Better Call Saul

[CZroe]

I don't know... BB had a nice supporting cast of characters, and gave us a driven plot that kept the big hits coming right from the opening scene. It kept delivering. The talk in the desert was nice, but would have just been another BB moment...

I hope they know where they're going with this.

How could they not? We already know where it's going because we've seen Breaking Bad, and they created it. Clearly, he's going to fall in with Gus, Mike, and the cartel. The show has already demonstrated that it is willing to go beyond the events of Breaking Bad and they have actively courted major cast members from that show, so expect more Breaking Bad.

 

[z1ggy]

Just watched all 3 eps. I think it's really good, definitely excited for this show.

 

[destrekor]

How could they not? We already know where it's going because we've seen Breaking Bad, and they created it. Clearly, he's going to fall in with Gus, Mike, and the cartel. The show has already demonstrated that it is willing to go beyond the events of Breaking Bad and they have actively courted major cast members from that show, so expect more Breaking Bad.

And while it will involve plot lines from Breaking Bad, they have also made it clear this isn't specifically a prequel to BB, and that it will be its own show.

And I'm glad for it. You get the crazy brother, the issues with the law firm, a possible love tryst with the one lady, the issues with the gang and working with the one guy who isn't ever involved in BB is also a nice addition.

 

[destrekor]

Yeah. Interesting how Mike abruptly stopped impeding Jimmy/Saul the instant he realized Jimmy was working with a Mexican gang member.

I don't think that bit had anything to do with gang or anything. I think, because he was brought inside to provide some information on the lawyer, he had a chance to hear some case info. Providing that, his past provides him with strong instincts on such investigative matters and gave tips.

He didn't care to impede Jimmy, he was simply a stickler for the job details. So once he was not forced to get stickers from Jimmy, and Jimmy wasn't hostile to him, it was a neutral encounter.

 

[CZroe]

I don't think that bit had anything to do with gang or anything. I think, because he was brought inside to provide some information on the lawyer, he had a chance to hear some case info. Providing that, his past provides him with strong instincts on such investigative matters and gave tips.

He didn't care to impede Jimmy, he was simply a stickler for the job details. So once he was not forced to get stickers from Jimmy, and Jimmy wasn't hostile to him, it was a neutral encounter.

Uh, you forgot something. He was there to threaten assault charges so that the police could use the pressure to get Jimmy to give up the information they thought he had. He suddenly abandoned this when Jimmy mentioned his associate.

 

[Perknose]

Uh, you forgot something. He was there to threaten assault charges so that the police could use the pressure to get Jimmy to give up the information they thought he had. He suddenly abandoned this when Jimmy mentioned his associate.

Bingo!

 

[destrekor]

Uh, you forgot something. He was there to threaten assault charges so that the police could use the pressure to get Jimmy to give up the information they thought he had. He suddenly abandoned this when Jimmy mentioned his associate.

I did forget that part. However, I think he abandoned it when he heard the story, not the associate. You could be right, I'd have to re-watch that scene and see if there are any clues (facial reaction cues) that give it away.

However, it could be that he is already providing muscle or some other services outside of his day job.

 

[CZroe]

...However, it could be that he is already providing muscle or some other services outside of his day job.

Exactly what I thought since before the series premiered (sneak peek).

 

[smackababy]

So far, I am actually pleasantly surprised by this show, despite being a bit annoyed with the surprise cameos.

 

[K1052]

I did forget that part. However, I think he abandoned it when he heard the story, not the associate. You could be right, I'd have to re-watch that scene and see if there are any clues (facial reaction cues) that give it away.

However, it could be that he is already providing muscle or some other services outside of his day job.

He asked Mike if he believed his story and he got a pretty sarcastic "yea, that's it". I think it's more probable that it's because he didn't rat, regardless of Nacho's involvement in anything Mike might be connected to.

 

[Perknose]

He asked Mike if he believed his story and he got a pretty sarcastic "yea, that's it". I think it's more probable that it's because he didn't rat, regardless of Nacho's involvement in anything Mike might be connected to.

Except this isn't real life, but a dramatic production put on within compressed time limits. True, a series enjoys more time than a one-off movie or play, but Chekhov's (perhaps apocryphal) maxim still applies:

If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off.

Point is, the writers intentionally had Mike back off, probably not for some general reason of non-rat respect, but because it foreshadows a far more specific, plot-point connection.

 

[K1052]

Point is, the writers intentionally had Mike back off, probably not for some general reason of non-rat respect, but because it foreshadows a far more specific, plot-point connection.

I don't think that's at odds with what I said. Mike may well have some use in mind for him that we aren't aware of yet playing into how they end up further connected. At least later he's pretty big on loyalty and knowing who can/can't be trusted to act predictably.

 

[Perknose]

So far, I am actually pleasantly surprised by this show, despite being a bit annoyed with the surprise cameos.

Do you still not get that these are not "cameos just for the sake of a cameo," but rather the plot-driven appearance of characters who are inextricably bound up in Saul's story, just as they were inextricably bound up in BB's story?

If they were true cameos, Mike or Tuco would appear once, briefly, and then not again. I confidently predict that this will not be the case.

 

[Perknose]

I don't think that's at odds with what I said. Mike may well have some use in mind for him that we aren't aware of yet playing into how they end up further connected. At least later he's pretty big on loyalty and knowing who can/can't be trusted to act predictably.

Yeah, also entirely possible. Just, under Chekov's rubric of dramatic economy, somewhat less likely.

 

[smackababy]

Do you still not get that these are not "cameos just for the sake of a cameo," but rather the plot-driven appearance of characters who are inextricably bound up in Saul's story, just as they were inextricably bound up in BB's story?

If they were true cameos, Mike or Tuco would appear once, briefly, and then not again. I confidently predict that this will not be the case.

Which is exactly what will make this terrible. Tuco's involvement was nonsensical and out of nowhere. Using familiar characters to set up the story is only weaving some ridiculous untanglable web of idiocy. There is zero reason for Tuco to be involved in the story, especially, considering Mike's other employer's involvement with the Mexican cartel.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Which is exactly what will make this terrible. Tuco's involvement was nonsensical and out of nowhere. Using familiar characters to set up the story is only weaving some ridiculous untanglable web of idiocy. There is zero reason for Tuco to be involved in the story, especially, considering Mike's other employer's involvement with the Mexican cartel.

If you find the conceit of including BB characters into BCS makes the show intolerable for you, then don't watch it. I am the biggest BB fan I know and so far I am very impressed with BCS. It remains to be seen whether it can reach the dizzying artistic heights that BB did, but so far they are off to a really impressive start.

 

[Black Octagon]

Enjoying the show so far. Waiting to see how ? It shapes up long-term before passing judgment

 

[Perknose]

There is zero reason for Tuco to be involved in the story, especially, considering Mike's other employer's involvement with the Mexican cartel.

Zero reason? Vince Gilligan emphatically disagrees.

I'm so torn as to whose opinion to go with. :hmm:

 

[smackababy]

If you find the conceit of including BB characters into BCS makes the show intolerable for you, then don't watch it. I am the biggest BB fan I know and so far I am very impressed with BCS. It remains to be seen whether it can reach the dizzying artistic heights that BB did, but so far they are off to a really impressive start.

I find it incredibly lacking in writing ability to just recycle and retcon characters into a story. I wouldn't mind actual cameos, but the idea that Saul interacted in a meaningful way with a lot of characters that appeared in BB is just silly and lazy. What made BB so good was the interaction with otherwise non connected characters and the surprises when some ended up in the same circle (Gus and the Mexican cartel, or Mike's involvement). Rather than some subtlety in introduction a gang banger who don't know and having him related in some way later on to Tuco, we are having extremely nonsensical plots thrown at us and Tuco being the center. Unless I missed something, Tuco and Saul little to no connections in BB. Why create some now and simply have them "not exist" later on down the line?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I find it incredibly lacking in writing ability to just recycle and retcon characters into a story. I wouldn't mind actual cameos, but the idea that Saul interacted in a meaningful way with a lot of characters that appeared in BB is just silly and lazy. What made BB so good was the interaction with otherwise non connected characters and the surprises when some ended up in the same circle (Gus and the Mexican cartel, or Mike's involvement). Rather than some subtlety in introduction a gang banger who don't know and having him related in some way later on to Tuco, we are having extremely nonsensical plots thrown at us and Tuco being the center. Unless I missed something, Tuco and Saul little to no connections in BB. Why create some now and simply have them "not exist" later on down the line?

I don't find it lazy in the least (much less "lacking in writing ability"). We know that somehow Saul goes from being the struggling Jimmy McGill to being the fully-realized, successful Saul Goodman (who, to quote Jesse, is not just a criminal lawyer, but a criminal lawyer). We know Saul's success arises, in whole or in part, from his relationships with the criminal element of Albuquerque. We also know that he has a relationship with Mike that pre-dates Mike working for Gus (since he sent Mike as a cleaner to help Jesse after Jane died in Season 2). I have no problem with the idea that we are seeing him interact with BB characters who (in the case of Mike) we already know he will work with as Saul or who (in the case of Tuco) are people he might well have come to know on his way up.

If, hypothetically, the show were to rely on seemingly random pop-ins by BB characters as the sole means of moving the plot along, I would share your concern. Instead, they seem to be used as a flavoring amidst unique, new plotlines and characters. I am fine with that.

 

[smackababy]

I don't find it lazy in the least (much less "lacking in writing ability"). We know that somehow Saul goes from being the struggling Jimmy McGill to being the fully-realized, successful Saul Goodman (who, to quote Jesse, is not just a criminal lawyer, but a criminal lawyer). We know Saul's success arises, in whole or in part, from his relationships with the criminal element of Albuquerque. We also know that he has a relationship with Mike that pre-dates Mike working for Gus (since he sent Mike as a cleaner to help Jesse after Jane died in Season 2). I have no problem with the idea that we are seeing him interact with BB characters who (in the case of Mike) we already know he will work with as Saul or who (in the case of Tuco) are people he might well have come to know on his way up.

If, hypothetically, the show were to rely on seemingly random pop-ins by BB characters as the sole means of moving the plot along, I would share your concern. Instead, they seem to be used as a flavoring amidst unique, new plotlines and characters. I am fine with that.

Mike gave the impression he was working with Saul while employed by Gus. At least, from the later interactions between the two, I always assumed Mike was always with Gus and just did some lighter contract work with Saul, for lack of a better term. Never that Mike switched sides.

I wouldn't mind BB characters coming up, especially ones with a relationship with Saul (like Mike and Gus), but the Tuco connection just makes no sense. Badger gets into trouble after the Tuco incident, which had Saul had some kind of involvement with, would have noticed Walter was Hiesenberg. It was in the same season Gus gets involved (which is before Jesse's GF is dead and Mike acts as a cleaner, as that is where Jesse got the money from).

 

[Carson Dyle]

I find it incredibly lacking in writing ability to just recycle and retcon characters into a story.

Good god. It's a damned TV show, not a staging of King Lear. Let it rest.

 

[smackababy]

Good god. It's a damned TV show, not a staging of King Lear. Let it rest.

How dare I criticize a show based on the successful writing and acting of the predecessor!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Mike gave the impression he was working with Saul while employed by Gus. At least, from the later interactions between the two, I always assumed Mike was always with Gus and just did some lighter contract work with Saul, for lack of a better term. Never that Mike switched sides.

I wouldn't mind BB characters coming up, especially ones with a relationship with Saul (like Mike and Gus), but the Tuco connection just makes no sense. Badger gets into trouble after the Tuco incident, which had Saul had some kind of involvement with, would have noticed Walter was Hiesenberg. It was in the same season Gus gets involved (which is before Jesse's GF is dead and Mike acts as a cleaner, as that is where Jesse got the money from).

I agree - I think it's entirely Mike worked both for Saul and Gus when we first met Mike, though it's hard to say. When Saul introduced Walt to Gus, he said something to the effect that he knew a guy, who knew a guy, who knew a guy, who knew Gus, which would seem to undermine the likelihood that Mike was already working for both of them (the connection then would obviously have been more direct), but it's possible Saul was intentionally misstating the nature of his connection to Gus, and in any case Mike's allegiances were always left fairly vague. As I recall Walt first learned that Mike was working for Gus in the scene with the wonderful Mike monologue in "Half Measures" - prior to that he had thought Mike worked only for Saul.

I am confused by what you're saying in your second paragraph.

At this point we don't know whether Saul will have any significant further interaction with Tuco, and I expect he won't. The relationship that seems more likely to be lasting is the one with Nacho (and I'm sure we will learn more about that tonight).

Badger was not arrested until after Tuco was dead, and it didn't appear that Walt and Jesse had worked with Tuco for more than a month or two before that happened. I see no reason to think that Saul would have had any relationship with Tuco during that brief period that would cause him to know that Walt was Heisenberg (and remember, Tuco only learned Heisenberg's identity at the hideout in Mexico, just before he died). I never got the sense Saul knew much about the ins and outs of the cartel - as I recall he didn't even know who Tio Salamanca was when they were discussing him at the very end of Season 4.

 

[HN]

Good god. It's a damned TV show, not a staging of King Lear. Let it rest.

seems like a fairly well thought out discussion of the show, both pros and cons. if the multi-paragraphed posts don't mean anything to you just scroll past them.