Bigots United . . .

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
OK Speedy - fixed the 'Spelling Nazi' thing for you -

Now on to more refined Nazis.


The retrevial now, as the origin way back a month ago - is and was to point out that hate groups and paranoids
are using this as a ralling point to expand their narrowminded and BIGOTED agenda.

Do you think that just last Tuesday some 11 million (or as Pat Buchanan says 30 Million) mexicans swam the Rio Grande ?

The Clinton Administration prosecuted 1900 businesses for hiring non-legal imigrants in 2000, while the
Bush Administration only went after 3 businesses last year for their hiring practices.

The 'Problem' isn't with the 'Mexicans' - the problem is with Corporate Americas exploitation of the system to get cheap labor.

Not jobs to cross for - no crossings gonna happen.

Hey, just like Nazi Germany - you have to rally your bigots to hate a common enemy so you can control them - read your history.

Not a big deal about the spelling, but it was getting annoying.

I agree, this administration hasn't done a dam thing to prosecute businesses, but that is only one piece of the puzzle. One of the other parts is stemming the flow of illegals who are the root of the cause in the first place. Just think, if the rate of illegals in here was only 300K a year and not 1 million, would this even under the microscope? You have to look at all the roots of the problem:
1) our border security,
2) a corrupt Mexican government that makes stupid policies, and
3) the government not prosecuting businesses who hire them.

A wall most certainly helps with #1.

The bigot issue is moot, there will always be hate groups, and of course their numbers will inflate slightly as illegals flood our borders in record numbers.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
OK Speedy - fixed the 'Spelling Nazi' thing for you -

Now on to more refined Nazis.


The retrevial now, as the origin way back a month ago - is and was to point out that hate groups and paranoids
are using this as a ralling point to expand their narrowminded and BIGOTED agenda.

Do you think that just last Tuesday some 11 million (or as Pat Buchanan says 30 Million) mexicans swam the Rio Grande ?

The Clinton Administration prosecuted 1900 businesses for hiring non-legal imigrants in 2000, while the
Bush Administration only went after 3 businesses last year for their hiring practices.

The 'Problem' isn't with the 'Mexicans' - the problem is with Corporate Americas exploitation of the system to get cheap labor.

Not jobs to cross for - no crossings gonna happen.

Hey, just like Nazi Germany - you have to rally your bigots to hate a common enemy so you can control them - read your history.

Not a big deal about the spelling, but it was getting annoying.

I agree, this administration hasn't done a dam thing to prosecute businesses, but that is only one piece of the puzzle. One of the other parts is stemming the flow of illegals who are the root of the cause in the first place. Just think, if the rate of illegals in here was only 300K a year and not 1 million, would this even under the microscope? You have to look at all the roots of the problem:
1) our border security,
2) a corrupt Mexican government that makes stupid policies, and
3) the government not prosecuting businesses who hire them.

A wall most certainly helps with #1.

The bigot issue is moot, there will always be hate groups, and of course their numbers will inflate slightly as illegals flood our borders in record numbers.

When a polititian tries to stand on two side of the same issue they end up doing the splits and tering themselves in half up the middle.
That's what Bush effectively did the other night, as seen on TV.

Again - we don't need MORE NEW LAWS- we need to enforce those we have, the would work if enforced where the problem is.
The problem is with the American based business that chooses to hire cheap illegal workers because it keeps the costs
(and the responsibility of paying a LEGAL US WORKER fair wages) down to maximize their profits.

Is the Mexican the problem illegal worker in New Orleans?
No, the problem is American Contractors who hire subcontractors to bring in illegal Brazilians to be the New Orleans workforce.

Again - force the Government to do thier own work with what is on the books, don't re-assign the blame to a victim
to cover their sorry ass attempt to appease some reactionary group of bigots. (spelled right)

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: RichardE
Nothing wrong with protecting your interests against criminals...


Illegals "Are" criminals.

Go fsck off. That what ignorant comments like yours make me want to say.

CaptnKirk is right. The illegal immigration issue if chock full of racism.

but they are, being illegaly in the country is what defines them as a group

I would say the "illegality" of what defines "Them" is only valid from an ignorant perspective. These are people -- they are not defined by laws. Laws are irrelevant in the definition of who they are.

Take that bullcrap and stick it back up where you pulled it from

 

[AmerDoux]

I found this to be a well rounded read on the illegal immigration situation. References for the report appear solid. Currently there is a lot of finger pointing at the Mexican border and this seems to be the only focus of attention to the illegal immigration discussion, both in the media and right here on these forums. Statistics, while varied, show that roughly just a smidge over ½ of the illegal immigrants are Mexican. While this is a large percentage, what about the other ½? Why is there is no Minuteman presence at the harbors? Why is there no presence at the Canadian border? Why do you only hear complaints of speaking Spanish and absolutely no mention of Vietnamese, Chinese, Hindu, Russian, etc.? IMHO the total focus on the one coupled with a complete absence of addressing the other smacks of racism. The issue is much larger and more complex than patrolling the Mexican border. Our country is in crisis and the illegal immigration problem is real and does need to be resolved. However, the proposal from our current President (and those of former Presidents) is just lip service. Many studies have been conducted and the broader issues have been thoroughly outlined. If there was an honest desire to correct this problem, they would address it at all levels, including various departmental policies that have kept us in this situation. Below is a link to the entire report. It is a long read but well worth it. I included snippets below that substantiate this problem is not primarily a Mexican border issue.

The Illegal Alien Problem: Enforcing the Immigration Laws

By George Weissinger, Ph. D.
New York Institute of Technology
Department of Behavioral Science-Criminal Justice Program
CIBC 66-327, PO Box 9029, Central Islip, New York 11722-9029
Telephone (631) 348-3062 - gweissin@nyit.edu
Published on November 7, 2003.

[snippet] The INS estimated that there were 7 million illegal aliens residing in the United States in January 2000. According to INS, 69% of this unauthorized immigrant population was from Mexico. (USINS, 2003) However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol. These statistics further indicate that the illegal alien problem is both a border and an interior enforcement problem. More importantly, the interior problem seems to be far greater than the border problem. However, the INS never placed much emphasis on interior enforcement. As a matter of fact, there is very little interior enforcement of the immigration laws going on. Interior enforcement lags behind all other functions of the agency and the INS clearly prioritized the Border Patrol function. [end snippet]

[snippet] There, most of the apprehensions are of Mexican nationals and involve attempted entry without inspection. When we shift to the interior of the United States, the demographics change. The available official statistics on interior apprehensions are hidden inside the INS' annual reports. Most of the illegal aliens apprehended inside the United States entered through ports of entry, not without inspection, and simply overstay the time authorized by the INS. It is suggested that most of these illegal aliens, who entered as documented aliens (not undocumented as they are routinely labeled) make up a significant portion of the illegal population inside the United States. Labeling theory offers insights into otherwise hidden populations and those who elude detection. These groups include the numerous individuals who violate their immigration status by accepting unauthorized employment (such as foreign visitors who decide to work in the United States, especially students), and those who enter into fraudulent document schemes in an effort to stay in the United States. For example, a comparison between the official statistics offered by the INS and the NYDO sample shows a striking difference. I used the NYDO sample because it is a useful example of otherwise scant information on apprehended alien activity. Although dated, the data is useful in comparing official statistics that define the illegal alien problem as a Mexico-United States problem to interior apprehended alien activity; at least at the time the data was collected. The North and Houstoun study (1976), conducted just before the NYDO sample data, suggested, ?A probability sample of apprehended illegals could in principle be designed, but it would be of limited interest.? (Ibid. p. 34) According to North and Houstoun, it would be inappropriate to make inferences about other illegal alien populations, especially those that eluded detection and established residency. In the absence of any other credible database that describes illegal aliens inside the United States, the NYDO sample can be useful in making inferences at least about apprehended aliens in the New York area. Beyond that, inferences might be made to populations in large urban areas in general. Hopefully, a similar national database of interior enforcement activity could be useful in describing current interior demographics of the illegal alien population. The comparison also shows the priority INS places on the Border Patrol and illegal immigration from Mexico. There are some remarkable similarities, but clearly more striking differences in the data on Mexico. Obviously, much more research is needed to determine the demographics of the illegal alien inside the United States. It is remarkable that official statistics from INS about interior enforcement operations is available but not usually published, or readily accessible. [end snippet]

[snippet] Focusing on the apprehension of low-level visa abusers primarily from Mexico most assuredly contributed to the failure of the INS to monitor more serious law violators (such as terrorists and other criminals). Perhaps a more progressive interior enforcement strategy that included an emphasis on criminal aliens and a shift away from the Border Patrol mentality of enforcement could provide the answer. Although increasing manpower in BICE does not guarantee that the illegal alien problem will be solved, the lack of resources allocated to interior enforcement requires immediate attention. If there were as many INS special agents as there were Border Patrol agents it may not have been necessary to split the agency in the first place. More importantly, if the legacy INS policy makers had taken their interior enforcement obligations seriously perhaps the tragedy of 9/11/2001 could have been prevented. [end snippet]

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: RichardE
Nothing wrong with protecting your interests against criminals...


Illegals "Are" criminals.

Go fsck off. That what ignorant comments like yours make me want to say.

CaptnKirk is right. The illegal immigration issue if chock full of racism.

but they are, being illegaly in the country is what defines them as a group

I would say the "illegality" of what defines "Them" is only valid from an ignorant perspective. These are people -- they are not defined by laws. Laws are irrelevant in the definition of who they are.

Take that bullcrap and stick it back up where you pulled it from

On this we can agree

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
OK Speedy - fixed the 'Spelling Nazi' thing for you -

Now on to more refined Nazis.


The retrevial now, as the origin way back a month ago - is and was to point out that hate groups and paranoids
are using this as a ralling point to expand their narrowminded and BIGOTED agenda.

Do you think that just last Tuesday some 11 million (or as Pat Buchanan says 30 Million) mexicans swam the Rio Grande ?

The Clinton Administration prosecuted 1900 businesses for hiring non-legal imigrants in 2000, while the
Bush Administration only went after 3 businesses last year for their hiring practices.

The 'Problem' isn't with the 'Mexicans' - the problem is with Corporate Americas exploitation of the system to get cheap labor.

Not jobs to cross for - no crossings gonna happen.

Hey, just like Nazi Germany - you have to rally your bigots to hate a common enemy so you can control them - read your history.

Not a big deal about the spelling, but it was getting annoying.

I agree, this administration hasn't done a dam thing to prosecute businesses, but that is only one piece of the puzzle. One of the other parts is stemming the flow of illegals who are the root of the cause in the first place. Just think, if the rate of illegals in here was only 300K a year and not 1 million, would this even under the microscope? You have to look at all the roots of the problem:
1) our border security,
2) a corrupt Mexican government that makes stupid policies, and
3) the government not prosecuting businesses who hire them.

A wall most certainly helps with #1.

The bigot issue is moot, there will always be hate groups, and of course their numbers will inflate slightly as illegals flood our borders in record numbers.

When a polititian tries to stand on two side of the same issue they end up doing the splits and tering themselves in half up the middle.
That's what Bush effectively did the other night, as seen on TV.

Again - we don't need MORE NEW LAWS- we need to enforce those we have, the would work if enforced where the problem is.
The problem is with the American based business that chooses to hire cheap illegal workers because it keeps the costs
(and the responsibility of paying a LEGAL US WORKER fair wages) down to maximize their profits.

Is the Mexican the problem illegal worker in New Orleans?
No, the problem is American Contractors who hire subcontractors to bring in illegal Brazilians to be the New Orleans workforce.

Again - force the Government to do thier own work with what is on the books, don't re-assign the blame to a victim
to cover their sorry ass attempt to appease some reactionary group of bigots. (spelled right)

I still think you're missing the point. You quoted a year from the Clinton era that prosecuted a good number of businesses for hiring illegals (1900 in 2000). Yet, in the year 2000, 1.5 million illegals crossed over, the peak number in the past 10 years. And this year, an estimated 1.2 million are coming over. This means that something needs to change legislatively, the current system IS in fact broken.

You pin all the blame on our government for not penalizing businesses, yet even when businesses were penalized (softly I might add), it did nothing to stem the flow of illegals. You cannot ignore the fact that our border has more holes than a Jenna Jameson flick, and that Mexican policy needs to change as well so Mexicans can at least earn a respectable living in their own country.

1) our border security,
2) a corrupt Mexican government that makes stupid policies and cannot create jobs for normal people, and
3) our government not prosecuting businesses who hire illegals.

You still didn't address #2 and #1, the problem can't be 100% #3. In fact, I would attribute #3 around 25% of the problem, #2@45%, and #1@30%.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: AmerDoux
I found this to be a well rounded read on the illegal immigration situation. References for the report appear solid. Currently there is a lot of finger pointing at the Mexican border and this seems to be the only focus of attention to the illegal immigration discussion, both in the media and right here on these forums. Statistics, while varied, show that roughly just a smidge over ½ of the illegal immigrants are Mexican. While this is a large percentage, what about the other ½? Why is there is no Minuteman presence at the harbors? Why is there no presence at the Canadian border? Why do you only hear complaints of speaking Spanish and absolutely no mention of Vietnamese, Chinese, Hindu, Russian, etc.? IMHO the total focus on the one coupled with a complete absence of addressing the other smacks of racism. The issue is much larger and more complex than patrolling the Mexican border. Our country is in crisis and the illegal immigration problem is real and does need to be resolved. However, the proposal from our current President (and those of former Presidents) is just lip service. Many studies have been conducted and the broader issues have been thoroughly outlined. If there was an honest desire to correct this problem, they would address it at all levels, including various departmental policies that have kept us in this situation. Below is a link to the entire report. It is a long read but well worth it. I included snippets below that substantiate this problem is not primarily a Mexican border issue.

The Illegal Alien Problem: Enforcing the Immigration Laws

By George Weissinger, Ph. D.
New York Institute of Technology
Department of Behavioral Science-Criminal Justice Program
CIBC 66-327, PO Box 9029, Central Islip, New York 11722-9029
Telephone (631) 348-3062 - gweissin@nyit.edu
Published on November 7, 2003.

[snippet] The INS estimated that there were 7 million illegal aliens residing in the United States in January 2000. According to INS, 69% of this unauthorized immigrant population was from Mexico. (USINS, 2003) However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol. These statistics further indicate that the illegal alien problem is both a border and an interior enforcement problem. More importantly, the interior problem seems to be far greater than the border problem. However, the INS never placed much emphasis on interior enforcement. As a matter of fact, there is very little interior enforcement of the immigration laws going on. Interior enforcement lags behind all other functions of the agency and the INS clearly prioritized the Border Patrol function. [end snippet]

[snippet] There, most of the apprehensions are of Mexican nationals and involve attempted entry without inspection. When we shift to the interior of the United States, the demographics change. The available official statistics on interior apprehensions are hidden inside the INS' annual reports. Most of the illegal aliens apprehended inside the United States entered through ports of entry, not without inspection, and simply overstay the time authorized by the INS. It is suggested that most of these illegal aliens, who entered as documented aliens (not undocumented as they are routinely labeled) make up a significant portion of the illegal population inside the United States. Labeling theory offers insights into otherwise hidden populations and those who elude detection. These groups include the numerous individuals who violate their immigration status by accepting unauthorized employment (such as foreign visitors who decide to work in the United States, especially students), and those who enter into fraudulent document schemes in an effort to stay in the United States. For example, a comparison between the official statistics offered by the INS and the NYDO sample shows a striking difference. I used the NYDO sample because it is a useful example of otherwise scant information on apprehended alien activity. Although dated, the data is useful in comparing official statistics that define the illegal alien problem as a Mexico-United States problem to interior apprehended alien activity; at least at the time the data was collected. The North and Houstoun study (1976), conducted just before the NYDO sample data, suggested, ?A probability sample of apprehended illegals could in principle be designed, but it would be of limited interest.? (Ibid. p. 34) According to North and Houstoun, it would be inappropriate to make inferences about other illegal alien populations, especially those that eluded detection and established residency. In the absence of any other credible database that describes illegal aliens inside the United States, the NYDO sample can be useful in making inferences at least about apprehended aliens in the New York area. Beyond that, inferences might be made to populations in large urban areas in general. Hopefully, a similar national database of interior enforcement activity could be useful in describing current interior demographics of the illegal alien population. The comparison also shows the priority INS places on the Border Patrol and illegal immigration from Mexico. There are some remarkable similarities, but clearly more striking differences in the data on Mexico. Obviously, much more research is needed to determine the demographics of the illegal alien inside the United States. It is remarkable that official statistics from INS about interior enforcement operations is available but not usually published, or readily accessible. [end snippet]

[snippet] Focusing on the apprehension of low-level visa abusers primarily from Mexico most assuredly contributed to the failure of the INS to monitor more serious law violators (such as terrorists and other criminals). Perhaps a more progressive interior enforcement strategy that included an emphasis on criminal aliens and a shift away from the Border Patrol mentality of enforcement could provide the answer. Although increasing manpower in BICE does not guarantee that the illegal alien problem will be solved, the lack of resources allocated to interior enforcement requires immediate attention. If there were as many INS special agents as there were Border Patrol agents it may not have been necessary to split the agency in the first place. More importantly, if the legacy INS policy makers had taken their interior enforcement obligations seriously perhaps the tragedy of 9/11/2001 could have been prevented. [end snippet]

In the first paragraph you bold:
However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol.
Most of the South and Central Americans from that list enter through the Mexican border. So I count 7 of the 15 countries on that list coming from the Southern border. So the article is wrong, 8 of 15 countries is not "significant" enough to focus on any other border: North, East, or West over the South. The South is where roughly half of that 89% comes from, so of course we're going to focus on that first.

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

 

[OrByte]

Most of you need to stop with the generalizations, because the more you generalize the more you look racist. This isn't just a mexican thing...I wonder how many of you can reply to this post and agree with me that Illegal Immigration is not just a mexican thing? I would be willing to wager not many of you, because you are too wrapped up in trying to make your point that you fail to see your own poor behavior. This goes for both sides of the issue. We all make it into a Mexican/Mexican Border thing because that is what OUR MEDIA and OUR GOVERNMENT want us to do. Do you ever stop to ask yourselves WHY??

Let me help you.

The media is out to make $$, they could give a sh!t just as long as you tune in to watch the latest rally or political blowhard PUSH ALL OF YOUR BUTTONS. If there was any real attempt towards addressing the illegal issue you would hear more reports like the George Weissinger, Ph. D. report linked above. But you don't because stuff like this doesn't incite the masses.

The Government (or should I say people in power) want to stay in power. This is a wedge issue that will help drive the mindless sheeple to the voting ballots. Do you want real reform on immigration? because right now, not even your President is offering us a real solution...he is just paying you all lip service. 6,000 more Reservists on the border!?!? what the hell kind of solution is that? it is all lip service, meant to stoke the flames.

Again let me state that if we all wanted REAL immigration reform we wouldnt be having this discussion about our borders, we need real system reform. Border security is plugging a hole in the damn with your fingers.

Is this concept too hard to understand?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: AmerDoux

In the first paragraph you bold:
However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol.
Most of the South and Central Americans from that list enter through the Mexican border. So I count 7 of the 15 countries on that list coming from the Southern border. So the article is wrong, 8 of 15 countries is not "significant" enough to focus on any other border: North, East, or West over the South. The South is where roughly half of that 89% comes from, so of course we're going to focus on that first.

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

I think you fail to see the point of those numbers

"This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol"

But all you see on the news are pictures of illegals running through the desert.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

But what is it that our media and government is focusing on? borders. That solves maybe half the problem. Again, we are getting a slanted view of the situation..it is tailor made to incite us, and we buy it hook, line and sinker.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: AmerDoux

In the first paragraph you bold:
However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol.
Most of the South and Central Americans from that list enter through the Mexican border. So I count 7 of the 15 countries on that list coming from the Southern border. So the article is wrong, 8 of 15 countries is not "significant" enough to focus on any other border: North, East, or West over the South. The South is where roughly half of that 89% comes from, so of course we're going to focus on that first.

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

I think you fail to see the point of those numbers

"This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol"

But all you see on the news are pictures of illegals running through the desert.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

But what is it that our media and government is focusing on? borders. That solves maybe half the problem. Again, we are getting a slanted view of the situation..it is tailor made to incite us, and we buy it hook, line and sinker.

Yes, all borders should be increased with security but that is a monumental effort. The fact that half or more all come from the Southern border makes it easy to tackle first. Eventually more funding should be provided to the interior to detect fakes, as well as improved harbor defenses on our coastlines. Of course all this isn't going to be bundled up into a neat little package and addressed all at once, that seems what you're expecting.

Also, eventually businesses that hire illegals will be dealt with (I propose a national database tied to Soc Sec that every new hire will be checked against), and the biggest part which is helping Mexico's gov't create jobs for their working class (daunting task).

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: AmerDoux

In the first paragraph you bold:
However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol.
Most of the South and Central Americans from that list enter through the Mexican border. So I count 7 of the 15 countries on that list coming from the Southern border. So the article is wrong, 8 of 15 countries is not "significant" enough to focus on any other border: North, East, or West over the South. The South is where roughly half of that 89% comes from, so of course we're going to focus on that first.

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

I think you fail to see the point of those numbers

"This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol"

But all you see on the news are pictures of illegals running through the desert.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

As for increases resources for the interior, of course. As technology progresses, it's easier for illegals to obtain falsified documents, they will always be close to one step ahead of the INS's detection methods. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on the border either. Locking the border down is just as important as detecting fakes.

But what is it that our media and government is focusing on? borders. That solves maybe half the problem. Again, we are getting a slanted view of the situation..it is tailor made to incite us, and we buy it hook, line and sinker.

Yes, all borders should be increased with security but that is a monumental effort. The fact that half or more all come from the Southern border makes it easy to tackle first. Eventually more funding should be provided to the interior to detect fakes, as well as improved harbor defenses on our coastlines. Of course all this isn't going to be bundled up into a neat little package and addressed all at once, that seems what you're expecting.

Also, eventually businesses that hire illegals will be dealt with (I propose a national database tied to Soc Sec that every new hire will be checked against), and the biggest part which is helping Mexico's gov't create jobs for their working class (daunting task).

Dont make excuses for this pathetic plan drummed up by this administration. A "Neat little package," that is exactly what I am expecting. Is it too much to ask our administration to come up with a comprehensive solution to an issue that impacts all of us? Instead, we get this half-ass order for 6000 more troops on the mexican border. How is it that we cannot come up with a better solution?! The effort maybe "monumental" but this is the USA for crissakes...if we can't get it done who can? You know, I am willing to concede the fact that YES solving the mexican border situation is going to make a huge impact on the overall illegal immigration issue, but what about everything else? you would think that the President of the United States would make more of an effort in front of a prime time audience to inform us that this isnt just a Mexican Border issue...yet that is all he offered a solution to, it was like he was pandering for a specific purpose. imagine that!?!

This issue involves far more than just one border. Anything less than a comprehensive system overhaul is inadequate, and I have to question the motivations behind such a paltry offering.

And as for our media, I am sick and tired of hearing about illegal immigration and watching the scenes of mexicans running across the deserts like roaches. How the hell is that supposed to be OBJECTIVE Journalism?? I really can't blame America for jumping all over Illegal Mexicans, because that is ALL WE SEE. But my point is this; the issue is much bigger than Mexico and until we get our head out of our butts and make our media and government accountable, we are all being played like banjos.

 

[AmerDoux]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Yes, all borders should be increased with security but that is a monumental effort. The fact that half or more all come from the Southern border makes it easy to tackle first. Eventually more funding should be provided to the interior to detect fakes, as well as improved harbor defenses on our coastlines. Of course all this isn't going to be bundled up into a neat little package and addressed all at once, that seems what you're expecting.

Also, eventually businesses that hire illegals will be dealt with (I propose a national database tied to Soc Sec that every new hire will be checked against), and the biggest part which is helping Mexico's gov't create jobs for their working class (daunting task).

[snippet] The perception that the illegal alien problem begins and ends at the international borders is widely accepted. However, it is important to note that many illegal entries at the border are successful. Furthermore, many illegal aliens entered legally as temporary visitors at ports of entry throughout the United States. In 1996, about 41 percent of the illegal alien population were nonimmigrant overstays. That is, they entered the United States with tourist visas. (USINS, 2001) However, as indicated previously, the INS measures its effectiveness in terms of the numbers of Mexicans it apprehends along the southwest border of the United States. Well over 90% of annual apprehensions of illegal aliens are along the southwest border and are apprehensions of Mexican border crossers. The Border Patrol approach to the illegal alien problem is essentially a Mexico-United States problem. [end snippet]

All strategies implemented by the Border Patrol were met by a shift where illegals were crossing, equating in more deaths. It did nothing to stop the flow over the borders. Increasing the number of patrol units will not effectively stop the crossings.

[snippet] The data suggests that the illegal alien problem is more diverse than just a Mexico-US problem, especially the farther one travels from the southwest border. More important issues involving terrorism and crime should be the priority of any immigration law enforcement strategy. The interior enforcement apparatus continues to be based on a Border Patrol mentality. This mentality continues to focus on allocating most of the available resources on a cat and mouse game that has failed to deter the illegal entry of aliens into the United States. Utilizing this definition and applying such an enforcement strategy detracts from other critical needs and limits the scope of interior immigration law enforcement. [end snippet]

[snippet] The two major functions of the INS include service to the public and enforcement. The service to the public involves processing applications for benefits such as lawful permanent residence and citizenship. The assumption is that INS allocates equal priority to both functions. Even in the area of service, where most organizations attempt to satisfy their mandates, backlogs in applications (especially citizenship) also continues to plague the INS. (Chang, 1999) Any intelligent immigration enforcement strategy must include border security and interior enforcement. Interior enforcement includes investigations, deportation, and inspections, all separate units within the legacy INS. BICE admitted that the INS devoted over five times more resources to the Border Patrol than the Investigations Section. It listed five enforcement strategies for interior enforcement to follow including locating and removing criminal aliens, dismantling smuggling operations, responding to community complaints about illegal immigration, investigating document and benefit fraud, and access to illegal aliens by employers. (Stana, 2003) The new policies correctly address needed priorities in order to accomplish a meaningful interior enforcement of the immigration laws. However, on October 23, 2003, five months after this new policy was offered as testimony before the U. S. Congress, BICE initiated what was referred to as ?the largest crackdown in years,? (Greenhouse, 2003) Operation Rollback, a round up of 245 low-level workers who were part of cleanup crews for the Wal-Mart Stores Inc., based in Bentonville, Arkansas. (Sanger, 2003) Although these illegal aliens were from 18 countries, most of them were from Mexico (37%). Interestingly, immigration officials stated that if these illegal aliens did not have a previous criminal record, they would be released with notices to appear before Immigration Judges. Even though BICE is behind in its attempts to remove criminal aliens it decided to launch an enforcement strategy aimed at low-level workers in menial jobs. Although Operation Rollback can be classified as one of the new priorities, it is hardly an effective way to deter illegal immigration. Wal-Mart immediately distanced itself from the investigation and pointed the finger at contract employees who were to blame. Some politicians actually referred to the operation as ?terrorizing? workers and believed that there should be a ?better way? to solve the problem such as focusing on the employer instead of the illegal worker. (Reuters, 2003) This type of enforcement strategy is traditional in its approach. It is meant to create the impression that something is being done about the illegal alien problem but serves little else in terms of solving it. It is very likely that the illegal aliens released with notices to appear later will never show up at their appointed hearings. I have discussed the problems of interior enforcement elsewhere and the conclusion drawn form interviews with members of the Investigations Section is that INS never intended to enforce the immigration laws inside the United States. The morale in the Investigations Unit in New York, and nationally as well, was so low that many officers simply gave up and transferred to other agencies in the government. (Weissinger, 1996) [end snippet]

While the snippet above quotes that 37% of the illegals caught in Operation Rollback, that means that 63% were of other nationalities. This whole operation was a dog-&-pony show for the general public and we fed right into it.

 

[OrByte]

<crickets>

 

[CaptnKirk]

So effectivly the President, the Senate, and the House of Reprehensibles solution to the Mexican Border Crisis
is to fail to properly fund the Border Patrol - again and continuing, by placing the National Guard on the border
which diverts funds that the Border Patrol desparately needs for hiring Officers and procurment of Vehicles.

No Money Where It's Needed


And then, once again, tossing huge amounts af taxpayer money to the Military Industrial Complex
to reward their benefactors who fund and support their mindless agendas.

Military Contractors to the Rescue

I'll Take a Triple-Decker . . . With Fries


The gang that can't shoot anything but their own feet.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: AmerDoux

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Yes, all borders should be increased with security but that is a monumental effort. The fact that half or more all come from the Southern border makes it easy to tackle first. Eventually more funding should be provided to the interior to detect fakes, as well as improved harbor defenses on our coastlines. Of course all this isn't going to be bundled up into a neat little package and addressed all at once, that seems what you're expecting.

Also, eventually businesses that hire illegals will be dealt with (I propose a national database tied to Soc Sec that every new hire will be checked against), and the biggest part which is helping Mexico's gov't create jobs for their working class (daunting task).

[snippet] The perception that the illegal alien problem begins and ends at the international borders is widely accepted. However, it is important to note that many illegal entries at the border are successful. Furthermore, many illegal aliens entered legally as temporary visitors at ports of entry throughout the United States. In 1996, about 41 percent of the illegal alien population were nonimmigrant overstays. That is, they entered the United States with tourist visas. (USINS, 2001) However, as indicated previously, the INS measures its effectiveness in terms of the numbers of Mexicans it apprehends along the southwest border of the United States. Well over 90% of annual apprehensions of illegal aliens are along the southwest border and are apprehensions of Mexican border crossers. The Border Patrol approach to the illegal alien problem is essentially a Mexico-United States problem. [end snippet]

All strategies implemented by the Border Patrol were met by a shift where illegals were crossing, equating in more deaths. It did nothing to stop the flow over the borders. Increasing the number of patrol units will not effectively stop the crossings.

[snippet] The data suggests that the illegal alien problem is more diverse than just a Mexico-US problem, especially the farther one travels from the southwest border. More important issues involving terrorism and crime should be the priority of any immigration law enforcement strategy. The interior enforcement apparatus continues to be based on a Border Patrol mentality. This mentality continues to focus on allocating most of the available resources on a cat and mouse game that has failed to deter the illegal entry of aliens into the United States. Utilizing this definition and applying such an enforcement strategy detracts from other critical needs and limits the scope of interior immigration law enforcement. [end snippet]

[snippet] The two major functions of the INS include service to the public and enforcement. The service to the public involves processing applications for benefits such as lawful permanent residence and citizenship. The assumption is that INS allocates equal priority to both functions. Even in the area of service, where most organizations attempt to satisfy their mandates, backlogs in applications (especially citizenship) also continues to plague the INS. (Chang, 1999) Any intelligent immigration enforcement strategy must include border security and interior enforcement. Interior enforcement includes investigations, deportation, and inspections, all separate units within the legacy INS. BICE admitted that the INS devoted over five times more resources to the Border Patrol than the Investigations Section. It listed five enforcement strategies for interior enforcement to follow including locating and removing criminal aliens, dismantling smuggling operations, responding to community complaints about illegal immigration, investigating document and benefit fraud, and access to illegal aliens by employers. (Stana, 2003) The new policies correctly address needed priorities in order to accomplish a meaningful interior enforcement of the immigration laws. However, on October 23, 2003, five months after this new policy was offered as testimony before the U. S. Congress, BICE initiated what was referred to as ?the largest crackdown in years,? (Greenhouse, 2003) Operation Rollback, a round up of 245 low-level workers who were part of cleanup crews for the Wal-Mart Stores Inc., based in Bentonville, Arkansas. (Sanger, 2003) Although these illegal aliens were from 18 countries, most of them were from Mexico (37%). Interestingly, immigration officials stated that if these illegal aliens did not have a previous criminal record, they would be released with notices to appear before Immigration Judges. Even though BICE is behind in its attempts to remove criminal aliens it decided to launch an enforcement strategy aimed at low-level workers in menial jobs. Although Operation Rollback can be classified as one of the new priorities, it is hardly an effective way to deter illegal immigration. Wal-Mart immediately distanced itself from the investigation and pointed the finger at contract employees who were to blame. Some politicians actually referred to the operation as ?terrorizing? workers and believed that there should be a ?better way? to solve the problem such as focusing on the employer instead of the illegal worker. (Reuters, 2003) This type of enforcement strategy is traditional in its approach. It is meant to create the impression that something is being done about the illegal alien problem but serves little else in terms of solving it. It is very likely that the illegal aliens released with notices to appear later will never show up at their appointed hearings. I have discussed the problems of interior enforcement elsewhere and the conclusion drawn form interviews with members of the Investigations Section is that INS never intended to enforce the immigration laws inside the United States. The morale in the Investigations Unit in New York, and nationally as well, was so low that many officers simply gave up and transferred to other agencies in the government. (Weissinger, 1996) [end snippet]

While the snippet above quotes that 37% of the illegals caught in Operation Rollback, that means that 63% were of other nationalities. This whole operation was a dog-&-pony show for the general public and we fed right into it.

I'm failing to see your point other than the fact that interior resources should be increased, which I agree with. The fact that 91 Mexicans out of 245 were caught in a sting actually reinforces the point that the majority of illegals in the US are Mexicans, and that the southern border is and should be the top priority. The northern border and coastal security should be increased after that, prioritized on which poses the biggest threat next.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Yes, all borders should be increased with security but that is a monumental effort. The fact that half or more all come from the Southern border makes it easy to tackle first. Eventually more funding should be provided to the interior to detect fakes, as well as improved harbor defenses on our coastlines. Of course all this isn't going to be bundled up into a neat little package and addressed all at once, that seems what you're expecting.

Also, eventually businesses that hire illegals will be dealt with (I propose a national database tied to Soc Sec that every new hire will be checked against), and the biggest part which is helping Mexico's gov't create jobs for their working class (daunting task).

Dont make excuses for this pathetic plan drummed up by this administration. A "Neat little package," that is exactly what I am expecting. Is it too much to ask our administration to come up with a comprehensive solution to an issue that impacts all of us? Instead, we get this half-ass order for 6000 more troops on the mexican border. How is it that we cannot come up with a better solution?! The effort maybe "monumental" but this is the USA for crissakes...if we can't get it done who can? You know, I am willing to concede the fact that YES solving the mexican border situation is going to make a huge impact on the overall illegal immigration issue, but what about everything else? you would think that the President of the United States would make more of an effort in front of a prime time audience to inform us that this isnt just a Mexican Border issue...yet that is all he offered a solution to, it was like he was pandering for a specific purpose. imagine that!?!

This issue involves far more than just one border. Anything less than a comprehensive system overhaul is inadequate, and I have to question the motivations behind such a paltry offering.

And as for our media, I am sick and tired of hearing about illegal immigration and watching the scenes of mexicans running across the deserts like roaches. How the hell is that supposed to be OBJECTIVE Journalism?? I really can't blame America for jumping all over Illegal Mexicans, because that is ALL WE SEE. But my point is this; the issue is much bigger than Mexico and until we get our head out of our butts and make our media and government accountable, we are all being played like banjos.

I agree, the solution is pathetic but ANY solution is better than nothing at this point.

I also agree, the government should be able to come up with a comprehensive solution but you're forgetting about all of the politics involved with big business lobbyists. It's analogous to WHY we haven't developed hydrogen fuel cell technology yet: oil industry is c**kblocking it. Big business has a lot to lose in this deal, and I'm sure they are c**kblocking a comprehensive solution. The result is the pathetic administration's "plan". Hell, the fact that you or I can brainstorm on a forum and come up with better policy solutions than our elected leaders should tell you that. Just like the engineer who modified his Toyota Prius hybrid to get 2X its current mileage in his garage, it's bullsht and we all know it. We should have hydrogen fuel cell technology in cars by now as well.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Like a bad penny . . . it's back with a vengance

The building tension over illegal immigration's impact on America comes at a time when the FBI says that the number of hate-crime victims in 2004 ? the last year for which figures are available ? was 9,528, up nearly 5% from 2003.

The numbers don't approach the 12,020 hate-crime victims reported in 2001, when there were a rash of attacks against Muslims across the nation in the weeks after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Let's see, the FBI says that hate crime is up 5% from 2003. The number of illegals is up at least that since 2003. And your point is??

Whats your point? The population of the US also rose in that period, so yet again you fail to prove that illegals are the source of our crimes.

 

[AmerDoux]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I'm failing to see your point other than the fact that interior resources should be increased, which I agree with. The fact that 91 Mexicans out of 245 were caught in a sting actually reinforces the point that the majority of illegals in the US are Mexicans, and that the southern border is and should be the top priority. The northern border and coastal security should be increased after that, prioritized on which poses the biggest threat next.

Border Patrol has already been given 5x's the amount than Interior Enforcement and it still is not stopping the floods. What little attention has been given to Interior Enforcement has been useless. Nothing is being enforced. Businesses are not being held accountable. IE agents are so disgusted with the internal politics of thier organization they are quiting. You cannot simply put 6,000 troops on the border and expect that is a solution. These people are desperate. If you cut down their chances of crossing to 50/50, they will still do it. They will simply chose a riskier path of entry. The government must remove the cause, employment. We simply do not have the resources to round up all of the illegal aliens and then provide due process (and we are required to provide due process). Instead we need to aggressively go after the employers and not some BS where they back off because of politics.

There are huge politics involved in this. Big business like WalMart have been caught red-handed and they squirmed their way out of it. Why were they able to do that? Because they have $ and to politicians $ is what moves their puppet strings. Sending more guards to the border does not even begin to solve the problem. The politicians are pandering to the voters. If the administratioin was serious about stopping ALL illegals, they would put their efforts into supporting Internal Enforcement.

The statistics of how many illegals are Mexicans changes depending on the location within the US. The article I linked does not shrink from reporting that this group is a problem, but it also points out that they are not the only problem and depending on where you are looking, other groups are equal if not more of a problem. What about all of the students who are here on expired visa's? They are working and not taking away low paying labor jobs, they are taking higher paying jobs. For political purposes, it is much more dazzling to use Border Patrol #'s. It is also much easier to make the public believe you are doing something by sending troops to the border. They can see it and watch news reports on it. It is tangible and the public buys into it. What you can see is not necessarily what is needed. A complete overhaul with serious obligation to remove the root of the problem, go after the employers. This tactic will effectively remove ALL illegals.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: RichardE
Nothing wrong with protecting your interests against criminals...


Illegals "Are" criminals.

Go fsck off. That what ignorant comments like yours make me want to say.

CaptnKirk is right. The illegal immigration issue if chock full of racism.

but they are, being illegaly in the country is what defines them as a group

Only if you choose to define them that way. The people who protested in Tienamen square were criminals, but that isn't what defines them.

The "illegal" immigrants in the USA are hard working people looking to make their own lives better, and in doing so make America a better place. That is how I define them.

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: RichardE
Nothing wrong with protecting your interests against criminals...


Illegals "Are" criminals.

Go fsck off. That what ignorant comments like yours make me want to say.

CaptnKirk is right. The illegal immigration issue if chock full of racism.

but they are, being illegaly in the country is what defines them as a group

Only if you choose to define them that way. The people who protested in Tienamen square were criminals, but that isn't what defines them.

The "illegal" immigrants in the USA are hard working people looking to make their own lives better, and in doing so make America a better place. That is how I define them.

Easy to sit in your chair in Ohio and be alloof about the issue eh? Laws are now defined by convenience rather than the will of the people? Insanity.....

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Should have seen this airplane trailing one of those long signs at the protest the other day circling over thousands: NO AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS BEANERS GO HOME.

Ok, I gotta admit. . .THAT IS racist. For obvious reasons. These guys have it all wrong. . .The illegals gotta go. ALL of them. You can't single out any one particular ethnicity. The law must be applied equally across the board. That banner is just sick.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

So even if it's true it's racist?

The fact that people are only concerned with the law in terms of ONE specific racial group -- well -- that is racist.

I agree, THAT IS racist. But that is the misguided, uneducated, inbred, redneck hillbilly portion of the people who are anti-illegal. They have their own agenda. And most of us want nothing to do with them. But how is us wanting them gone any more potentially racist than big companies exploiting them and paying them less than what we in this country consider fair wages just because they are illegal and Mexican?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: AmerDoux

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I'm failing to see your point other than the fact that interior resources should be increased, which I agree with. The fact that 91 Mexicans out of 245 were caught in a sting actually reinforces the point that the majority of illegals in the US are Mexicans, and that the southern border is and should be the top priority. The northern border and coastal security should be increased after that, prioritized on which poses the biggest threat next.

Border Patrol has already been given 5x's the amount than Interior Enforcement and it still is not stopping the floods. What little attention has been given to Interior Enforcement has been useless. Nothing is being enforced. Businesses are not being held accountable. IE agents are so disgusted with the internal politics of thier organization they are quiting. You cannot simply put 6,000 troops on the border and expect that is a solution. These people are desperate. If you cut down their chances of crossing to 50/50, they will still do it. They will simply chose a riskier path of entry. The government must remove the cause, employment. We simply do not have the resources to round up all of the illegal aliens and then provide due process (and we are required to provide due process). Instead we need to aggressively go after the employers and not some BS where they back off because of politics.

There are huge politics involved in this. Big business like WalMart have been caught red-handed and they squirmed their way out of it. Why were they able to do that? Because they have $ and to politicians $ is what moves their puppet strings. Sending more guards to the border does not even begin to solve the problem. The politicians are pandering to the voters. If the administratioin was serious about stopping ALL illegals, they would put their efforts into supporting Internal Enforcement.

The statistics of how many illegals are Mexicans changes depending on the location within the US. The article I linked does not shrink from reporting that this group is a problem, but it also points out that they are not the only problem and depending on where you are looking, other groups are equal if not more of a problem. What about all of the students who are here on expired visa's? They are working and not taking away low paying labor jobs, they are taking higher paying jobs. For political purposes, it is much more dazzling to use Border Patrol #'s. It is also much easier to make the public believe you are doing something by sending troops to the border. They can see it and watch news reports on it. It is tangible and the public buys into it. What you can see is not necessarily what is needed. A complete overhaul with serious obligation to remove the root of the problem, go after the employers. This tactic will effectively remove ALL illegals.

Yes, totally agree. However, I still think you need both stronger borders/fake doc detection as well as going after the businesses with a new system + legislation. Just because border patrol and interior INS are failing now, doesn't mean we can't improve/revive it. We just need a new administration that doesn't pander to big business.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Like a bad penny . . . it's back with a vengance

The building tension over illegal immigration's impact on America comes at a time when the FBI says that the number of hate-crime victims in 2004 ? the last year for which figures are available ? was 9,528, up nearly 5% from 2003.

The numbers don't approach the 12,020 hate-crime victims reported in 2001, when there were a rash of attacks against Muslims across the nation in the weeks after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Let's see, the FBI says that hate crime is up 5% from 2003. The number of illegals is up at least that since 2003. And your point is??

Whats your point? The population of the US also rose in that period, so yet again you fail to prove that illegals are the source of our crimes.

You're talking about a 3 year period. . .so you're saying 3 year-olds are going around committing crimes? Illegal immigrants are part of that population growth you are talking about too. A large part!