Discussion Bill Clinton: ‘There Is a Limit’ to How Many Migrants U.S. Can Take

[NWRMidnight]

What would you use then? It would certainly be a problem if they all came at once, but as long as they trickle in a few thousand at a time we can scale up our economy with them.
More mouths = more hands = more work = more prosperity.
That is how an economy should work.

How about arable land (able to support growing crops) since it is a major deciding factor on how many people a country can reliably sustain over time? It is also one of many major factors. Example, India has a little over 50% of it's land is arable, where the US is just under 17%.. Now that is also skewed because it's based on percentage of country total land. The US actually has more acreage that is arable land than India. But then you have to get into ease of access, ability to farm the land (equipment, man power etc).. there are many factors that go into determining how many people a country can sustain. Population density does not determine that.. it is the product or results of those factors.

 

[darkswordsman17]

@13Gigatons Found any evidence to provide us yet?

In order for him to provide such, it would require him to uncork his head from his ass first, as that's where he's sourcing his opinions.

 

[Muse]

nm

 

[SMOGZINN]

How about arable land (able to support growing crops) since it is a major deciding factor on how many people a country can reliably sustain over time? It is also one of many major factors. Example, India has a little over 50% of it's land is arable, where the US is just under 17%.. Now that is also skewed because it's based on percentage of country total land. The US actually has more acreage that is arable land than India. But then you have to get into ease of access, ability to farm the land (equipment, man power etc).. there are many factors that go into determining how many people a country can sustain. Population density does not determine that.. it is the product or results of those factors.

That is an interesting metric to use, and one I would be willing to entertain, but I would point out that the US currently produces enough food to feed around 2 billion people just in it's grain production. The problem with food is not production but distribution, specifically profit motive.

 

[Pens1566]

That is an interesting metric to use, and one I would be willing to entertain, but I would point out that the US currently produces enough food to feed around 2 billion people just in it's grain production. The problem with food is not production but distribution, specifically profit motive.

Does that 2B account for subsidies paid to farmers to not grow crops?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Does that 2B account for subsidies paid to farmers to not grow crops?

Nope, just what we actually produce. I saw a recent study that said that the US wheat production alone could feed 9 billion people if we went all out producing as much as possible.

 

[Pens1566]

Nope, just what we actually produce. I saw a recent study that said that the US wheat production alone could feed 9 billion people if we went all out producing as much as possible.

That's what I figured, just wanted to be sure. Yeah, we could really open it up if we wanted to and had the ability to do so.

 

[mikeymikec]

I wish I knew why the likes of @13Gigatons evidently feel OK with the idea of an intellectual shit-and-run. I mean, I'd feel stupid if I had made outrageous, baseless and Trump-like claims only to be called on it and realise I've got nothing, but was this a troll, complete indifference to honest discussion and veracity, or what?

 

[hal2kilo]

Spoken like a true barely left of center democrat.

 

[13Gigatons]

I wish I knew why the likes of @13Gigatons evidently feel OK with the idea of an intellectual shit-and-run. I mean, I'd feel stupid if I had made outrageous, baseless and Trump-like claims only to be called on it and realise I've got nothing, but was this a troll, complete indifference to honest discussion and veracity, or what?

Didn't seem worth the time or effort considering the attitude and language of the replies.
Some things are self evident:
The economic cost to taxpayers can't be ignored. It's costing the states Billions in temporary housing, health care, food, etc.
The over run shelters: https://nypost.com/2022/10/08/ny-mayor-eric-adams-digs-in-despite-overrun-shelters/
The crime they commit are real and have impacts on average Americans.
Dramatic change in neighborhoods and cities.

 

[Paratus]

Didn't seem worth the time or effort considering the attitude and language of the replies.
Some things are self evident:
The economic cost to taxpayers can't be ignored. It's costing the states Billions in temporary housing, health care, food, etc.
The over run shelters: https://nypost.com/2022/10/08/ny-mayor-eric-adams-digs-in-despite-overrun-shelters/
The crime they commit are real and have impacts on average Americans.
Dramatic change in neighborhoods and cities.

Well sure they cost money except for the $2T dollars in GDP and $460B in taxes they pay.

From wiki
“Nearly every dollar earned by undocumented immigrants is spent immediately, and the average wage for US citizens is $10.25/hour with an average of 34 hours per week. This means that approximately 8 million US jobs are dependent upon economic activity produced by undocumented immigrant activities within the US.[17][18][19] The U.S. government continues to stop immigration from Mexico even though it has done harm on wages in a number of industries. Immigrants have helped the U.S. tremendously and have created jobs for Americans and immigrants. Studies have shown that they contributed 2 trillion to the U.S. GDP in 2016 and have contributed 458.7 billion to federal taxes.[20][21]”

 

[mikeymikec]

Didn't seem worth the time or effort considering the attitude and language of the replies.
Some things are self evident:
The economic cost to taxpayers can't be ignored. It's costing the states Billions in temporary housing, health care, food, etc.
The over run shelters: https://nypost.com/2022/10/08/ny-mayor-eric-adams-digs-in-despite-overrun-shelters/
The crime they commit are real and have impacts on average Americans.
Dramatic change in neighborhoods and cities.

The first reply to your comment simply asked for information, you ignored that too.

Here's what you wrote:

I hate flood migration. It changes towns overnight. Some places are just war zones now. They were such nice areas with restaurants, clubs, bars, stores. All gone now. Don't go out at night and lock your doors.
A few migrants from diverse countries are good.....let them melt in slowly.

Emphasis mine on the language you've used and you haven't provided one citation for it.

I think it's also pertinent to point out that your OP started with how you apparently rate presidents by the number of deportations. I challenged you on that point, so you shifted to "flood migration", so you were challenged on that point then you shifted again to "the cost to taxpayers can't be ignored".

 

[pmv]

That is an interesting metric to use, and one I would be willing to entertain, but I would point out that the US currently produces enough food to feed around 2 billion people just in it's grain production. The problem with food is not production but distribution, specifically profit motive.

Water would seem to be a potential limiting-factor.

Certainly, for Australia at least, it seems, from my inexpert perspective, that water supply is the main limit on what population could be supported.

If talking about arable land, does that not include an assumption that it's essential to be self-sufficient? I mean, that's not an absurd assumption, but it seems like it should be made explicit. And (this is relevant to the UK, not so sure about the US) even if you are self-sufficient in food, are you self-sufficient in the fertilizer needed to grow that food?

Seems to me the US has extremely low population density compared to Europe. Pretty sure you could fit a lot more people in there. Higher population density would probably improve the politics also.

 

[brycejones]

The first reply to your comment simply asked for information, you ignored that too.

Here's what you wrote:



Emphasis mine on the language you've used and you haven't provided one citation for it.

I think it's also pertinent to point out that your OP started with how you apparently rate presidents by the number of deportations. I challenged you on that point, so you shifted to "flood migration", so you were challenged on that point then you shifted again to "the cost to taxpayers can't be ignored".

Since he can't support anything he has said @13Gigatons only option is to keep moving the goal posts.

 

[dank69]

Didn't seem worth the time or effort considering the attitude and language of the replies.
Some things are self evident:
The economic cost to taxpayers can't be ignored. It's costing the states Billions in temporary housing, health care, food, etc.
The over run shelters: https://nypost.com/2022/10/08/ny-mayor-eric-adams-digs-in-despite-overrun-shelters/
The crime they commit are real and have impacts on average Americans.
Dramatic change in neighborhoods and cities.

Just say you were wrong like a big boy. By the way, you are wrong about all this other stuff, too, except maybe the shelters. The solution to that is to fund more shelters.

 

[pmv]

A lot of people swallow conservative media bullshit whole. I lived in Chicago for a long time and whenever I'd interact with people elsewhere who clearly watch nothing but Fox they basically ask if I'm afraid to live in a lawless hellscape. Just totally divorced from any sort of reality.

I'd be much more put-off by the climate! Seems that "spring" lasts about 24 hours there, before the temperature flips from -40C with windchill to +40C with humidity.

 

[soundforbjt]

A lot of people swallow conservative media bullshit whole. I lived in Chicago for a long time and whenever I'd interact with people elsewhere who clearly watch nothing but Fox they basically ask if I'm afraid to live in a lawless hellscape. Just totally divorced from any sort of reality.

I heard an interesting fact the other day. You know how Faux News love to rant about big liberal city crime? Turns out the largest increases in homicide rates are 9 states that voted trump, yep all red states.

 

[brycejones]

I heard an interesting fact the other day. You know how Faux News love to rant about big liberal city crime? Turns out the largest increases in homicide rates are 9 states that voted trump, yep all red states.

See the criminals are going to war against the god fearing Trump voters. White folks are under siege


Tuveville played into this ina speech where he equated reparations with giving money to the criminals.

 

[K1052]

I'd be much more put-off by the climate! Seems that "spring" lasts about 24 hours there, before the temperature flips from -40C with windchill to +40C with humidity.

Spring lasts longer than that (erm usually) but you have to watch out for the first two false springs in March and April. Spring in Chicago is glorious and I assume what heaven must feel like should it exist. Average in the summer doesn't usually break 30C but the humidity can be an issue.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Just say you were wrong like a big boy. By the way, you are wrong about all this other stuff, too, except maybe the shelters. The solution to that is to fund more shelters.

He can't. Cause he's just another right wing crybaby bitch that can't handle his bullshit being called out.

Well sure they cost money except for the $2T dollars in GDP and $460B in taxes they pay.

From wiki
“Nearly every dollar earned by undocumented immigrants is spent immediately, and the average wage for US citizens is $10.25/hour with an average of 34 hours per week. This means that approximately 8 million US jobs are dependent upon economic activity produced by undocumented immigrant activities within the US.[17][18][19] The U.S. government continues to stop immigration from Mexico even though it has done harm on wages in a number of industries. Immigrants have helped the U.S. tremendously and have created jobs for Americans and immigrants. Studies have shown that they contributed 2 trillion to the U.S. GDP in 2016 and have contributed 458.7 billion to federal taxes.[20][21]”

Now, now, don't let things like facts get in the way of his racist shitposting.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Water would seem to be a potential limiting-factor.

I agree, I don't think I've seen any research on how limited water supply might effect population caps. I am positive such research exists, I just have not read it.

If talking about arable land, does that not include an assumption that it's essential to be self-sufficient? I mean, that's not an absurd assumption, but it seems like it should be made explicit.

That matters on exactly what you mean by 'self-sufficient'. The numbers I gave was just based on calories per day, which is an unrealistic number as there is much more to a sufficient diet than calories, so it assumes that you will trade quite a lot of those calories for foods grown by others to get the nutrients needed. You can't exactly live indefinitely on a diet of just wheat. I'm not sure that anywhere is truly self-sufficient in that concept.

And (this is relevant to the UK, not so sure about the US) even if you are self-sufficient in food, are you self-sufficient in the fertilizer needed to grow that food?

The EU might have some problems with this (as nitrogen fertilizer is made from natural gas), but I think the US is a net exporter of industrial fertilizer.

Seems to me the US has extremely low population density compared to Europe. Pretty sure you could fit a lot more people in there. Higher population density would probably improve the politics also.

I agree. The American people don't seem to realize that compared to Europe our population density is very low, even in our largest cities.

 

[13Gigatons]

Just say you were wrong like a big boy. By the way, you are wrong about all this other stuff, too, except maybe the shelters. The solution to that is to fund more shelters.

I admit you guys are stubborn and virtual signaling. You are probably posting from your condo's or rich suburbs. You aren't the ones getting shot, stabbed, raped, car jacked, robbed, having your catalytic convertor stolen for the 4th time. Watch all the businesses flee the area. Being offered lower wages because some illegal is willing to work for half the price. It's easy to judge from the safety and comfort of the Castle.

I know America will end up becoming Juárez, Mexico because the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[mikeymikec]

You are probably posting from your condo's or rich suburbs. You aren't the ones getting shot, stabbed, raped, car jacked, robbed, having your catalytic convertor stolen for the 4th time.

You are then? And as a result, you started a thread talking about rating Presidents by the number of deportations during their time in office?

Because if I were in your shoes and I had witnessed (see quote) on a regular basis, I'd start a thread about that and include pictures/videos I'd taken, links to news articles, etc.... rather than rant about immigrants in a roundabout way like I just finished watching Fox News.

 

[pmv]

I admit you guys are stubborn and virtual signaling. You are probably posting from your condo's or rich suburbs.

LOL.

That matters on exactly what you mean by 'self-sufficient'. The numbers I gave was just based on calories per day, which is an unrealistic number as there is much more to a sufficient diet than calories, so it assumes that you will trade quite a lot of those calories for foods grown by others to get the nutrients needed. You can't exactly live indefinitely on a diet of just wheat. I'm not sure that anywhere is truly self-sufficient in that concept.

Can't tell from that if you've misinterpreted my point or not.

To be clear, I mean 'self sufficient' at the level of the nation state, not the individual (I don't mean Red Squirrel type supporting yourself 'off grid'). I think there's a defensible case for countries being able to feed themselves, in this era of global instability and random outbreaks of war. And that is, I guess, going to put an upper-bound on population levels.

But, as I say, the complication is that to grow food you need a lot of other resources as well, most obviously fertilizer.

 

[dank69]

I admit you guys are stubborn and virtual signaling. You are probably posting from your condo's or rich suburbs. You aren't the ones getting shot, stabbed, raped, car jacked, robbed, having your catalytic convertor stolen for the 4th time. Watch all the businesses flee the area. Being offered lower wages because some illegal is willing to work for half the price. It's easy to judge from the safety and comfort of the Castle.

I know America will end up becoming Juárez, Mexico because the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

So you still can't provide examples to back up any of your claims?