Better Mid Gen HW Approach: Sony or MS?

[magomago]

Sony has the weaker upgrade, but it'll be out a full year earlier than Microsoft.

MS takes the delay, but has a clear console winner in terms of ability- Sony is now in the weaker console position.

Unclear if these consoles will add another 6 years of life, or if its really a stop gap for the next 2-3 years prior to PS5/Xbox4.

I want to say the MS approach will win (I <3 specs), but a year head start is a lot of time for Sony, and most of the general public does not care about specs.

 

[sweenish]

"does not care about specs"

That's all this generation has talked about. 180 lines of resolution.

I doubt there will be a "next" generation anymore. MS and Sony have done what Valve couldn't, and that's bring PC gaming into the living room.

 

[Pepperc]

I think Sony will win the Pro/Scorpio fight, unless 4k VR takes off. Consoles are usually viewed from a recliner or couch 10ish feet from the screen. At that distance, 4k is almost indistinguishable from 1080p. Sony's 1440p, plus upscale, will look great from there. VR is a different animal though. It's up close and personal, and 1080 spread out over a person's entire field of view isn't enough. 4k, and even 8k, will look much better. If 4k VR gets popular, Scorpio could win with it's stronger hw. If VR catches on, the console race continues. If it doesn't, this could be the last console gen. My 2c.

 

[ElFenix]

Sony has the weaker upgrade, but it'll be out a full year earlier than Microsoft.

MS takes the delay, but has a clear console winner in terms of ability- Sony is now in the weaker console position.

Unclear if these consoles will add another 6 years of life, or if its really a stop gap for the next 2-3 years prior to PS5/Xbox4.

I want to say the MS approach will win (I <3 specs), but a year head start is a lot of time for Sony, and most of the general public does not care about specs.

iphone has kinda showed us that so long as you keep the number of hardware targets low and compatibility 100%, you can refresh these things fairly often. doing so may not be desirable if you're in the razor business, but it may be possible if you can at least break even on hardware. so get a refresh every 2-3 years and drop support for old ones 6 or 7years on down the line.

however, some of this is due to 4k being new, and people wanting *something* to do with their ginormous 4k sets. if 4k hadn't come around both MS and sony might have been content to stand pat with the consoles they had. so hard to tell if they'll permanently change strategy or not.

another issue, there may not be another die shrink for 4 or 5 years.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Sony's new Pro is almost at RX470 performance specs and I think that's acceptable for what they are doing. HDR is a bigger upgrade than 4k resolution and their method of scaling 1440p to 4k is supposed to be really high quality making the difference between the upscaled picture and the native picture using the same base textures etc pretty tough to see. Also we have to remember that higher performance will most likely equate to higher cost. Scorpio, if it can get the numbers they claim will be a good bit more expensive. I also don't see how they can take a console with less raw performance than a GTX1070 and play games natively in 4k at good framerates unless they are targeting 30fps. What I mean by that is if you take the latest titles and play them in 4k on a GTX1070 with a fairly high end CPU, likely one that is more powerful than what will be in the console with more memory too, 4k at Very High/Ultra probably averages 40fps. So consider that maybe the GPU in Scorpio can average 30fps under the same conditions and gains 10fps due to low level access on the console with no driver overhead from the OS so it also gets 40fps average. There will be times it dips well below 30fps and that will be noticeable. I assume they will just lock to 30fps like they do currently. Wouldn't we agree that rendering below 4k and scaling it up to get us to 60fps if possible would be desireable? This is under the assumption that they won't sacrifice on the graphics quality.

Then we have to take into account the games. Remove all the games that will be on both consoles and all the games that get yearly releases and see what is left. That's where the real battle will be and for my money I'm going with Playstation on that one. The upcoming titles for the PS4 have me more excited than the Xbox exclusives. It's tough for me to even call them exclusive to Xbox because they are coming to PC which I still feel is a mistake on Microsoft's part. Take all your system sellers and put them on Windows day and date? Probably good for their business but not so good for the Xbox brand. I don't need an Xbox console and won't be subscribing to XBL Gold either. I'll be able to play Gears4, Forza Horizon 3, Recore, and Scalebound on my PC. I will not be able to play The Last Guardian, Persona 5, Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War, World of Final Fantasy, Gravity Rush 2, or Days Gone anywhere other than PS4. That's really a deciding factor for me personally. I don't expect everyone to buy these games on PC but the fact that I can really made owning an Xbox One at this time not worth it.

I guess what I'm saying here is you can check every box on a spec sheet and have the best hardware but if I am not compelled to buy the console because the games are available on my computer with even more powerful hardware available to me, it makes it a tough sell.

 

[HOOfan 1]

how prevalent are HDR 4K TVs with low input latency? How affordable are they?

How about computer monitors?

 

[cmdrdredd]

how prevalent are HDR 4K TVs with low input latency? How affordable are they?

How about computer monitors?

Monitors I can't say but 4K tvs with pretty low input lag are pretty easily obtainable. Affordable is relative though. What one might consider affordable for a tv someone else might find to be too expensive. My tv has 24ms of input lag, the newer Samsung models have as little as 21 or 22ms. One of the Vizio models has under 20ms. The catch is that many tvs can have low lag in game mode but the lag jumps up when in hdr mode. Vizio locks their low lag mode to a specific hdmi input that doesn't accept hdr. The other ports can be as high as 50ms. The LG e6 oled has 34ms in game mode but 54ms when hdr kicks on. Many Samsung models though get under 24ms of lag even when hdr is being used. Anything under 30ms is considered good for a tv and near 20ms or even under is great. There are not any tvs that have input lag numbers like Asus gaming monitors and others.

So hdr gaming might be a big deal but it will come with compromises unless you have a Samsung tv right now. I don't even want to imagine the lag from a projector in hdr mode.

This is why I think the games will make the difference. Most people still use 1080p and the market isn't large enough for 4K to make a real difference. I think the 60fps at 1080p potential will be the bigger deal for most. My setup is not common. Very few gamers have a 4K tv, fewer have one with hdr and those that do will have high input lag in hdr unless they have one of a few models.

 

[HOOfan 1]

Apparently some of the console exclusive games aren't even being made with engines capable of 60fps. Digital Foundry said Guerrilla Games said as much of the Engine they are using for Horizon. Naughty Dog obviously uses engines capable of it though, because Uncharted 4 multiplayer is 60fps and Last of Us Remastered is 60 fps.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Apparently some of the console exclusive games aren't even being made with engines capable of 60fps. Digital Foundry said Guerrilla Games said as much of the Engine they are using for Horizon. Naughty Dog obviously uses engines capable of it though, because Uncharted 4 multiplayer is 60fps and Last of Us Remastered is 60 fps.

There can be patches to remove frame limiters though. It all depends on what the dev wants to do.

 

[rancherlee]

Really hard to say but I have a feeling that the Scorpio will pull back some market share when it comes out, the Pro shot itself in the food with no UHD Bluray IMO. I think both the Pro and the Scorpio will be long lived and there will be a "refreshed" new console every 2-3 years with backwards compatibility for 2-3 generations from both Sony and Microsoft.

 

[KentState]

MS has a system in the works that is a year out and barely 4k@30fps capable. Sony's system is barely relevant, but 4k and HDR sets are not widely adopted so it's not a huge deal. At that point, Sony is much closer to the release of a true 4k machine and MS is just getting out of the gate.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Really hard to say but I have a feeling that the Scorpio will pull back some market share when it comes out, the Pro shot itself in the food with no UHD Bluray IMO. I think both the Pro and the Scorpio will be long lived and there will be a "refreshed" new console every 2-3 years with backwards compatibility for 2-3 generations from both Sony and Microsoft.

I disagree because they are game consoles and look how much success Sony has had by not deviating far from that. The number of people who can actually use a uhd blu-ray player is too small to make a difference.

 

[purbeast0]

I think this whole mid-cycle upgrade is a terrible idea for the industry as it just fractures the install base.

I'm already kind of bored of the console gaming as of the past few years other than some very niche games, but if this trend continues my interest in console gaming will probably dwindle even more than it already has. Gimmie the days of just having 1 console that is the same it's entire generation and just put out quality games for it. I'd take that any day over them just pushing out new "upgraded" versions of the current consoles when they can hardly even put out games that interest me.

 

[KentState]

I think this whole mid-cycle upgrade is a terrible idea for the industry as it just fractures the install base.

I'm already kind of bored of the console gaming as of the past few years other than some very niche games, but if this trend continues my interest in console gaming will probably dwindle even more than it already has. Gimmie the days of just having 1 console that is the same it's entire generation and just put out quality games for it. I'd take that any day over them just pushing out new "upgraded" versions of the current consoles when they can hardly even put out games that interest me.

How does this fracture the install base? Not like Android where you have 20 implementations of an OS, Apple with multiple resolutions and SoC's or PC where you have millions of software/hardware/driver combinations. Two or three levels of hardware that plays all software is no different than having a GTX 1060 vs 1070 vs 1080.

 

[purbeast0]

How does this fracture the install base? Not like Android where you have 20 implementations of an OS, Apple with multiple resolutions and SoC's or PC where you have millions of software/hardware/driver combinations. Two or three levels of hardware that plays all software is no different than having a GTX 1060 vs 1070 vs 1080.

Yeah I guess you are right, and didn't they say that online the resolutions/graphics would be the same between the 2?

It does mean that now games that are "pro" will take more time to develop, in a market where we already have any new quality IP's. But I'm sure we'll see a bunch of UHD remakes of last gen games coming out.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yeah I guess you are right, and didn't they say that online the resolutions/graphics would be the same between the 2?

It does mean that now games that are "pro" will take more time to develop, in a market where we already have any new quality IP's. But I'm sure we'll see a bunch of UHD remakes of last gen games coming out.

The graphics and resolution aren't exactly the same. The Pro can render games at 1440p and scale them up to 4k where the standard model is limited to 1080p and in some cases not quite 1080p. The textures and such will likely be the same because they are already using many assets that are beyond 1080p. I doubt we will see UHD remakes at all. What we will see is developers releasing patches to unlock HDR in their games and other goodies for the Pro (like increased frame rate). I don't believe development time will be affected in a considerable way. Naughty Dog said that a patch for Uncharted 4 is underway and should be one of the first released.

The game software is the same between the Pro and original PS4 so there is no fragmentation of the user base there. During the reveal Sony said that all PS4 games will work on any PS4 model. The only difference will be the console playing the game at a higher resolution and perhaps a more stable or higher frame rate in single player titles. Microsoft said Scorpio will play all the Xbox One titles but they were kind of coy on the issue of all new titles playing on the old Xbox. They said something like "that's something that the developer would have to decide" which if taken at face value means that some games will be Scorpio exclusive if they want.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/xbox-scorpio-release-date-specs-news-rumours-4k-vr

Initially, Microsoft stated that Scorpio wouldn't have platform exclusives, but that position isn't as clear cut as we first thought. All current Xbox One games will work on the upgraded console, but Microsoft isn't ruling out exclusives.

Speaking in an interview, a senior Microsoft spokesperson said it was 'up to developers' to decide if they want to develop games exclusively for Project Scorpio.

"I don't know about that. We'll see. It's up to the game development community; what do they want to do," said Shannon Loftis, GM of Game Publishing at Microsoft.

 

[purbeast0]

Aren't you a developer? You're delusional if you think making sure a game runs flawless on 2 different pieces of hardware isn't going to impact development time.

 

[zerocool84]

The big negative for Microsoft is that their faster console is a year away. That's a long time to get people to wait. Maybe six months but not a year.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Aren't you a developer? You're delusional if you think making sure a game runs flawless on 2 different pieces of hardware isn't going to impact development time.

The os is the same, the API is the same, the hardware is basically overclocked versions of what they had before. They make one game and it runs across both consoles. Maybe they add a flag to determine which console it is for the increased resolution or frame rate. That's really it. HDR is on both too. This should be easier than getting an app to run on the new phone since there are fewer real changes. The OS takes care of most of it. The games textures and models etc don't change. At least that's how it has been described.

 

[cmdrdredd]

The big negative for Microsoft is that their faster console is a year away. That's a long time to get people to wait. Maybe six months but not a year.

Maybe but I still think this is dependent on software being there. They didn't announce a new Halo but if they do at next year's e3 they could get some support if they have other exclusives. For me they would have to be available nowhere else though.

 

[Aikouka]

The os is the same, the API is the same, the hardware is basically overclocked versions of what they had before. They make one game and it runs across both consoles. Maybe they add a flag to determine which console it is for the increased resolution or frame rate. That's really it. HDR is on both too. This should be easier than getting an app to run on the new phone since there are fewer real changes. The OS takes care of most of it. The games textures and models etc don't change. At least that's how it has been described.

They'd still have to playtest both versions to ensure that they work correctly. Just because the API is the same doesn't mean there isn't a bug in the API. Of course, fixing it wouldn't be their problem, but the last thing they'd want to do is ship out a game and have it unplayable at launch.

 

[purbeast0]

The os is the same, the API is the same, the hardware is basically overclocked versions of what they had before. They make one game and it runs across both consoles. Maybe they add a flag to determine which console it is for the increased resolution or frame rate. That's really it. HDR is on both too. This should be easier than getting an app to run on the new phone since there are fewer real changes. The OS takes care of most of it. The games textures and models etc don't change. At least that's how it has been described.

You basically just described a portion of PC gaming. They all run Windows, the API's are all the same, the hardware is basically just different CPU speeds. I know a big area of difference is graphics cards though, but even if those were all the same across all boards, you still have a lot of different hardware. Sure it's only 2 different versions, but you still need to test it out on everything, and there 100% will be bugs that pop up on one and not the other. That's the nature of software development across different pieces of hardware.

It's just like iPhones - they all have the same OS, same API, hardware is basically the same with different CPU speeds and RAM. You can assume that if it runs on iOS 10 on one version it will work on all versions running iOS 10, but I can tell you from experience that definitely is not the case.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You basically just described a portion of PC gaming. They all run Windows, the API's are all the same, the hardware is basically just different CPU speeds. I know a big area of difference is graphics cards though, but even if those were all the same across all boards, you still have a lot of different hardware. Sure it's only 2 different versions, but you still need to test it out on everything, and there 100% will be bugs that pop up on one and not the other. That's the nature of software development across different pieces of hardware.

It's just like iPhones - they all have the same OS, same API, hardware is basically the same with different CPU speeds and RAM. You can assume that if it runs on iOS 10 on one version it will work on all versions running iOS 10, but I can tell you from experience that definitely is not the case.

Luckily there are no drivers to contend with. Still, it shouldn't be that big of an issue in the end. I think maybe this is why Last Guardian is delayed a bit, to make sure it uses HDR etc. It was probably almost done.

 

[purbeast0]

Luckily there are no drivers to contend with. Still, it shouldn't be that big of an issue in the end. I think maybe this is why Last Guardian is delayed a bit, to make sure it uses HDR etc. It was probably almost done.

I don't think anyone said it is going to be a big issue, just that it's going to add a chunk more of development time, in an era where it already takes years for a decent new IP to come out.

 

[cmdrdredd]

A "chunk" can mean anything. How much time are you suggesting? From a consumer's point of view adding a couple months onto what was already a 2 year wait isn't that much.