high ambient temps in the room (no chance of fixing that though).
 

The OGS

Junior Member
Apr 5, 2006
5
0
0
I feel quite sure that since your mobo supports 133/166/200FSB with nForce2 like mine, you can run 'factory' 166FSB easily.
This will give you 1833MHz @ 1.75v with proper dividers.
Do you understand what I'm saying? The motherboard changes dividers at 166MHz, to give you 33MHz PCI and 66MHz AGP.
So inching your FSB up, to 135...138... then 140, it's not the same thing.
Anyway, try the factory (or as I call it, 'stock') overclock with memory set properly to rule it out as a factor in the test.
You should run your memory synchronously at 166(333DDR) with loose SPD timings.
Running SocketA memory asynchronously provides little benefit, and increases instability in 128-bit (dual-channel) mode.
Set memory to 1:1 (or ABit calls it 5:5, whatever) in BIOS.
Once you get it running as XP2500+ you can maybe tighten the timings - PC3200 will support faster timings at the slower PC2700 speed.
L8R
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
To do that nJett will also have to buy a better HSF.

As for Oblivion, depends on what you believe to be "playable." If playable meant that you can install the game and run it and enjoy it, then your system as is should be able to play Oblivion. If by playable you mean that you obsess over every last bit of eye candy and framerate that you can eke out of the game, then you need to replace your whole system.

To put things into perspective, The first LAN party I went to, the weekend after Quake 4 came out, I was playing it using a Geforce FX5900XT. People laughed at me but hey, I never noticed any lagging framerate and it looked pretty enough to me as I was fragging their asses. Higher framerate and more eye candy didn't hand them the win. BTW I just installed it and started playing, never even once going into video options in the game. I suppose if we ran timedemos I'd find that other people's systems ran it much faster than mine, or if we took screenshots I'd probably be able to "see" a difference between the two when going side-by-side, but during actual gameplay I seriously coudn't tell the difference between what I saw on my monitor and the guy next to me (dual 6800GT SLI).
 

The OGS

Junior Member
Apr 5, 2006
5
0
0
Zap you are very knowledgable, they are lucky to have you here.
Re: Oblivion
Can't help you there, LoL :^) Is it a killer game, demanding?
Hey we all need a new rig sooner or later... but lets just get this guy running at 166FSB, maybe he can hang in there till this fall (when many new technologies will have been released).
Did you say your current vidcard nJett? That's your big challenge, and no new vidcard for you until you get a new mobo...
You're right, those ECS mobo/CPU combos are amazing though! I can get one, Socket754 with XP2800+ Mobile Sempron, including cooler & fan (comes with it :^) for $129 bucks. That's not bad, Canadian - it's what, lemme see here... $110 USD, cheap.
I've always found them good, solid. No worries.
I use them for my $400 back-to-school-system, LoL (parents love 'em).
The ones I use have onboard graphics, and an AGP 8x slot.
Anyway I was just determined to help this overclock - it can be done!
I joined just to help this fellow...
@ nJett
Re/re your CPU cooler, make sure it's sparkling, do the toothbrush on the fan or buy a new one, whatever. Clean it up real good and use fresh ArcticSilver.
Wick the CPU voltage to 1.75v with the case open and megacool, and the FSB:memory ratio as I described.
If it won't POST @ 166FSB, try 1.85v ;^)
My system is basically the same situation, except I am going from 166 to 200FSB. Works like a charm!
 

nJett

Member
Mar 9, 2006
77
0
0
OGS, thanks for the help - my ram is actually running synchronously at over over 200mhz right now and my voltage is as high as it will go without overheating the CPU (1.7 I think). I will try what you recommend this weekend - I'm sure my HSF could use a good cleaning - I might as well pop it off and go through the whole deal. I will also try dropping my ram down to a slower speed to see if I can hit a higher CPU speed - I don't think I've ever tried that before - I've always gone for ~200mhz (+/- 20mhz) in my overclocking with this CPU.
Re: My video card, it's a LeadTek 6600GT AGP - OC'd a fair amount but the poor thing is CPU limited so it doesn't do much for me.

Re: Oblivion - I'm pretty skeptical it will run on my system at anything above about 10fps unless I drop all the settings to the bare minimum. My CPU is below the minimum system requirements by several hundred mhz and below the recommended by more than 1ghz. As a comparison - I can run HL2 and hit well over 100FPS when nothing is going on with medium settings, as soon as a lot is going on it starts hitting as low as 10fps - dropping it down to low settings the same pattern emerges, as soon as there is a lot going on the FPS start crapping out - my CPU just can't drive the 6600GT hard enough to sustain good FPS.
 

The OGS

Junior Member
Apr 5, 2006
5
0
0
my ram is actually running synchronously at over over 200mhz right now
No, what synchronous means is the same speed as your FSB.
If your FSB is 166MHz and your memory is 200MHz(400DDR) that is asynchronous.
Set your memory same as FSB, @166MHz. Use non-aggressive (or SPD) memory timings.
In this way, the memory will not be a factor in the success or failure of the overclock.
Your CPU will do 1833MHz - it is the full-speed on-chip L2 cache that might not be happy to run at that speed, if your CPU is reluctant to overclock.
An XP2500+ will run HL2 well (dunno about Oblivion, LoL :^) but you will like it much more than XP1700+
L8R
 

D-Man

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 1999
2,991
0
71
If you live anywhere near a frys they have great combo deals. Outpost also has some good combo deals. furballi has a good amount of knowledge of the NF3 setup he mentioned. I also grabbed quite a few of these combos from the 2600 2800 to the 3100 all with the ECS NF3 board. I have purchased quite a few ECS combos and sold them with 1 return. I have a 3100 Sempron@2052 with a 6600gt and a single 512 DDR stick right behind me and I ran an old benchmark 3Dmark 2001 for you it ran 16412

I used this benchmark because it was a fast answer for you. If you would like to do a cheap upgrade this is hard to beat. Take your old MB and CPU and sell it on the For Sale Trade right here ( enable your profile ) and you will increase your Horse Power for very little money

I see lots of talk about higher end stuff and believe me I own lots of it but I started overclocking value chips many many years ago and you can still get a hella of a bang for the buck if you want to Good Luck
 

GreenMonkey

Member
Sep 22, 2004
106
0
0
IMO you should do the outpost.com Sempron/3100+ deal. If you decide you're unhappy with the motherboard, it was basically free

Nforce4-4x boards are a good upgrade path, too. Many have PCI-e with AGP support, be it partial or full. You could always ebay the outpost motherboard and get one of the NF4-4x socket 754 boards...

 

Madwand1

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2006
3,309
0
76
As for dual core...my $80 3100 Sempron rig (overclocked to 2.44GHz) can transcode a 4 hr DVD movie at 62% compression (Nero Recode 6) in 11:54. With Prime95 running in the background (Max heat mode), the transcode time went up to 12:02. How's that for multi-tasking?

Any decent distributed computing task will run in low priority, which means that whenever there is a higher priority task queued, it won't run at all. So this is not a valid test of multitasking. Change the priority to normal, then it would be, and you'd have a much higher transcoding time.

I run Folding@Home pretty much all the time, on both cores when running games, etc., etc., it doesn't affect me noticably for the above reason. I only take them down when there's some active interference, or when I'm benchmarking and want "pure" numbers. In practice, I usually benchmark for "pure" numbers, and then go back to normal process with F@H, and continue benchmarking, having confirmed that F@H makes no material difference.
 
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