Biblical Views on Abortion

[fierydemise]

It is obvious to me that many of you are far more knowledgeable on the New Testament then I am. Abortion is one of the hot button issues with many Christians and I want to know what biblical passages support such vehement views on the issue.

Now I don't want people coming in here with anti-Christian posts or anti-abortion posts that have no biblical support, I want to look at abortion from a purely biblical sense.

 

[2Xtreme21]

Exd 20:13 -- Thou shalt not kill.

(Let this be on record that I'm not against abortion... just answering your question. )

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

There is no direct Biblical support for an anti-abortion doctrine. Because of this, a lot of debate has ensued.

First of all, where do you draw the line? Birth? Even non-Christians agree for the most part that 8-month-old unborns shouldn't be aborted. What about 7-month olds? 7-weeks? This is the slippery slope argument.

Another argument is that passages discussing unborn childred (Psalms, Luke) refer to fetuses in a positive light. This implies that God values these children, his creation. If true, we must not destroy them.

Another way would be to look to church traditions, passed down since the resurrection of Christ. The Didache (c. 50-120) says plainly, "you shall not murder a child by abortion." Other early sources, most notably the Apocalypse of Peter and Tertullian, agree on this point quite directly. Do we take accept these traditions in abscence of an authoritative source? Many believe that to be best.

 

[Veramocor]

Old Testament has some good quotes:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." Exodus 21:22-23

Basically if a man hurts a woman and causes her to miscarry (equivalent to an abortion) the man has to pay money.

This section is interesting because it says that a fair punishment for taking a life is losing your own life. If the Bible considers a fetus a full life why shouldn't a man causing the death of a fetus be senentenced to death? Instead the bible says the man can get his ass kicked and pay a fine.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Old Testament has some good quotes:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." Exodus 21:22-23

Basically if a man hurts a woman and causes her to miscarry (equivalent to an abortion) the man has to pay money.

This section is interesting because it says that a fair punishment for taking a life is losing your own life. If the Bible considers a fetus a full life why shouldn't a man causing the death of a fetus be senentenced to death? Instead the bible says the man can get his ass kicked and pay a fine.

Interesting quote, but even it is too vague to draw such an implication.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Jeremiah 1:5


"Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

This would be the reason most christians believe that life begins at conception.

 

[engineereeyore]

I would say this. The Bible is not going to contain many passage specifically referring to abortion due to the fact that it wasn't that big of an issue at that time. It just didn't happen very often.

However, I do believe abortion has it's purposes. These would be cases where the life of the mother is in jeopardy, or the life of the child, rape has occurred, or there is some other physical problem. If none of these cases exist, then what is the purpose of the abortion? Most of the time it is because of a sexual relationship that was not formed within the bonds of marriage, and this is specifically prohibited in the Bible.

So I don't know that you will find much in the Bible to support the "evil" of abortion, but rather you will find rules to govern the use of abortion based upon the commandments given.

 

[slash196]

I don't really have anything to contribute to what has been said so far, except to say that I think it's quite funny that the Bible is considered the be-all, end-all of moral authority.

 

[Lemon law]

One has to understand that in Biblical times there was no real technology for abortion----short of killing the mother or repeatedly kicking some poor gal in the belly until she aborted.

Now we have a fuller understanding of the reproductive process and can safely medically abort by physical and chemical means.-----Yet we can have spokesmen and women up to and including some infalliable man in Vatican city who tells us what is moral or not----even if the bible is near silent on the topic--up to and including the prevention of pregnancy by condoms.----at least they do not require all human females of reproductive age to offer themselves to all males so that they can become pregnant.---abstienance is actually permitted.

I can understand any who feel that aborting an unborn fetus is akin to murder----but unless one is absolutely unwilling to make exceptions for rape, insest, and the life of the mother, I cannot see these people as anything but on a slippery slope in any moral arguement.

I would rather see these people make genuine efforts to see that all children born receive the best support possible from the family and the larger community.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
One has to understand that in Biblical times there was no real technology for abortion----short of killing the mother or repeatedly kicking some poor gal in the belly until she aborted.

Now we have a fuller understanding of the reproductive process and can safely medically abort by physical and chemical means.-----Yet we can have spokesmen and women up to and including some infalliable man in Vatican city who tells us what is moral or not----even if the bible is near silent on the topic--up to and including the prevention of pregnancy by condoms.----at least they do not require all human females of reproductive age to offer themselves to all males so that they can become pregnant.---abstienance is actually permitted.

That the Bible fails to speak directly about abortion doesn't mean we can't infer what God wants from other outlets. See my post above for further details.

I can understand any who feel that aborting an unborn fetus is akin to murder----but unless one is absolutely unwilling to make exceptions for rape, insest, and the life of the mother, I cannot see these people as anything but on a slippery slope in any moral arguement.

Why not? Supposing abortion really is murder, how would that change if the father had raped the mother, or if the parents were siblings? Murder is murder. The only logical exception would be to save the life of the mother, but even then every effort must be taken to preserve the life of the child.

 

[MicroChrome]

Well..... that's all fine and dandy... But no one is kicking or no man is killing, the woman is doing this willing fully. Wanting an abortion.

Uhh, Men are not "striving" for this. This is her choice and hers alone. Millions are taking the pill every year across the world on their own behalf. So none of these quotes pull any strings for me ... We are listening to words written by men who still believed the world was flat...

 

[AragornTK]

I personally feel about abortion the same way I feel about censorship.

It's all about responsibility. If you're using abortion to get out of what you got yourself into, it's unforgivable. If you're raped, then it's really out of your control, but don't wait to find out if you're pregnant. While you're at the hospital getting examined, just get some form of abortion before it goes any farther than it has.

I know someone who doesn't believe a child is alive until it is born. But she thinks very highly of all that stuff about listening to soothing music while pregnant, because the BABY likes it. Does that seem a little contradictory to anyone?

 

[Tab]

fierydemise, you might want to try, Internet Infidels - Online Forums there are a ton of secular theologians on the board, be sure to search before you post.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: AragornTK
I personally feel about abortion the same way I feel about censorship.

It's all about responsibility. If you're using abortion to get out of what you got yourself into, it's unforgivable. If you're raped, then it's really out of your control, but don't wait to find out if you're pregnant. While you're at the hospital getting examined, just get some form of abortion before it goes any farther than it has.

:thumbsup:

The difference in rape is that the choice to be pregnant was never allowed. The absolute foundation of the gospel is free will. Everyone must be allowed to make a choice. One would hope they would keep the baby and give it up for adoption, but there are obviously situations where this isn't possible.

MicroChrome, just so you know, religion determined the world to be round hundreds of years previous to the birth of Christ (see book of Isaiah). It was science who believed it to be flat. Though the actual idea that anyone ever believed it to be flat is still under debate. Galileo was ridiculed for believing the Earth was not the center of the universe, not for believing the Earth to be round.

 

[Lemon law]

Lets also bring up other abortion reasons----you find out later the baby will be born with a birth defect.
Mongolism of some such----tests that can only be preformed after the pregnancy is somewhat well underway.-----or could you abort because the sex of the child is not what you want?----Lots of slippery slopes inherent in these questions.

Or we can just say its basically up to the mother---its her body.

No matter what your position------someone will say you are wrong.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Old Testament has some good quotes:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." Exodus 21:22-23

Basically if a man hurts a woman and causes her to miscarry (equivalent to an abortion) the man has to pay money.

This section is interesting because it says that a fair punishment for taking a life is losing your own life. If the Bible considers a fetus a full life why shouldn't a man causing the death of a fetus be senentenced to death? Instead the bible says the man can get his ass kicked and pay a fine.

That is a very interesting quote.. .. It seems that the mischief is the death of the child or a miscarriage?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Old Testament has some good quotes:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." Exodus 21:22-23

Basically if a man hurts a woman and causes her to miscarry (equivalent to an abortion) the man has to pay money.

This section is interesting because it says that a fair punishment for taking a life is losing your own life. If the Bible considers a fetus a full life why shouldn't a man causing the death of a fetus be senentenced to death? Instead the bible says the man can get his ass kicked and pay a fine.

But.. this passage does not say an abortion is wrong.. it says that if you commit a crime against a woman such as beating her and the child dies because of it then you will be punished

 

[Lemon law]

And today you go to an abortion clinics and pay the doctors a small fortune for a few minutes work.

See the fine idea works fine.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
The absolute foundation of the gospel is free will.

Ephesians 1?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
The absolute foundation of the gospel is free will.

Ephesians 1?

??? I'm failing to see the problem. Maybe you could be more specific.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
The absolute foundation of the gospel is free will.

Ephesians 1?

??? I'm failing to see the problem. Maybe you could be more specific.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.
9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength,
20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

EDIT: I've been drinking a bit, so my powers of articulation are somewhat dimmed. Even so, these are issues I've debated for years and years. You can be sure that, though I might be somewhat intoxicated now, I have put a great deal of sober thought into the topic.

Anyhoo, the point is, the idea of "free will" is unbiblical. Ephesians plainly tells us we are predestined. If you have any qualms about translation errors, you can look to other passages for support.

 

[engineereeyore]

I've read the chapter before, and even reread it twice now. I'm still failing to see what you feel contradicts my statement. I'm going to guess that you think predestination and God choosing us somehow takes away our ability to say no. Everyone has the right to say no, even to God. It doesn't affect him. God can always find someone else to do the job. It's only us that suffers from saying no. Consider Jonah.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
I've read the chapter before, and even reread it twice now. I'm still failing to see what you feel contradicts my statement. I'm going to guess that you think predestination and God choosing us somehow takes away our ability to say no. Everyone has the right to say no, even to God. It doesn't affect him. God can always find someone else to do the job. It's only us that suffers from saying no. Consider Jonah.

It's not a direct contradiction, no. However, there's just no Biblical support for your statement that "the absolute foundation of the gospel is free will." The Gospel is about forgiveness and grace. That is its foundation.

Good works do not come from man. Paul is very clear: "There is no one good." But he also says that Christians are God's "workmanship," and that he has "prepared in advance" our own supposed good works. In other words, we cannot work for good, but only the Holy Spirit, through us.

 

[dahunan]

I thought we were given free will to choose whether to follow God or the Devil and that was his plan because he loved us he gave us free will instead of being a dictator?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

It's not a direct contradiction, no. However, there's just no Biblical support for your statement that "the absolute foundation of the gospel is free will." The Gospel is about forgiveness and grace. That is its foundation.

If we didn't have free will, we would never sin, therefore never need forgiveness or grace. Good and evil, right and wrong, righteousness and sinfulness all depend on one thing. Free will.