Bible Mandates stoning of rebellious children.

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Yes or No.

No debate. Just Yes or No. Follow directions?


Deu21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

Deu21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deu21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (KJV)
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Yes or No.

No debate. Just Yes or No. Follow directions?


Deu21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

Deu21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deu21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (KJV)

True or not, it is against our laws.

 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Old Testament is not what modern day Christians live by.

Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

Thread Closed.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Yes or No.

No debate. Just Yes or No. Follow directions?


Deu21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

Deu21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deu21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (KJV)

Certainly not.

(The old testament cannot be followed letter for letter. therefore the onus is on the xians to explain why they are hanging on to some bits of the OT, & discarding the rest.)


 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
126
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Mill
Old Testament is not what modern day Christians live by.

Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

Thread Closed.

He contravened your explicit directions. What does the Bible say about going Off topic? Do we get to stone him?



He is correct though, it's part of the Old Testament.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Mill
Old Testament is not what modern day Christians live by.

Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

Thread Closed.

BUT .. don't Jews still follow OLD Testament teachings?
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
>Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

the NT is not followed letter for letter by contemporary xians, either. Also, many xians are perfectly happy to drag out the OT when they feel the need to condemn certain things. What is the point of this thread?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Mill
Old Testament is not what modern day Christians live by.

Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

Thread Closed.

BUT .. don't Jews still follow OLD Testament teachings?

Not sure. I think Orthodox Jews and others follow religious scripture similar to the Old Testament, but I don't think they follow it word for word.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Mill
Old Testament is not what modern day Christians live by.

Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

Thread Closed.

Many xians claim Jesus revoked certain of the old testament laws, but that some of the more important so-called moral laws from the OT are still to be followed, such as the laws condemning homosexuals. However they are half-assed about even this, rarely have I encountered an xian actually advocating death for homosexuals.
 

glenn beck

Platinum Member
Oct 6, 2004
2,381
0
0
The Nature of the Case

First, the person in view is a not a small child but a grown "son." The Hebrew term for "son" (ben) employed here is indefinite. It is sometimes used of children of both sexes (Ex. 21:5) but most often of the male offspring of parents, and that is clearly the sense in this text. Of itself, the word "son" does not give any indication of age. It can refer to a child or a young man (cf. 1 Sam. 4:4; 19:1; 1 Kings 1:33); age must be determined from the context.

In this case, the son in view is not a child, for the sins brought forth in testimony to show his contumacious manner are gluttony and drunkenness (v. 20); hardly the sins of the average 6 or 10 year old. The case also indicates that the parents have tried to restrain their son, but all their efforts have failed (vv. 18, 20); specifying that he is physically beyond their control. Furthermore, the parents bring their son to the magistrates to judge the matter (v. 19); hence, the son would have opportunity to speak on his own behalf. All of this indicates that the "son" in question is no mere child but, rather, a young man at least in his middle teens or older. As Wright observes, "The law is not talking about naughty children but about seriously delinquent young adults."3

Second, the problems associated with this son are severe. This is not the case of a child who has failed to do his chores, spoken back to his parents, or even committed a serious act of disobedience, but of a son of dissolute character who is in full rebellion to the authority of his parents--he holds them and their word in contempt. The text says that the son is "stubborn" and "rebellious" (vv. 18, 20). Both of these descriptive terms are active participles thus indicating habitual action. The son does not display a stubborn streak now and then, or act rebelliously from time to time, but is continuously stubborn and rebellious.

The word "stubborn" refers to one who is obstinate in their resistance to authority. It is used in the Old Testament of a wild untamed heifer (Hos. 4:16), of an immoral woman who has cast off restraint and indulges in lust (Prov. 7:11), and of Israel as a stubborn people who would not submit to God's authority (Ps. 78:8; Isa. 1:23).

The word "rebellious" means, literally, to strike or lash, and is used of those who contend against authority and refuse to heed their words. The "rebellious" individual lashes out in contempt against those who have authority over them verbally, and perhaps even physically.

In light of this, it is important to note that the Law of the Covenant prescribes death for anyone who strikes his parents (Ex. 21:15) or curses his parents (Ex. 21:17). There is, therefore, reason to suppose that the son in this case law has broken the Law of the Covenant in one or both of these ways. The parents also describe the character of their son as being a "glutton" and a "drunkard." These sins are put forth as examples of a life lived without restraint.

In the case of such rebellion and riotous living, and after all attempts at discipline and control have failed, the parents are to bring their son before the magistrates for judgment. If the magistrates concur in the parents' estimate of the situation, they are to order the men of the city to stone the rebel with stones so that he dies (vv. 20-21). The purpose to be served in the execution of the rebellious son is to "put evil away from among you" and that all will "hear and fear" (v.21).
The Real Meaning

Therefore, the law of Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is not about stoning disobedient children. The Bible does not instruct parents to use stoning in dealing with the rebellious nature and disobedience of their children, but to use the rod and reproof (Prov. 29:15). Children are to be trained from a young age by consistent and loving discipline so that the foolishness that is bound up in them can be driven out (Prov. 22:15), and that they will learn to honor and obey their parents and all those whom God has placed in authority over them.

The case law in discussion does not apply to young children during the formative years, but applies, instead, to a grown son (and by extension to a daughter as well) who, for whatever reason, has rebelled against the authority of his parents and will not profit from any of their discipline nor obey their voice in any thing. It is a case of habitual contempt of parental authority characterized by a young adult living a life without moral restraint who lashes out verbally and/or physically against his mother and father. It is a case where the evil character of the son is apparently set, and there is no reasonable hope of him ever changing.

The kind of rebellion against parental authority described in this case law is called "evil" (v. 21). It is evil because it holds both God and His law (i.e., the command to honor parents) in derision. It is evil because it threatens the very existence of the family, and therefore, of society itself. It is evil because it signals the rejection of all God-ordained authority and leads to civil and ecclesiastical disorder. God considers it such a dangerous evil that it must be extinguished by death at the hands of the civil magistrate.4
 

RobCur

Banned
Oct 4, 2002
3,076
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Mill
Old Testament is not what modern day Christians live by.

Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

Thread Closed.

He contravened your explicit directions. What does the Bible say about going Off topic? Do we get to stone him?



He is correct though, it's part of the Old Testament.
old testament, new testamend, what the difference??? I follow neither and I am a atheist.

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: aidanjm
>Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

the NT is not followed letter for letter by contemporary xians, either. Also, many xians are perfectly happy to drag out the OT when they feel the need to condemn certain things. What is the point of this thread?
Many on this forum are more than happy to bash Christians in general any time anything remotely religious is even mentioned in a thread.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: aidanjm
>Thank you. You answered my question. It is not part of the New testament.

the NT is not followed letter for letter by contemporary xians, either. Also, many xians are perfectly happy to drag out the OT when they feel the need to condemn certain things. What is the point of this thread?
Many on this forum are more than happy to bash Christians in general any time anything remotely religious is even mentioned in a thread.

If by 'bashed' you mean taken to task for their hypocrisy, then I am all for it.
 
May 10, 2001
2,669
0
0
When you say bible I presume you mean the bible both new and old testament. Jesus came to complete the law, to make it so that the barbaric religion of the ages could be set aside and we could all have a personal relationship with God.

The church is any time you?ve got 2 Christians, the temple is your body, your spirit belongs to God and salvation and forgiveness is unending.

So no, death for any act isn?t demanded by the bible any longer because Christ has completed the law ending the biblical requirement for human punishment of spiritual offences.

Now, stealing and killing aren?t just spiritual but socially negative actions, the sort of thing that it?s reasonable to keep and enforce human law against. A kid talking back to his parents on the other hand has no place having a law made about it.


the NT is not followed letter for letter by contemporary xians, either.
you are confused.

The new-testament is not about setting up a new set of laws, but about freeing us *in Jesus* from the law. The new "law" is that 1.) we love God with everything we are and 2.) we love each other. Each man has his own spiritual walk in his humble submission to Jesus, but because each person has there own spiritual level doesn't mean they aren?t "following" the new-testament.

Not "following" our commandment to love God and our fellow man is something that all humans, on a daily basis, do. The only question is: "do you humbly submit to God and accept freely given salvation through Jesus" if you do, then you try, and in chasing after the Lord we please him.

It's not our actions that save or un-save us, it's our faith that determines this. Christian's arn't better people, they just have faith in Christ.

if it's the word of god, why should there be a new and old testament???
fulfillment, obviously no one can live up to the standards of God, so by seeing this we can understand that we must rely no on our own righteous actions but on the grace of God through faith in his sacrifice of Jesus.

I follow neither and I am a atheist.
all people of any moral character follow the teachings of Jesus, even if they are Buddhists, Moslem, or even contrarian Atheists.

Salvation, insurance from the cleansing fire, is simply having faith in and abiding in Jesus.

However they are half-assed about even this, rarely have I encountered an xian actually advocating death for homosexuals.
killing or even repressing anyone for purly spiritual problems isn't loveing your fellow man.

True or not, it is against our laws.
the NT clearly says that we are to live by the laws of the land we are in.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
So here I am holding a 2 pound stone, and I've spent all day practicing my 'fastball' . . .
Give me a call if your brat gives you any crap !
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
i believe the passage directly before condemning homosexuality mentions that adulterers should be stoned and that those who are married and unfaithful should be exiled.
now...i read this particular passage years ago and dont really recall it in vivid detail. just that the homosexual-verboten part is dangerously close to other, very strict punishments.
 
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