Big Expensive Diesels...thumbsdown!

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
With the quality of the BMW inline 6 diesel in the 3 series and X5 along with the diesels in the Mercedes ML and the Q7...things were looking up for diesels in my mind...then I saw this...

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/ca...-bit-adblue-over-spending-a-lot-of-green.html

I'm sure you can order that stuff yourself and get it at a discount...but holy crap.

I know that the cheaper TDI motors in the Jetta/Golf/A3 do not use the Adblue to achieve there low polutant figures... so I'd be interested as to why the same tech in the TDI in the A3 doesn't scale up to the bigger engines the the X5, ML, and Q7 (I assume...but maybe the Q7 doesn't require the additive).

Anyone else shocked on cost? Any ideas why the tech doesn't scale to the larger engines?
 

Yowen

Member
Nov 22, 2004
116
0
0
would this be similar to the piss GM and Ford make you put in your truck? The proper term for it is "urea"... Whoda thunk piss/urea-spray would lower diesel emissions.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
would this be similar to the piss GM and Ford make you put in your truck? The proper term for it is "urea"... Whoda thunk piss/urea-spray would lower diesel emissions.

Is Ford/GM making you do that these days?

I read a bit more and it looks like both the Q7 and Touareg also require the Adblue stuff...but VW sells it for $30 for a 2.5 gallon jug...so not nearly as expensive as MB...not that it is surprising.

I also saw that BMW sells 0.5 gallons for $39.99.
 

Yowen

Member
Nov 22, 2004
116
0
0
yeah, just read up on that adblue, its pee as well... Pitty just peeing in the tank will throw the sensor off and put the truck in limp mode, lol. But yeah on ford/gm's new diesel truck models the do it to meet gov't regulations. Cummins/Dodge doesn't do it because they dont need it to meet regulations.
 

Stefan Payne

Senior member
Dec 24, 2009
253
0
0
I don't like diesels...
They are not soo clean everyone says.

And in terms of reliability, they are crap...
You'll have more problems with a diesel than with a normal gasoline engine, due to the components, like fuel injectors or the exhaust system, especially the soot particle filter wich needs a special driver profile to 'regenerate', if you drive just short ways and city, it doesn't regenerate, so the engine check lights, and you'll need to go to a service station who regenerate that for you...
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
With the quality of the BMW inline 6 diesel in the 3 series and X5 along with the diesels in the Mercedes ML and the Q7...things were looking up for diesels in my mind...then I saw this...

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/ca...-bit-adblue-over-spending-a-lot-of-green.html

I'm sure you can order that stuff yourself and get it at a discount...but holy crap.

I know that the cheaper TDI motors in the Jetta/Golf/A3 do not use the Adblue to achieve there low polutant figures... so I'd be interested as to why the same tech in the TDI in the A3 doesn't scale up to the bigger engines the the X5, ML, and Q7 (I assume...but maybe the Q7 doesn't require the additive).

Anyone else shocked on cost? Any ideas why the tech doesn't scale to the larger engines?

Why would you be shocked at the cost? You're buying a $67k Mercedes. Everything for that car is going to be expensive even if it's the same tech that's used in cheaper vehicles.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I don't like diesels...
They are not soo clean everyone says.

And in terms of reliability, they are crap...
You'll have more problems with a diesel than with a normal gasoline engine, due to the components, like fuel injectors or the exhaust system, especially the soot particle filter wich needs a special driver profile to 'regenerate', if you drive just short ways and city, it doesn't regenerate, so the engine check lights, and you'll need to go to a service station who regenerate that for you...
Most people hold that diesels are more reliable than gasoline.

This adblue thing sounds silly. I guess I'd just never heard of it. $1450 over 100k miles on a 67k suv, though, is not terribly expensive.

I think you can buy it much cheaper, as the crazy price differences above indicate. I wonder if BMW would make you spend their huge cost or you could use something that goes into busses (I Just wikied adblue).

Sounds like soylent green, the name does.
 

Yowen

Member
Nov 22, 2004
116
0
0
adblue sounds a lot better than UREA...

Diesels were reliable, till all the emissions crap. This is another thing in cold climates that can freeze.
 

Stefan Payne

Senior member
Dec 24, 2009
253
0
0
Most people hold that diesels are more reliable than gasoline.
That was the case with the old Things, for example an old Mercedes 250D had 75Horses and 2.5 litres displacement...

But with the high tech diesels, that's not the case anymore...
The main problems are fuel injectors, turbo charger and especally the the 'DFP'...
 

Yowen

Member
Nov 22, 2004
116
0
0
DPF is the proper term... I can't wait to see the problems this Urea nonsense will have.
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,365
475
126
This is just for emissions - no effect on mileage/power? What's to stop people from just not using the additive?
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
Why would you be shocked at the cost? You're buying a $67k Mercedes. Everything for that car is going to be expensive even if it's the same tech that's used in cheaper vehicles.

Understood it is an expensive Mercedes...but I was translating these costs to "cheaper" Touareg models and other cars sporting new clean diesels. My follow up post was on how it was cheaper for this fluid from VW...so it makes more sense now...but i still was not expecting that much cost on something every 20K or less miles... especially for a tech that most people are touting for reducing ownership costs (by getting better gas mileage).
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
This is just for emissions - no effect on mileage/power? What's to stop people from just not using the additive?

In the case of the BMW it will only let you start the car a limited number of times after the tank runs dry...at least that is what I have read. A friend recently picked up a X5 diesel...so I'll ask him the next chance I get what his owner's manual says.
 

JDub02

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2002
6,210
1
0
In the case of the BMW it will only let you start the car a limited number of times after the tank runs dry...at least that is what I have read. A friend recently picked up a X5 diesel...so I'll ask him the next chance I get what his owner's manual says.

It'll only be a matter of time before there's a "performance" chip that fools the ECU into thinking the urea tank is full.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,220
5,079
146
That sucks. I think of heavy equipment and 500,000 mile trucks and durability, not some funky special tank that costs an arm and a leg when I think of diesel.
 

JoeBleed

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2000
1,408
30
91
That was the case with the old Things, for example an old Mercedes 250D had 75Horses and 2.5 litres displacement...

But with the high tech diesels, that's not the case anymore...
The main problems are fuel injectors, turbo charger and especally the the 'DFP'...

I can't speak for the DPF but my TDI has been problem free. No injector or Turbo problems. Though it only has 97k Miles on it right now, it isn't giving me any signs of any pending problems. Though keep in mind i do my own maintenance which includes running some fuel system cleaner through the tank every 30k or so miles so far. As with all car models, designs, and engines, there will always be manufacturing defects that cause a negative reflection in the publics eyes. The bad us usually publicized much more than any good.

As for turbo problems, with the VW TDis, most of them are related to people driving the car like it was a fragile piece of peanut brittle or something. I beat the hell out of mine. Newer VNT typer turbos require rpm and load to generate a good amount of boost now and then to keep the actuating vanes moving full sweep and freely. This problem might lessen if our diesel quality here in the US was a bit better.

Something else to keep in mind related to our diesel fuel here and from what i have read about other diesel motors from non US manufactures, is that they were designed with a c-tane rating higher than what is typically found here. Usually if you can find "Premium Diesel" you will get what it was designed for or at least much closer. If you think you shouldn't have to worry about such stuff, i would agree, but don't forget how many times gasoline has been changed and is still changing to meet emissions needs. Diesel here has been mostly for freight use here for the longest time. the new ULSD is a start to more environmentally friendly diesel fuel formulation.

For the additive for these DPFs, as noted, it can already be had cheaper from other sources, as it becomes more popular, it will likely be available from more sources and the price will probably be more competitive. Besides, that article seemed like it was pricing the stuff being bought straight from the local dealer. From a VW standpoint, and probably for all dealers, that kind of thing will differ from dealer to dealer. I know some VW dealers were killing people on the price of oil needed for the PD injectors/cam while my local dealer was competitive with on-line places. As for the charge of adding it, it should be as easy as adding washer fluid from what i have read. I have not seen one up close.

And for further reliability of modern, small diesels. there are many around with over 200k miles and many over 300k that i know about. But this doesn't included post 07 models that are required to meet the new emissions standards. Time will tell.

And a speculation about why the smaller TDIs don't need these DPFs with additive, is just that, their smaller displacement. As i followed what information was available about VW diesels for post 07 import, it was speculated that the additive would also be needed. Given some more time and research, the need for the additive may be eliminated. One can only hope.

Edit: Oh as for the DPF not doing its burn off due to short drives, i've read that before a couple years ago from a Euro VW forum. But also, short drives aren't good for any motor, especial diesel of any kind. As i've told people beforee, sometimes a gasser is best for your needs.

I've read that is one reason you don't see diesel-hybrids. Don't know how true that is; probably just more speculation.
 
Last edited:

Stefan Payne

Senior member
Dec 24, 2009
253
0
0
@JoeBleed
Well the 2.0 TDI DPF has other problems...

Here in Germany the fuel consumtion is really bad, about 8-10l/100km Diesel (well that's more a 1.4 TSI would need), don't know if it's fixed though.

And there are problems with the material of the cylinder head (BHG are also common) on the 2.0 TDI with 170HP...

Haven't driven a 2.0 TDI yet but the drivability of the 1.9l TDis is quite poor due to the small rev band where you've got power...

PS: diesels are here in Germany quite common, sadly...
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
@JoeBleed
Well the 2.0 TDI DPF has other problems...

Here in Germany the fuel consumtion is really bad, about 8-10l/100km Diesel (well that's more a 1.4 TSI would need), don't know if it's fixed though.

And there are problems with the material of the cylinder head (BHG are also common) on the 2.0 TDI with 170HP...

Haven't driven a 2.0 TDI yet but the drivability of the 1.9l TDis is quite poor due to the small rev band where you've got power...

PS: diesels are here in Germany quite common, sadly...

Almost all of my colleagues are German (I work for a German company) and all of them are constantly trying to convince me that diesel is the ONLY way to drive...well unless you have a Porsche. I argue (for fun) all the time about this with them.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
I don't know what Stefan's issue is with Diesel, but most of it appears to be FUD.

And on the subject of diesel Hybrids, our 120d is a 'Mild Hybrid', i.e., it doesn't have an extra electric motor, but does stop/start (and it has a FAP filter, so that's another of Stefan's myths debunked), has regenerative braking, etc.

Reliability of diesels usually outstrips gas by a long shot. I've also driven the VW 1.9TDI a lot and it has plenty of power. The rev band is ALWAYS smaller on a diesel, so I'm not really sure what he's on about. Our 120d revs to 5K max, but full torque comes in at 1.5kRPM (260ft/lb!!) and stays there till the red line.

Back on topic, I have read that the Urea concentrate, whatever the manufacturer may call it, lasts around 20K miles per fill. And as some have mentioned, if the US standardised on ULSD, as it has been is Europe for a very long time, rather than the agricultural crap you get today then emissions would be lower simply by the virtue of the fuel being better.

Diesel is great, FEEL THE TORQUE!
 

Yowen

Member
Nov 22, 2004
116
0
0
It'll only be a matter of time before there's a "performance" chip that fools the ECU into thinking the urea tank is full.

Thats what I'm counting on, as long as you can pass inspections in the states that have them. By temporarily reactivating it. I know current diesel owners are into removing emissions crap to get more performance, I dont see this being any different.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,220
5,079
146
I don't know what Stefan's issue is with Diesel, but most of it appears to be FUD.

And on the subject of diesel Hybrids, our 120d is a 'Mild Hybrid', i.e., it doesn't have an extra electric motor, but does stop/start (and it has a FAP filter, so that's another of Stefan's myths debunked), has regenerative braking, etc.

Reliability of diesels usually outstrips gas by a long shot. I've also driven the VW 1.9TDI a lot and it has plenty of power. The rev band is ALWAYS smaller on a diesel, so I'm not really sure what he's on about. Our 120d revs to 5K max, but full torque comes in at 1.5kRPM (260ft/lb!!) and stays there till the red line.

Back on topic, I have read that the Urea concentrate, whatever the manufacturer may call it, lasts around 20K miles per fill. And as some have mentioned, if the US standardised on ULSD, as it has been is Europe for a very long time, rather than the agricultural crap you get today then emissions would be lower simply by the virtue of the fuel being better.

Diesel is great, FEEL THE TORQUE!

We rented a Ford Mondeo this fall in the UK, and I was quite impressed.
It had plenty of power to piss my wife off in the twisty roads
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
We rented a Ford Mondeo this fall in the UK, and I was quite impressed.
It had plenty of power to piss my wife off in the twisty roads

Yeah, the Mondeo has a 140HP diesel lump in it and again has a great dollop or torque to go with it. Our 120d has 177Hp and almost as much torque as my M3. :awe:
 
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