Bill O'Reilly its time for gun control

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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
It is a weird world where the government can't ban some guns for being too dangerous but it can ban JARTS.


Sounds like those who authored the Constitution and Bill of Rights knew certain rights would need to be protected from the government in the future...
 

Artdeco

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,682
1
0
The FBI is most certainly not aware of every gun sale that happens or anything even remotely close to it. Background checks are only done on sales that come from dealers; private sales are conducted with no checks whatsoever. After Sandy Hook there was a push for universal background checks that had overwhelming public support but the NRA killed it.

Actually, the private sale background check has been addressed by several states, your state regulates private sales and the sale of ammunition, further the state has some of the toughest gun bans in the US, so I guess the question is if you're ignorant of your own states laws or you're being purposely obtuse.
 
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Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
And, my grandchildren will likely die of old age before semi-automatic rifles and handguns are banned in this country. I think that it would take a new Constitutional Amendment, since these are the most common guns in America.

You're probably right about your grandchildren, but it won't take any changes to the Constitution. What will happen is that first semi-automatic weapon sales will be banned. Then some time after that, perhaps quite a long time, their possession will be outlawed. Meanwhile, people will continue to enjoy hunting, and will still keep pistols in their homes to protect them from bad guys.
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
This repeated rhetoric just encourages people to say we need to ban WAY MORE guns.

Or is that the goal?

What has really amazed me of late is the speed at which attitudes toward guns are changing in this country among the general public. And I'm pretty certain it has far less to do with the mass murders being committed than it does with the rhetoric from the gun nerds who have been convinced that the government wants to take their guns.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Actually, the private sale background check has been addressed by several states, your state regulates private sales and the sale of ammunition, further the state has some of the toughest gun bans in the US, so I guess the question is if you're ignorant of your own states laws or you're being purposely obtuse.

Any non-federal legislation really means anyone just needs to go to another state to avoid restrictions, which is not much of an impedance.

So check your angles, because you're not looking very acute yourself.
 

Artdeco

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,682
1
0
Any non-federal legislation really means anyone just needs to go to another state to avoid restrictions, which is not much of an impedance.

So check your angles, because you're not looking very acute yourself.

That's illegal too, seems you don't know your laws very well either, huh?
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
And, my grandchildren will likely die of old age before semi-automatic rifles and handguns are banned in this country. I think that it would take a new Constitutional Amendment, since these are the most common guns in America.

All it would *require* is a grammatically correct reading of the 2nd amendment that it's not an individual right, and I hear that a shift in the court is likely.

Most court decision requires a lot less straightforward interpretations.

Name one country with similar demographics to the United States that has a gun ban that's successful reduced the rate of violent crime.

By demographics you mean black people?
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
You're probably right about your grandchildren, but it won't take any changes to the Constitution. What will happen is that first semi-automatic weapon sales will be banned. Then some time after that, perhaps quite a long time, their possession will be outlawed. Meanwhile, people will continue to enjoy hunting, and will still keep pistols in their homes to protect them from bad guys.


Once on the slippery slope, history has repeatedly shown it to go downhill very very fast.



In 1988 England had this :

The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988
In the aftermath of the Hungerford massacre, Parliament passed the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988.[73] This confined semi-automatic and pump-action centre-fire rifles, military weapons firing explosive ammunition, short shotguns that had magazines, and both elevated pump-action and self-loading rifles to the Prohibited category.[74] Registration and secure storage of shotguns held on Shotgun Certificates became required, and shotguns with more than a 2+1 capacity came to need a Firearm Certificate.


9 years later, in 1997, handguns were banned.

By 2006 you had this :

 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Once on the slippery slope, history has repeatedly shown it to go downhill very very fast.



In 1988 England had this :




9 years later, in 1997, handguns were banned.

By 2006 you had this :

http://www.lossofprivacy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/uk-knife-laws.jpg

You need to explain yourself better.

Gun control laws turned into knife control laws. The knife control laws apparently mirror our treatment of other things we prefer kids not mess with. Adult citizens continue to do as they please.

But I assume no benefit is worth the cost of gun rights.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
All it would *require* is a grammatically correct reading of the 2nd amendment that it's not an individual right, and I hear that a shift in the court is likely.

Most court decision requires a lot less straightforward interpretations.



By demographics you mean black people?
There is no grammatically correct reading that leads to disarming citizens. It is so contrary to any founding father writing, teaching, or leadership as to be treasonous to even consider. There isn't a single framer that even wrote that civilians should be disarmed. None.

Therefore any "grammatically correct" interpretation of the constitution s factually and logically incorrect.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
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There is no grammatically correct reading that leads to disarming citizens. It is so contrary to any founding father writing, teaching, or leadership as to be treasonous to even consider. There isn't a single framer that even wrote that civilians should be disarmed. None.

Therefore any "grammatically correct" interpretation of the constitution s factually and logically incorrect.

It's matter of straightforward reading comprehension that the 2A was written as a collective/militia right. It would've been simple enough to write it as an individual right instead if that's what they meant.

It sounds rather treasonous to imply that the founders' english composition skills were so shitty that they can't even write a simple sentence correctly.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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I'll take anyone's explanation as to who the hell starts a sentence clearly referencing the military as subject, then when the predicate comes around means not the military.

Scalia literally concocts new english/legal grammar to dance around this, but never explains how it makes any sense in literally the same sentence.

The individual right interpretation necessarily implies the writers were imbeciles who couldn't follow the first rule of sentence construction.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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It's matter of straightforward reading comprehension that the 2A was written as a collective/militia right. It would've been simple enough to write it as an individual right instead if that's what they meant.

It sounds rather treasonous to imply that the founders' english composition skills were so shitty that they can't even write a simple sentence correctly.

No, your "straightforward" reading is lacking in all historical context, case, law, Federalist writing...etc.

Just like how people toss around "well-regulated" when it is actually "well regulated" and that doesn't mean today what it meant 240 years ago. Then it meant orderly, or in working order, as in self regulated. Unless you think the common usage of well regulated when discussing a garden meant that somebody from the massive central government needs to oversee your turnips. Now it means you need 500 regulators telling you you need to do everything they say, or else.

The wording is quite clear once you read Madison, Monroe, Tench Coxe, Hamilton, Jefferson, Washington...etc.

There isn't a single one that thought there needed to be an ever-present "militia".

Further, the entire point of the Constitution is to limit the government, not the people. Thus, the notion that the "militia" is to place limitations on the people's ability to actually form one using their own arms, is ridiculous. Taken from the position that the Constitution limits the State (and not the people), it means that in order to be able to form a militia, you need to prevent people from being disarmed, which means the State cannot take those arms, which is why the passage is there to begin with. To limit the state's ability to disarm. Otherwise the people could never form militias in a time of need.

This is the logic used in Federalist 28, 29, 46, by Madison, and Tench Coxe, and George Washington.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
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If only there were a way to write a sentence about individual rights without clearly referring to the military as the subject. I'm pretty sure even the poorest educated conservatives were taught how to do that in elementary school.

This situation only shows people will go to any length to rationalize whatever they want to believe. It's basically like interpreting religious text for them.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
If only there were a way to write a sentence about individual rights without clearly referring to the military as the subject. I'm pretty sure even poorly educated conservatives were taught how to do that in elementary school.

If only there was a way to ensure that people understood that forming militias from private citizenry means private citizenry needs to be armed.

But I guess it's too difficult for modern day liberals to understand what it means to not depend on the centralized government to provide everything they need. Men were built differently then, or at least their minds were. At least they weren't confused which bathroom they needed to use. That's the #1 problem facing millennials.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
If only there was a way to ensure that people understood that forming militias from private citizenry means private citizenry needs to be armed.

The "Militia" is the military. In english, a capitalized singular word is a proper noun. What that means is taught in elementary school, too.

But I guess it's too difficult for modern day liberals to understand what it means to not depend on the centralized government to provide everything they need. Men were built differently then, or at least their minds were. At least they weren't confused which bathroom they needed to use. That's the #1 problem facing millennials.

As mentioned elsewhere, the vast majority of government spending is on the currently rather conservative institutions of the military/elderly, and federal tax money generally flow from blue to red areas.

In elementary school terms, that means your crowd depend on the centralized government to take money from liberals to give to themselves, then they mouth off about the liberals. Even children are able to correctly judge the character of people like that.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The "Militia" is the military. In english, a capitalized singular word is a proper noun. What that means is taught in elementary school, too.



As mentioned elsewhere, the vast majority of government spending is on the currently rather conservative institutions of the military/elderly, and federal tax money generally flow from blue to red areas.

In elementary school terms, that means your crowd depend on the centralized government to take money from liberals to give to themselves, then they mouth off about the liberals. Even children are able to correctly judge the character of people like that.
Which military were the founding fathers discussing there? A standing military?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The well established kind they fought the revolution with.

And was that intended to be a standing army? Did they warn, at all, about the dangers of a standing army?

and how many founding fathers discussed the need for armed civilians to be able to lend to defense against invasion and insurrection?

Considering about 231k men served in the continental army and another 145k in militias, you can see that militias made up a huge portion of men that served as well as their contribution to asymmetrical warfare and line of communication disruption.
 
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