Bill Clinton's Advice

[cwjerome]

Clinton, in his first comments on President Bush's re-election, yesterday urged Democrats not to "whine" about the outcome, but to find a "clear national message."

What does this mean find a "clear national message?" Could he possibly be saying the Dems are influenced too much by the left-wing bomb throwers like many of those around P&N? Is he saying that Dems need to lose the right-wing-religious-fanatic-ignorant-redneck-stupid-racist-fascist strategy? Hmmm....

Clinton attributed Kerry's loss to the Democrats' failure to combat how they were portrayed by Republicans to small-town America. "If we let people believe that our party doesn't believe in faith and family, doesn't believe in work and freedom, that's our fault," he said.

Clinton said the country was more divided than it was in 1968 and called for an end to the "culture war." I think even Clinton acknowledges that the war is being waged on both sides, and the arrogant elites on the Left are losing... losing it big for the Dems.

Anyone , except for the hard right, can see it should have been easy to defeat Bush. His approval ratings were low. An increasing number of of people say the country is on the wrong track and are losing support for the war in Iraq. The deficit is skyrocketing. Meanwhile, the Dems spent huge sums of money, had tremendous support from celebrities and media, registered many new voters, and look at the results. They were all so confident... it was in the bag!

Yeah likability and straightfowardness trump "nuance", debate skills, and even raw intelligence. Yeah the Bush campaign swam circles around the Kerry campaign. Yeah the Dems desperately need to find more attractive candidates. But, all those things are tied into the simple fact that the populace as a whole has become more politically conservative in recent years, and the Dems slash and burn campaign against traditional and moderate Americans has people backing off.

The reality is, a good number of moderates supported Bush, and that's why he won. Those moderates were values-based votes, and the Dems will be doomed to permanent minority-party status until they drop the arrogant elites from their cause and make themselves more appealing. Clinton is right.

 

[Red Dawn]

So as long as the Dub supported Fundi Values it didn't matter that he sucked as a President. Funny how things change. Just 8 years ago Clinton was seen as the antitheses of Fundi Values but won because he was doing a good job.

 

[cwjerome]

It's not about "Fundi Values" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. That's the crap I'm talking about... it just turns people off. It's about not attacking average people as racist, fascist, jesus-freaks.

For the black and white concrete-bound people, accepting and appealing to the mainstream somehow means going to a trailer park church and screaming hate towards gays. There's a total disconnect from the realities of middle America. I'm starting to think many of you are a lost cause.

Cinton was a southern moderate and a good ol' boy. He could appeal to the middle and right of center moderates. I don't think you'll ever find Clinton palling around with Michael Moore.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
It's not about "Fundi Values" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. That's the crap I'm talking about... it just turns people off. It's about not attacking average people as racist, fascist, jesus-freaks.

For the black and white concrete-bound people, accepting and appealing to the mainstream somehow means going to a trailer park church and screaming hate towards gays. There's a total disconnect from the realities of middle America. I'm starting to think many of you are a lost cause.

Cinton was a southern moderate and a good ol' boy. He could appeal to the middle and right of center moderates. I don't think you'll ever find Clinton palling around with Michael Moore.

Avarage people can just as well as anybody else be racists, fascists and jesus-freaks , no?

Facts are that the people who voted for Bush voted for a guy who who started a war to further his political agenda, a guy who supports religious fanaticism, state terrorism, people who boil other people to death, international lawlessness etc. ad nauseam.

Please tell me what exactly are those "moral values" Bush supporters refer to?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Clinton, in his first comments on President Bush's re-election, yesterday urged Democrats not to "whine" about the outcome, but to find a "clear national message."

What does this mean find a "clear national message?" Could he possibly be saying the Dems are influenced too much by the left-wing bomb throwers like many of those around P&N? Is he saying that Dems need to lose the right-wing-religious-fanatic-ignorant-redneck-stupid-racist-fascist strategy? Hmmm....

Clinton attributed Kerry's loss to the Democrats' failure to combat how they were portrayed by Republicans to small-town America. "If we let people believe that our party doesn't believe in faith and family, doesn't believe in work and freedom, that's our fault," he said.

Clinton said the country was more divided than it was in 1968 and called for an end to the "culture war." I think even Clinton acknowledges that the war is being waged on both sides, and the arrogant elites on the Left are losing... losing it big for the Dems.

Anyone , except for the hard right, can see it should have been easy to defeat Bush. His approval ratings were low. An increasing number of of people say the country is on the wrong track and are losing support for the war in Iraq. The deficit is skyrocketing. Meanwhile, the Dems spent huge sums of money, had tremendous support from celebrities and media, registered many new voters, and look at the results. They were all so confident... it was in the bag!

Yeah likability and straightfowardness trump "nuance", debate skills, and even raw intelligence. Yeah the Bush campaign swam circles around the Kerry campaign. Yeah the Dems desperately need to find more attractive candidates. But, all those things are tied into the simple fact that the populace as a whole has become more politically conservative in recent years, and the Dems slash and burn campaign against traditional and moderate Americans has people backing off.

The reality is, a good number of moderates supported Bush, and that's why he won. Those moderates were values-based votes, and the Dems will be doomed to permanent minority-party status until they drop the arrogant elites from their cause and make themselves more appealing. Clinton is right.

I think you're misunderstanding what Clinton said. First of all, he said that Democrats need to combat how they are portrayed in small town America. And we all know how they are protrayed, as "arrogant elites of the left" as you put it. Republicans did a great job of attacking the values of the Dems and the left, effectly convicing a large number of people that only Bush valued their morals and beliefs and that Kerry and the left would turn America into one big gay orgy.

Any "cultural war" is about propaganda, and what seems more likely, that Democrats and the Left (which is 48% of the country, last time we checked) are dominated and in league with arrogant elitist "bomb-throwers" or that this is simply how the Republicans portray them? If you expect the left to believe the right isn't captivated by religious fundies, I think it's only reasonable that you apply your same anti-stereotype beliefs to the left.

It seems like Clinton's point is the left needs to get its message out there to the Red States and rural areas where more conservative people seem fairly convinced that Democrats are the party of sin and low morals. Anyone who knows a good variety of lefties and righties knows that the stupid stereotypes on both sides are untrue, but the left needs to be more effective at fighting the image.

And by the way, the ONLY reason Bush was able to win was the whole "morals" thing. The right has always been the side that makes a big deal of their morals. As the old joke goes, if you've ever refered to the "moral fiber" of something, you just might be a conservative. It's the right's big campaign point, sometimes their ONLY campaign point. While I think the image of the immoral left is based on stupidity and propaganda (wasn't it said in the south that Kerry wanted to ban the Bible), the Democrats need to realize that a lot of people care about morals in politics and they need to talk about it. The problem is that the Democrats don't talk about it very much or make much of a case, their ideas may be fine, but in the absense of other information, people seem to believe the propaganda.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
It's not about "Fundi Values" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. That's the crap I'm talking about... it just turns people off. It's about not attacking average people as racist, fascist, jesus-freaks.

For the black and white concrete-bound people, accepting and appealing to the mainstream somehow means going to a trailer park church and screaming hate towards gays. There's a total disconnect from the realities of middle America. I'm starting to think many of you are a lost cause.

Cinton was a southern moderate and a good ol' boy. He could appeal to the middle and right of center moderates. I don't think you'll ever find Clinton palling around with Michael Moore.

I just want to point out that 54% of people who called themselves Moderates voted for Kerry. The Liberal and Conservative votes were split among obvious lines, but of course there are more Conservatives than Liberals.

The problem isn't with "Middle America", the problem IS with the more conservative crowd. I'm not saying they are "fundies" or anything stupid like that, but pretending Bush's major support was from the moderates is silly, because it's clearly untrue (at least with any data I can find). That doesn't mean Democrats don't need to try to attract the people who didn't vote for them of course, and the way to do that is to appeal more to conservative values, not moderate ones.

 

[SickBeast]

Clinton is a brilliant politician with incredible vision and foresight. He should be listened to by American politicians on both sides. His situation was extrememly unfortunate. I view him as the greatest US president since JFK from a strictly political standpoint.

 

[Rob9874]

cwjerome, a few questions for you:

When was the last time you went to church, or read the bible?
Do you side with the Religious Right on most social issues?
Did you vote for Bush?
Why?

 

[cwjerome]

Sickbeast, Clinton is a VERY good politician, and I don't make the mistake many on the Left do by thinking everyone I disagree with is dumb. Clinton's a bright dude. I do think he was wrong on many issues, although not a strongly as some might expect. My main problem with Clinton was his drifting, incoherent foreign policy that failed miserably. Bush is having to do the very hard, ugly work of digging ourselves out. It actually goes back to at least 1979, but Clinton was the most recent and damaging.

-----------------

Rob... I'm curious why you'd ask....

Church? Hmmm, does attending a wedding count? Probably not... I went a couple times as a kid with friend's family or something.

Bible? Never opened one.

Religious Right? I dunno... not really. I respect their beliefs and see why they think that way, even though some are pretty damn extreme. I am not threatened by them, and think they are an important piece of the diverse democratic foundation of this country. I used to be pretty heavy libertarian thinking socially, but as I get older I see the need for some basic social-moral structure. I think most on the religious right just want to live their lives their way and be left alone, and any outlash is the result of the arrogant elites waging war on them. That's what this whole "culture war" really is- a defensive reaction from the religious right saying leave us the fvck alone. I do think the religious right is not as pervasive as the Left believes, and is a convenient boogeyman for them.

I voted for Bush mainly on foreign policy and taxes. My biggest problem has been spending/deficits (much blame for congress on that too).

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Bible? Never opened one.

Are you sure you want to pass yourself off as educated and intellectual?

I voted for Bush mainly on foreign policy and taxes. My biggest problem has been spending/deficits (much blame for congress on that too).

Bush has done a really good job with the deficits and spending.

:roll:

 

[cwjerome]

"Are you sure you want to pass yourself off as educated and intellectual?"

I'm not religious and I don't get into religious discussions. What is your comment supposed to mean?

"Bush has done a really good job with the deficits and spending."

Like I said, it's my biggest problem with him. Your point?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
"Bush has done a really good job with the deficits and spending."

Like I said, it's my biggest problem with him. Your point?

Sorry, your writing wasn't clear at all. If you blame it on Bush that is fair since he has never vetoed any spending.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Anyone , except for the hard right, can see it should have been easy to defeat Bush. His approval ratings were low. An increasing number of of people say the country is on the wrong track and are losing support for the war in Iraq. The deficit is skyrocketing. Meanwhile, the Dems spent huge sums of money, had tremendous support from celebrities and media, registered many new voters, and look at the results. They were all so confident... it was in the bag!

Yeah likability and straightfowardness trump "nuance", debate skills, and even raw intelligence. Yeah the Bush campaign swam circles around the Kerry campaign. Yeah the Dems desperately need to find more attractive candidates. But, all those things are tied into the simple fact that the populace as a whole has become more politically conservative in recent years, and the Dems slash and burn campaign against traditional and moderate Americans has people backing off.

The reality is, a good number of moderates supported Bush, and that's why he won. Those moderates were values-based votes, and the Dems will be doomed to permanent minority-party status until they drop the arrogant elites from their cause and make themselves more appealing. Clinton is right.

Again, you make is sound like the democrats are the only ones who spent larger sums of money over the Republican Party, yet you don't even back it up. The Bush "Smear" campagin swam circles around Kerry without a doubt. How do get that the populace is politically more conservative? How is this a "Slash and Burn Campagin?" How are we suppose to drop our "Arrogant Elites" exactly?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I voted for Bush mainly on foreign policy and taxes. My biggest problem has been spending/deficits (much blame for congress on that too).

You voted for Bush on FP Issuses? I guess you don't like the rest of the world...

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Sickbeast, Clinton is a VERY good politician, and I don't make the mistake many on the Left do by thinking everyone I disagree with is dumb. Clinton's a bright dude. I do think he was wrong on many issues, although not a strongly as some might expect. My main problem with Clinton was his drifting, incoherent foreign policy that failed miserably. Bush is having to do the very hard, ugly work of digging ourselves out. It actually goes back to at least 1979, but Clinton was the most recent and damaging.

I'd be interested in knowing what was wrong with Clinton's foreign policy, at least from your perspective. From my view he didn't step on anyone's feet and acted as a diplomat in most situations. How you can say he failed when your country was at peace during his rule baffles me in all honesty. It's almost as though you're blaming Iraq and Bush's foreign policy failings on Clinton.

From my historical understanding of US foreign policy, Eisenhower started your nation's aggressive stance during WWII (he really had no choice). This marked a shift that has lasted to present day, more or less.

What happened in 1979?

 

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Rob... I'm curious why you'd ask....

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Bible? Never opened one.

Are you sure you want to pass yourself off as educated and intellectual?

That's why. They assume all conservatives are religious whackos. And you're a great example of a true conservative, who has no interest in religion.

 

[cwjerome]

Conservatives come from all stripes

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Rob9874
They assume all conservatives are religious whackos.

Nice strawman. Who assumes that?

 

[cwjerome]

Sickbeast says, "I'd be interested in knowing what was wrong with Clinton's foreign policy, at least from your perspective. From my view he didn't step on anyone's feet and acted as a diplomat in most situations. How you can say he failed when your country was at peace during his rule baffles me in all honesty. It's almost as though you're blaming Iraq and Bush's foreign policy failings on Clinton."

Ah yes, not being an American I can see how you would find not stepping on anyone's feet a good thing. But that doesn't mean someone is doing a good job... in fact in this world, if you're not stepping on someone's feet sometime, there's simply something wrong. And there was. The fact that we were "at peace" during his terms is illusionary, and part of the problem. We pretended to be at peace, while fanatics built power and waged war. We did not engage our enemies with the proper response required. I believe Clinton did not want to rock the boat, and took the easy way out... this only increased our problems for another day.

Clinton's policies we not so much a policy, but a random conglomeration of acts and words that weren't connected and were often contradictory. It was a reactive policy of countering whatever happened on a given day. And most of all, they were policies that surrendered America's interests to the "needs" and opinions of the UN and other nations. It was a debasing, appeasing, and spectacular failure in two primary areas: Korea and the "War on Terrorism".

To be fair, Clinton is not the only villain in foreign policy and has suffered (partly) for the sins of his predecessors. In particular, George H.W. Bush left such a legacy of indecision, appeasement and American self-sacrifice that trying to continue his duty-ridden promises to be the world's policeman placed us in an anomalous position of having made suicidal commitments that were grossly immoral to keep. But the fact that Clinton had 8 years to get it right and instead only made it worse is the worst aspect of his presidency. To me, anyways.

 

[imported_Condor]

This pretty much proves that Hilary is trying to run in 08 and the leader of the Democratic Party is publicaly moving nearer the center to assure her success. Remember his turn around from wanting his legacy to be Peace in the Middle East until Hilary needed the Jewish vote in NYC to win the state?

 

[Geekbabe]

Clinton is telling baby boomers that we'd best wake up and get busy,that we've grown complacent and forgotten the important message that if we don't guard our freedoms we will see them erode away from us.

Keep in mind that many Dem's are baby boomers, the generation that put the letter "A" in activism.We need to bring some of that spirit back into our party and into our daily lives and in the causes we support. Too many of us have become apolitical.

 

[Luck JF]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: cwjerome
It's not about "Fundi Values" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. That's the crap I'm talking about... it just turns people off. It's about not attacking average people as racist, fascist, jesus-freaks.

For the black and white concrete-bound people, accepting and appealing to the mainstream somehow means going to a trailer park church and screaming hate towards gays. There's a total disconnect from the realities of middle America. I'm starting to think many of you are a lost cause.

Cinton was a southern moderate and a good ol' boy. He could appeal to the middle and right of center moderates. I don't think you'll ever find Clinton palling around with Michael Moore.

Avarage people can just as well as anybody else be racists, fascists and jesus-freaks , no?

Facts are that the people who voted for Bush voted for a guy who who started a war to further his political agenda, a guy who supports religious fanaticism, state terrorism, people who boil other people to death, international lawlessness etc. ad nauseam.

Please tell me what exactly are those "moral values" Bush supporters refer to?

I think the problem with democrats is who they took into their camp.
Homosexuals, Abortionists, Atheists, Communists. This was John Kerry's base. These people were knocking on my door trying to get me to vote for John Kerry.
The message was clear. If you are anti everything that America was founded on then John Kerry is your man. it is exactly because of grgr and others like him that the Democratic party received such a resounding defeat. They say , politics makes for strange bedfellows. Well all the strange people are on one side. So it is easy now to lump up all the group together and say the Democratic party is the party of the morally bankrupt.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Luck JF
I think the problem with democrats is who they took into their camp.
Homosexuals, Abortionists, Atheists, Communists. This was John Kerry's base. These people were knocking on my door trying to get me to vote for John Kerry.
The message was clear. If you are anti everything that America was founded on then John Kerry is your man. it is exactly because of grgr and others like him that the Democratic party received such a resounding defeat. They say , politics makes for strange bedfellows. Well all the strange people are on one side. So it is easy now to lump up all the group together and say the Democratic party is the party of the morally bankrupt.

Wow I'm surprised that there are ignorant assholes like you up in New Hampshire. I figured most of you were concentrated in Survivalist Compounds in Rural Alabama and Idaho.

 

[Luck JF]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Luck JF
I think the problem with democrats is who they took into their camp.
Homosexuals, Abortionists, Atheists, Communists. This was John Kerry's base. These people were knocking on my door trying to get me to vote for John Kerry.
The message was clear. If you are anti everything that America was founded on then John Kerry is your man. it is exactly because of grgr and others like him that the Democratic party received such a resounding defeat. They say , politics makes for strange bedfellows. Well all the strange people are on one side. So it is easy now to lump up all the group together and say the Democratic party is the party of the morally bankrupt.

Wow I'm surprised that there are ignorant assholes like you up in New Hampshire. I figured most of you were concentrated in Survivalist Compounds in Rural Alabama and Idaho.

nice

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Luck JF

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Luck JF
I think the problem with democrats is who they took into their camp.
Homosexuals, Abortionists, Atheists, Communists. This was John Kerry's base. These people were knocking on my door trying to get me to vote for John Kerry.
The message was clear. If you are anti everything that America was founded on then John Kerry is your man. it is exactly because of grgr and others like him that the Democratic party received such a resounding defeat. They say , politics makes for strange bedfellows. Well all the strange people are on one side. So it is easy now to lump up all the group together and say the Democratic party is the party of the morally bankrupt.

Wow I'm surprised that there are ignorant assholes like you up in New Hampshire. I figured most of you were concentrated in Survivalist Compounds in Rural Alabama and Idaho.

nice

No disheartening. One would have thought the educational system in New Hampshire would have done a better job. Where you home schooled or go to a Religious school by chance?