Biblical Views on Abortion

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

It's not a direct contradiction, no. However, there's just no Biblical support for your statement that "the absolute foundation of the gospel is free will." The Gospel is about forgiveness and grace. That is its foundation.

If we didn't have free will, we would never sin, therefore never need forgiveness or grace. Good and evil, right and wrong, righteousness and sinfulness all depend on one thing. Free will.

Exactly! If we have free will, all we would do is sin! Free will is for sinners, not Christians.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

It's not a direct contradiction, no. However, there's just no Biblical support for your statement that "the absolute foundation of the gospel is free will." The Gospel is about forgiveness and grace. That is its foundation.

If we didn't have free will, we would never sin, therefore never need forgiveness or grace. Good and evil, right and wrong, righteousness and sinfulness all depend on one thing. Free will.

Exactly! If we have free will, all we would do is sin! Free will is for sinners, not Christians.

So, he only designed people he could control? How could anyone seek Jesus if they were already programmed to be Christians?

This is getting into scary fundie radical territory

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Exactly! If we have free will, all we would do is sin! Free will is for sinners, not Christians.

Wait, what?? Free will is not choosing to do wrong! Free will is having the ability to choose in the first place. Everyone chooses, Christian or non-Christian. Free will is for everyone.

Also, why would you imply that Christian are not sinners? Everyone has sinned and everyone will sin. That's why repentence is always available.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

I'm going to have to get back to you tomorrow.

Ugh, too much alcohol.

 

[dahunan]

I do actually think I follow what you are trying to say though... it is a hard thing to explain.. no judgement here.. see ya tomorrow

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I do actually think I follow what you are trying to say though... it is a hard thing to explain.. no judgement here.. see ya tomorrow

It's not the toughest of all concepts, but I've forgotten nearly all the pertinent Biblical references. I need to look them all up, which takes time and patience. I feel bad that I've forgotten them, and so I do want to re-memorize them all. However, now isn't exactly the greatest time to do that.

 

[AragornTK]

I get what you're saying, I feel the same way. God ordains us to do his work. Whether we actually do it or not is up to us.

But along the same lines of "freedom isn't free" life and the afterlife will be substantially better if you choose God's way, choosing to do things the other way comes at a price

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Veramocor
Old Testament has some good quotes:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." Exodus 21:22-23

Basically if a man hurts a woman and causes her to miscarry (equivalent to an abortion) the man has to pay money.

This section is interesting because it says that a fair punishment for taking a life is losing your own life. If the Bible considers a fetus a full life why shouldn't a man causing the death of a fetus be senentenced to death? Instead the bible says the man can get his ass kicked and pay a fine.

That is a very interesting quote.. .. It seems that the mischief is the death of the child or a miscarriage?

The death of the child is 'her fruit depart from her'. Mischief is if the mother is killed. So if the child is killed and the mother is ok then it is punishible by a fine the husband demands, but if the mother is killed then it's 'life for life'. So apparently the unborn child is not considered as equal to an adult and the life for life does not apply to it.

 

[sandorski]

There is more Biblical support for the JWs' Anti-Blood Transfusion belief than there is for the Anti-Abortion belief.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Ah, here it is...

Romans chap. 3:
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

And Eph. chap. 2:
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As you can see, the Bible is not completely clear on this issue, but the point seems to be that good works come from Christ. We are predestined for salvation and good works. God left us alone in the Garden, and we did the only thing we are capable of doing apart from God: we sinned. Only if God works through us can we work righteousness.

That is not immediately clear from the passages, but it is the natural conclusion.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
Ah, here it is...

Romans chap. 3:
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

And Eph. chap. 2:
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As you can see, the Bible is not completely clear on this issue, but the point seems to be that good works come from Christ. We are predestined for salvation and good works. God left us alone in the Garden, and we did the only thing we are capable of doing apart from God: we sinned. Only if God works through us can we work righteousness.

That is not immediately clear from the passages, but it is the natural conclusion.

Actually, I see it proving my point more than yours. God preparing work for us to do still does not remove the fact that we have to choose to do it. If we don't, God will simply choose another in our place.

Consider Abraham, the Children of Israel, King David, Jonah, ...etc. All these people were given a great opportunity and where prepared by the Lord. Some accepted these callings and lived up to them, some did not. Why? Because they had a choice. How can everything still work the way God intends if we have freedom of choice? Because God knows us, better than we know ourselves. He has a pretty good idea what choices we will make. However, he will never force us to make a specific choice. Obviously he hopes will make the right one, but he won't force us to. Why do you think bad things happen in the world? Not because God makes them happen, but because people are exercising their freedom of choice, which God has given them. Same reason good things happen, because people make the right choices.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
Ah, here it is...

Romans chap. 3:
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

And Eph. chap. 2:
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As you can see, the Bible is not completely clear on this issue, but the point seems to be that good works come from Christ. We are predestined for salvation and good works. God left us alone in the Garden, and we did the only thing we are capable of doing apart from God: we sinned. Only if God works through us can we work righteousness.

That is not immediately clear from the passages, but it is the natural conclusion.

Its almost as if you are arguing that there was no good done before JC. Or, at the very least, any good done before JC was purely coincidental to acts that were randomly happening.

 

[dahunan]

Do the Chinese have any mention of Christ throughout their ancient texts or was Jesus only interested in saving people in the middle east - I mean.. IF God is omnipotent then why didn't he spread his message to everyone.. don't tell me he didn't have a map and couldn't find all of his peoples?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Do the Chinese have any mention of Christ throughout their ancient texts or was Jesus only interested in saving people in the middle east - I mean.. IF God is omnipotent then why didn't he spread his message to everyone.. don't tell me he didn't have a map and couldn't find all of his peoples?

Actually, the Lord made a covenant to first bestow his gospel upon the Children of Israel, one of many promises given to Abraham and his seed. Therefore, when Christ came to Earth, he gave his full Gospel to the tribes of Israel, and then sent them out to give this message to all, including those not of the original 12 tribes of Israel. However, if you remember, the tribes of Israel were split around 700 B.C. After being taken captive into Babylon, only the tribes of Judah and Levi returned to Israel. The other 10 tribes where spread out. The Bible covers only the appearance of the Savior to the tribes of Judah and Levi. So the question is, did he appear to the other 10 tribes as he covenanted to do, and if so, did they keep a record of his appearance? If you wish to know the answer, read the Book of Mormon, which contains a record of his appearance to some of these people.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Actually, I see it proving my point more than yours. God preparing work for us to do still does not remove the fact that we have to choose to do it. If we don't, God will simply choose another in our place.

Consider Abraham, the Children of Israel, King David, Jonah, ...etc. All these people were given a great opportunity and where prepared by the Lord. Some accepted these callings and lived up to them, some did not. Why? Because they had a choice. How can everything still work the way God intends if we have freedom of choice? Because God knows us, better than we know ourselves. He has a pretty good idea what choices we will make. However, he will never force us to make a specific choice. Obviously he hopes will make the right one, but he won't force us to. Why do you think bad things happen in the world? Not because God makes them happen, but because people are exercising their freedom of choice, which God has given them. Same reason good things happen, because people make the right choices.

Maybe. Like I said, the Bible isn't really clear on this issue. I rather think the more obvious interpretation is that we don't have free will, and that God created everything to adhere to his specific design. Take Romans 9, for instance:

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Notice the language, here. Similar language appears in Exodus, with Moses and the Pharoah. God "hardens" the hearts of unbelievers so that they will not believe. It's not the person's choice, therefore, but God's. Continuing:

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

This is the first natural question to such an idea. If God makes us reject Christ, is that fair? The answer:

20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath?prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

Again, it doesn't say right out that we don't have free will, but the implication is very strong, I think.

 

[dahunan]

Would this mean that the 1.3 billion Chinese are not part of the tribes of Israel or are they part Israeli too

 

[engineereeyore]

hurtstotalktoyou, you are still missing the fact that the Lord can mold you however he sees fit, but you still have a choice. Why? Because the Lord can replace you as easily as he prepared you. If you are determined to see Biblical evidence of this, consider the following verses.

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will eserve the LORD.

Proverbs 1
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.


These are but a few examples of the fact that people do have choices, and there choices can and do affect the rest of their life.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Would this mean that the 1.3 billion Chinese are not part of the tribes of Israel or are they part Israeli too

Good question. Can't wait to find out.

 

[AragornTK]

Well if you believe the Bible, everyone is the offspring of Adam and Eve, but not everyone is a child of Jacob, he was father to the leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel

 

[Velk]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Proverbs 1
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Although it is an entirely pointless argument, I feel obliged to point out the following quote is actually supporting the opposite of what you claim it is.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: AragornTK
Well if you believe the Bible, everyone is the offspring of Adam and Eve, but not everyone is a child of Jacob, he was father to the leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel

Here in lies the problem with anyone that takes the bible literally. It is full of parables like Adam and Eve. It appears that the majority can't see the forest for the trees and take each and every verse as if it were truly the "Word of God" as opposed to stories written by men.

If all of the Bible were truly the "Word of God", why was it edited and assembled by men? Why were books omitted?

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
hurtstotalktoyou, you are still missing the fact that the Lord can mold you however he sees fit, but you still have a choice. Why? Because the Lord can replace you as easily as he prepared you. If you are determined to see Biblical evidence of this, consider the following verses.

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will eserve the LORD.

Proverbs 1
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.


These are but a few examples of the fact that people do have choices, and there choices can and do affect the rest of their life.

Taken together with the verses detailing predestination, those passages show only that God designs man's choices. We choose, but our choices were designed by God. We are capable only of making the designed choices, and incapable of choosing anything else. Free will, then, is only a sort of illusion.

But even if you don't buy that interpretation, free will still isn't the heart of the Gospel.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Here in lies the problem with anyone that takes the bible literally. It is full of parables like Adam and Eve.

The story of Adam and Eve doesn't seem to be a parable. Genesis is a chronological narrative.

It appears that the majority can't see the forest for the trees and take each and every verse as if it were truly the "Word of God" as opposed to stories written by men.
If all of the Bible were truly the "Word of God", why was it edited and assembled by men? Why were books omitted?

The men who wrote it were said to be divinely inspired such that their words rang absolutely true. Those writings were collected, translated and published by men who did their best to maintain accuracy. Others also wrote material which others have claimed as divinely inspired. In most cases, such works are clear forgeries.

 

[bigben]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
It is obvious to me that many of you are far more knowledgeable on the New Testament then I am. Abortion is one of the hot button issues with many Christians and I want to know what biblical passages support such vehement views on the issue.

Now I don't want people coming in here with anti-Christian posts or anti-abortion posts that have no biblical support, I want to look at abortion from a purely biblical sense.

Great question, and good topic when taken seriously.

The problem with abortion, as with most of ethics among the Christian community, is that people look for easy answers by using the Bible as a rule book. Verses are not to be used in that way, though the majority of our TV preachers seem to think so.

The bible is the story of a people, Israel, chosen by God to be his. The NT is the transformation of these people by the arrival of God. This transformation changes the community from physical and ethnic to spiritual, and therefore the story becomes larger. I and anyone else who claims the lordship of God and believes in the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ are part of that story. That doesn't mean that we will all agree (look at Peter vs. Paul!) or will always know how to respond to every situation (look at the early controversy over eating animal sacrifices!). We resolve our ethics within the context of being God's people. We do what we do because of who we are, not some single verse.
(side note: verse numbers were added later, added poorly, and are somewhat arbitrary.)

So, what of abortion? The question of abortion (I get much of this from Stanely Hauerwas at Duke) is not a question of the brith of the child or when the fetus is a human. The question of abortion is, What kind of community are we? Are we a community that acts irresponsibly, participates in sex outside of the context of marriage, and forces women to choose between a life of poverty with a baby or a more comfortable life with a huge guilty complex? Or are we a community that is open, honest, encouraging, believing in the beauty of marriage and reproduction, and cares for all those who cannot afford to birth their children or who feel ashamed to admit that they have done something wrong?

The Christian response to Abortion for those outside the community (ie non-believers) should be compassion and love. We should offer to adopt the child rather than let another one die. Lord knows we have enough money. If we fail to act in love first, we have lost our moral footing and have no standing to oppose the act of abortion itself.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Taken together with the verses detailing predestination, those passages show only that God designs man's choices. We choose, but our choices were designed by God. We are capable only of making the designed choices, and incapable of choosing anything else. Free will, then, is only a sort of illusion.

But even if you don't buy that interpretation, free will still isn't the heart of the Gospel.

I must not be understanding correctly, because what you're saying seems to be "God determines what choices we have, but we determine which one we're going to choose." I'm failing to see the problem with that idea. God can provide us with two choices, a right and a wrong, and then it's up to us to make the decision of which we will do. Sounds right to me, and sounds like free agency, or free will as some call it.

Doesn't it seems just wrong to you that a God would hold you responsible for actions that he performed and not you? If you don't have not free agency and God does force us to make whatever decision he wants, how does that make you feel? You could spend your life serving him and then one day before you die, he forces you to kill someone. Everything you've done if for nothing. But then, you didn't really do it, did you? God made you do it.

I don't know man, that just doesn't sound like a kind, loving Father in Heaven who wants us to grow and return to him. Not much growth or strengthening going on if he's making all our decisions for us.