Biden's $1.9T Covid relief plan vs the Repub's $600B counter offer: Go it alone or bi-partisanship?

[fleshconsumed]

600B is what Republicans came up with last year. This is not compromise, they have not moved one inch from their original position, this is just them running PR campaign trying to fool everyone that they're willing to work with new administration and if things don't get done it's all on Democrats.

IMO if dems have votes they should just go ahead and pass it along party lines. The longer their delay the more they're risking losing seats in 2022.

 

[Commodus]

For all of you that is arguing that $15 is good and it will not lead to higher unemployment seem to forget that when business back is to the wall they star to fight back. Business will fight back by accelerating automation, exporting as many jobs to overseas as humanly possible. They will also use even less labor and those that are left will be required to do more work such as what happened after 2008 crash . McDonalds for example will find a way to make food with much less people, they already put kiosk for that reason.

In addition to the examples people have given... this is simply flawed logic.

Think about what it effectively declares: the minimum wage can never go up, ever, or companies will cut jobs and outsource work. It's holding lower-income workers hostage without the slightest concern for rising costs of living or personal growth.

Besides, those companies are already cutting jobs, automating processes and outsourcing work. Opposition to raising the minimum wage is just an attempt to keep costs down while those transitions happen.

I look at it this way: no one who works a full-time job should be struggling with basics like rent and food. And $7.25 per hour just isn't enough to make that a reality.

 

[MrSquished]

With all due respect, I never said that and you know it. I don't believe that we should be given anyone "all of the money", what i believe is everyone should have a right a decent living by taking risk. A businessman/businesswoman took a risk, opened their own business and got successful. We should not be punishing them fort that. Each state/city should be setting minimum wage base on their cost of living. Federal government should not be involved in that. $15 in LA/NY makes you poor, in Indiana $15 makes you a middle class.

You are making an absolutely terrible argument here. One should only make a decent living by taking risk? You are basically arguing for a permanent and massive underclass class of honest hardworking people to live a substandard quality of life or poverty level wages even though they are performing jobs that make day to day life enjoyable for everyone else and are part of the economy as a whole. Do you realize what a terrible person that makes you? Of course people that create successful businesses or become good doctors or lawyers or whatever should make more money, nobody is saying people should not be rewarded for such endeavours, they should make great money - nobody is arguing that a barista at a coffee shop should make the same as a lawyer. I can't believe so many people are as terrible as this. I think what maids, handymen, food service workers, menial labor jobs, custodial work, and so many more do, is honorable hard work and they deserve a decent living. I think people who think otherwise are just bad hombres.

The Federal government needs to have a base minimum wage, then states and locals can take over from there. But the Federal government has to have that.

 

[obidamnkenobi]

I have minor degree in Economics and Major in Finance/Accounting. Simply put $15 minimum is a disaster for part of US. It will not make a difference in state that already have either $15 or very close to it. However it will be devastating in any state that currently have minimum wage under $11. $15 an hour will have domino effect.

Simple way of explaining $15 issue is to take landlord that goes to the store and buys grocery. The same grocery that landlord purchase before will go up. Reason being store needs to pay more to their employees, they need to pay for the produces more being farms now need to pay more to the workers and raised their prices. Same with truckers etc. In addition now landlord will also need to pay more to maid that cleans the building, handyman that fixes building issue etc as they all will be demanding more money etc. As result rent will go up as that is the only logical progression. It's one thing to raise minimum wage state by state gradually, but not by federal government and not to $15 for everyone.

Yes? And the person who rents the apartment works and the grocery store so will have more money to pay rent. So what's the problem.
(This if of course disegarding the fact that this nonsense scare tactic is not supported by serious economic research. But you probably already knew that)

 

[fleshconsumed]

In the spirit of bipartisanship republicans announce new stimulus plan counter offer.

 

[mect]

For the most part I'm a pro the Biden bill and all for throwing the reps crap in the trash. But the checks are stupid, have been stupid the other 2 times as well. All of the check money should've been used to extend unemployment. Now that money should be used to help people payoff the massive debts they've racked up to their utilities and/or landlords. Giving people that never lost their jobs $3400 is stupid, when there are much more important things for that money to go to.

I know Biden is locked in it now since they campaigned on it in Georgia, but I still wish they hadn't.

I think there is solid reasoning for the stimulus checks for those that didn't lose work. Per my understanding, the intent wasn't to help these people directly (although this was a nice perk), but to stimulate the economy. In times of economic uncertainty, people typically respond by cutting their spending. This then decreases the circulation of money in the economy, which slows it. The benefit of the direct checks was that it increased consumer spending. There is some pretty good data out there that looks at incomes where people just saved it versus spent it, and this is where they should try to draw the line for who gets them.

 

[obidamnkenobi]

In addition to the examples people have given... this is simply flawed logic.

Think about what it effectively declares: the minimum wage can never go up, ever, or companies will cut jobs and outsource work. It's holding lower-income workers hostage without the slightest concern for rising costs of living or personal growth.

Besides, those companies are already cutting jobs, automating processes and outsourcing work. Opposition to raising the minimum wage is just an attempt to keep costs down while those transitions happen.

I look at it this way: no one who works a full-time job should be struggling with basics like rent and food. And $7.25 per hour just isn't enough to make that a reality.

no, no. The logic is flawless! If we just got rid of the minimum wage, heck let's bring back slavery. Then we would have 110% employment!

And obviously we see in Scandinavia where the minimum wage is $20 or something, there is no McDonalds there. Zero, zilc. Can't get a burger anywhere! No fast food. No grocery clerks.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes? And the person who rents the apartment works and the grocery store so will have more money to pay rent. So what's the problem.
(This if of course disegarding the fact that this nonsense scare tactic is not supported by serious economic research. But you probably already knew that)

Yeah it should be pointed out that the state of economic research is as such that it’s unclear as to if increases in the minimum wage affect job numbers at all. Some studies find a negative effect, and others find no effect.

 

[Zorba]

I think there is solid reasoning for the stimulus checks for those that didn't lose work. Per my understanding, the intent wasn't to help these people directly (although this was a nice perk), but to stimulate the economy. In times of economic uncertainty, people typically respond by cutting their spending. This then decreases the circulation of money in the economy, which slows it. The benefit of the direct checks was that it increased consumer spending. There is some pretty good data out there that looks at incomes where people just saved it versus spent it, and this is where they should try to draw the line for who gets them.

Yeah, I get the idea, and I'd be all for it as a pure stimulus, but we initially slowed down the economy to slow the spread and then we dump money on it. I think we need to keep people feed and housed until we are actually ready to restart the normal economy. Although, I concede we are much closer to that point than in April. The first checks probably mostly went to China via Walmart and Amazon, all three places that didn't need the support.

Also giving it to better off people is a waste from any point of view, just like tax cuts, it goes into savings and has no stimulus effect. I'd much rather it going to payoff people's utility debts which have gotten massive.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, I get the idea, and I'd be all for it as a pure stimulus, but we initially slowed down the economy to slow the spread and then we dump money on it. I think we need to keep people feed and housed until we are actually ready to restart the normal economy. Although, I concede we are much closer to that point than in April. The first checks probably mostly went to China via Walmart and Amazon, all three places that didn't need the support.

Also giving it to better off people is a waste from any point of view, just like tax cuts, it goes into savings and has no stimulus effect. I'd much rather it going to payoff people's utility debts which have gotten massive.

While I agree stimulus money is not very effective for higher income people from a political perspective they should just give them to everyone and call it a day. Means testing is a good idea in theory but in practice it makes programs divisive and unpopular.

 

[nakedfrog]

For the most part I'm a pro the Biden bill and all for throwing the reps crap in the trash. But the checks are stupid, have been stupid the other 2 times as well. All of the check money should've been used to extend unemployment. Now that money should be used to help people payoff the massive debts they've racked up to their utilities and/or landlords. Giving people that never lost their jobs $3400 is stupid, when there are much more important things for that money to go to.

I know Biden is locked in it now since they campaigned on it in Georgia, but I still wish they hadn't.

I dunno. I went and got food at restaurants (for example) that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten if it hadn't been for that last $600, as I'm generally frugal, but have largely been financially unaffected by the pandemic. But I felt it was useful for me to take that $600 and turn around and spend it on goods and services that I would not have otherwise. I also took care to spend it at locally-owned (by POC or LGBTQ+) businesses when it was an option. If I end up being included in this next stimulus, I'll do the same again.

 

[MrSquished]

It's crazy when people look at say an Amazon warehouse worker - they have these shifts called megacycles, from 1:20am to 11:45am. On your feet the entire time doing manual labor that you have to pay attention to because everything has to be done right so the right stuff ends up at the right customer. It's tough work. It's physically and mentally draining. The hours are also really tough on maintaining any kind of regular lifestyle. And folks think these people don't deserve a decent wage for doing all that work? To be able to afford a clean safe place to live, healthcare, decent food and the ability to have some kind of a life after all the necessities are paid for? I think they deserve more than the $15/hour Amazon is giving them. It's crazy how we undervalue people's labor and time in this country, like this wackadoo weblooker. It's shameful.

Amazon Is Forcing Its Warehouse Workers Into Brutal ‘Megacycle’ Shifts

The company has been quietly transitioning warehouse workers at Amazon warehouses nationwide to a 10-hour graveyard shift, known as the “megacycle.”

www.vice.com

 

[Zorba]

It's crazy when people look at say an Amazon warehouse worker - they have these shifts called megacycles, from 1:20am to 11:45am. On your feet the entire time doing manual labor that you have to pay attention to because everything has to be done right so the right stuff ends up at the right customer. It's tough work. It's physically and mentally draining. The hours are also really tough on maintaining any kind of regular lifestyle. And folks think these people don't deserve a decent wage for doing all that work? To be able to afford a clean safe place to live, healthcare, decent food and the ability to have some kind of a life after all the necessities are paid for? I think they deserve more than the $15/hour Amazon is giving them. It's crazy how we undervalue people's labor and time in this country, like this wackadoo weblooker. It's shameful.

Amazon Is Forcing Its Warehouse Workers Into Brutal ‘Megacycle’ Shifts

The company has been quietly transitioning warehouse workers at Amazon warehouses nationwide to a 10-hour graveyard shift, known as the “megacycle.”

www.vice.com

Meanwhile the same people want to shower wealth on a select few. It's really out of ego, "Those jobs are below me/easy than mine they don't deserve what they make. But some day I could be a CEO so the deserve what they make."

I actually saw some people taking about if you took the pay to the top 10 at Disney and spread it over all those laid off, it'd "only" be $2800/ea... For 29,000 people.

 

[weblooker2021]

Yes? And the person who rents the apartment works and the grocery store so will have more money to pay rent. So what's the problem.
(This if of course disegarding the fact that this nonsense scare tactic is not supported by serious economic research. But you probably already knew that)

You don't think landlord will raise the rent next year as result?

 

[nickqt]

It's crazy when people look at say an Amazon warehouse worker - they have these shifts called megacycles, from 1:20am to 11:45am. On your feet the entire time doing manual labor that you have to pay attention to because everything has to be done right so the right stuff ends up at the right customer. It's tough work. It's physically and mentally draining. The hours are also really tough on maintaining any kind of regular lifestyle. And folks think these people don't deserve a decent wage for doing all that work? To be able to afford a clean safe place to live, healthcare, decent food and the ability to have some kind of a life after all the necessities are paid for? I think they deserve more than the $15/hour Amazon is giving them. It's crazy how we undervalue people's labor and time in this country, like this wackadoo weblooker. It's shameful.

Amazon Is Forcing Its Warehouse Workers Into Brutal ‘Megacycle’ Shifts

The company has been quietly transitioning warehouse workers at Amazon warehouses nationwide to a 10-hour graveyard shift, known as the “megacycle.”

www.vice.com

The people with all of the money want their workers to be just smart enough to push the right buttons in the correct order. Other than that, their goal is that their workers are as poor as possible without it affecting their ability to push the right buttons in the correct order. That is the heart of capitalism, along with extracting resources for as cheap as possible, usually by pointing a gun/dangling a carrot, or controlling a government that is pointing a gun or dangling a carrot, towards some poor people, foreign or domestic, to extract resources for pennies on the thousands of dollars.

The people with all the money don't want a race to the top, because they're already there and they don't want more company. They're in a race to the bottom - for everyone else.

So, of course they're going to use the cheapest labor available for as much of the work as possible. Hence, China. Or Vietnam. Or wherever there are lots of poor people. And if something just has to be assembled here for convenience or tax purposes, they continue paying the least possible amount for the work done, while charging as much as they can.

Death Cult Capitalists can try to couch the reality of how it works however they want, but it doesn't change how it works, how it destroys societies, all so they can "make" more money to run up the score.

 

[obidamnkenobi]

You don't think landlord will raise the rent next year as result?

Rent is already being raised every year.. And that's what I said: wages go up, and rent goes up. That's fine. Unlike the current situation where it's only the rent going up!

 

[fskimospy]

You don't think landlord will raise the rent next year as result?

The rent on the apartment is based on the rental market that everyone competes in. Minimum wage increases affect only a small fraction of the overall market and so they will gain disproportionately.

 

[NWRMidnight]

It's crazy when people look at say an Amazon warehouse worker - they have these shifts called megacycles, from 1:20am to 11:45am. On your feet the entire time doing manual labor that you have to pay attention to because everything has to be done right so the right stuff ends up at the right customer. It's tough work. It's physically and mentally draining. The hours are also really tough on maintaining any kind of regular lifestyle. And folks think these people don't deserve a decent wage for doing all that work? To be able to afford a clean safe place to live, healthcare, decent food and the ability to have some kind of a life after all the necessities are paid for? I think they deserve more than the $15/hour Amazon is giving them. It's crazy how we undervalue people's labor and time in this country, like this wackadoo weblooker. It's shameful.

Amazon Is Forcing Its Warehouse Workers Into Brutal ‘Megacycle’ Shifts

The company has been quietly transitioning warehouse workers at Amazon warehouses nationwide to a 10-hour graveyard shift, known as the “megacycle.”

www.vice.com

Our society has evolved to believing high wages are tied to education, not hard work. They believe that everything revolves around "skill" and not hard work, some physically, some menially, some both. They have the attitude that jobs that appear to take no skill, little or no "education" to do, regardless of the hard work involved, or how much attention to detail it requires, deserves nothing more than low pay. Wages for the most part should be based off an honest days work for an honest days pay. But that is not the case. Many American's who are in the bottom half of the income brackets, who hold these "skill-less" jobs work 10 times harder than those in the top half of the income brackets. We have developed into a nation where "titles" is the largest determination in what a job pays. Not the actual work done.

 

[weblooker2021]

Our society has evolved to believing high wages are tied to education, not hard work. They believe that everything revolves around "skill" and not hard work, some physically, some menially, some both. They have the attitude that jobs that appear to take no skill, little or no "education" to do, regardless of the hard work involved, or how much attention to detail it requires, deserves nothing more than low pay. Wages for the most part should be based off an honest days work for an honest days pay. But that is not the case. Many American's who are in the bottom half of the income brackets, who hold these "skill-less" jobs work 10 times harder than those in the top half of the income brackets. We have developed into a nation where "titles" is the largest determination in what a job pays. Not the actual work done.

It's more of a how many people can replace you and how easy it's to hire them when you need to be replaced. Working McDonalds and taking order is pretty easy skill to learn. same as working as a janitor etc. It take much more skills and time to become say CPA, Doctor etc. Harder it's to find a replacement for you, more someone is willing to pay for your skills.

Btw i read there is high chances that $15 will not be part of the bill as it will be ruled out of order in Senate.

 

[NWRMidnight]

It's more of a how many people can replace you and how easy it's to hire them when you need to be replaced. Working McDonalds and taking order is pretty easy skill to learn. same as working as a janitor etc. It take much more skills and time to become say CPA, Doctor etc. Harder it's to find a replacement for you, more someone is willing to pay for your skills.

Btw i read there is high chances that $15 will not be part of the bill as it will be ruled out of order in Senate.

So someone who can be replaced easily shouldn't benefit from hard work, be it physical or mental exhausting? You just confirmed my point in your response about McDonald's. You are looking at the skill part, and ignoring everything else that goes with that "low skill" job. All you see that their job is, is taking orders, when that is only a fraction of the job. Dealing with the public continuously is mentally exhausting, and that is before you factor on the difficult customers, and all the other aspects of that job. But, because they don't have to go to school, don't have to put in that extra time and work to get that job, they shouldn't get honest wage for their work?

Giving McDonald's an honest livable wage for an honest days work, doesn't take away from CPA's, doctors, etc. from earning a higher wage.

Right now, the "low skill", anyone can do it argument, is just an excuse for a different form of slavery in this country.


Also, what basis will it be considered out of order in the Senate? Many of our laws and changes have always been part of bills that have nothing to do with the actual bill. That and the democrats control the Senate, so how is it going to be ruled out of order?

 

[MrSquished]

It's more of a how many people can replace you and how easy it's to hire them when you need to be replaced. Working McDonalds and taking order is pretty easy skill to learn. same as working as a janitor etc. It take much more skills and time to become say CPA, Doctor etc. Harder it's to find a replacement for you, more someone is willing to pay for your skills.

Btw i read there is high chances that $15 will not be part of the bill as it will be ruled out of order in Senate.

You are still ignoring that jobs can be menial and easily replaceable but also hard honest and sometimes grueling work. And you think they should have substandard living. It's terrible.

And of course Doctor's and CPA's should make more than a warehouse worker. Doctor's and CPA's don't have to get paid little so warehouse workers don't get fucked over.

 

[K1052]

Senate passed the Dem budget resolution this morning.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1357640561407234048

 

[ewdotson]

So, about the Manchin-Collins amendment to ensure the checks are targeted at lower and middle-class earners and which passed 99-1. Here's the text of the amendment:

https://www.manchin.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Manchin-Collins Targeted EIP.pdf?cb

You may note a distinct lack of the "phase things out at $50k" thing being codified into the amendment. In fact, it leaves things to the discretion of the chair of the Senate Budget Committee. Which is to say - Bernie Sanders.

I think I see why there was very little pushback on this.

 

[K1052]

Who the fuck called on Larry Summers to opine on this when he admitted to crippling the Obama stimulus because he misjudged the political climate? The argument that passing a partisan bill will sacrifice other progressive goals seems naive at best since the Rs would not magically be in favor of those goals if reconciliation is not used. There is very likely not enough clout or interest in moderate R circles to close the 10 vote gap on anything and pretending there is for very long is a waste of time.

 

[woolfe9998]

My only concern about the minimum wage increase was doing it during this pandemic recession, with so many small retail businesses failing all over the country. There are states where they're going to have to more than double what they pay their workers. Well, turns out that what's in the bill will increase it to $15/hr incrementally over 5 years. I'm back to supporting it.

Congress passes key step to allow Democrats to pass Covid-19 relief without threat of GOP filibuster

Both chambers of Congress have now passed a budget resolution, a key procedural step that sets up the ability for Democrats to pass President Joe Biden's sweeping $1.9 trillion Covid-19 relief package without the threat of a filibuster from Republicans who oppose it.

www.cnn.com