Bioware, what happened to you?

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

i just tried mass effect 2 the other day via some cloud gaming site. Basically you just download a plugin and you access the game that's on their remote servers. Worked pretty well. Anyway I'm definitely going to try to pick up mass effect 1 and 2 if it goes up during the steam xmas sale.

 

[Bateluer]

A: You know you will buy it.
B: You know you will be an Asari.

A. No, I won't.
B. I'm sure 95% of people would play as Asari.

While I'm not a fan of shooters, they're all a race to the bottom now, I'd had no problem with Bioware/EA licensing it out to another studio. Bioware shouldn't tarnish their reputation with a knock off of what is a shitty game to begin with. Bioware should stick to what they do best.

Also, they should get the capital together to buy out EA's stake and tell them to shove off. Hell, I'd donate to that fund.

 

[darkewaffle]

When you wrote this post did you realize that that is basically what Bioware did and got famous doing?

When you wrote this post did you realize why you used the past tense? It was a different era with a different gaming audience with different expectations.

As time passes the audience for a deep, intricate RPG is shrinking both relatively and probably absolutely. With the explosion of the lightweight gamer audience there's a growing opportunity cost to producing such a title because it holds so little appeal for this new demographic. Further, the core audience of such RPGs is gradually growing smaller on it's own as they get older and have more to do with their lives and less time to devote to such a game, even if they still want to.

Additionally, the amount of development (read: cost) that goes into a 'true' RPG I would think is quite staggering. Dragon Age was released in November 2009, first announced in summer 2004, and presumably in development for months or even years prior to that. So, conservatively, that's at least 5 years worth of manpower, computational power, debugging, all these resources that goes into a game are occupied. Not to mention it requires a lot of resources other games dont; huge amounts of voice acting, story writing, lore writing, extensive combing for more than just bugs; but continuity and balance as well. All for a game that did sell well, but compared to some other high profile titles, it only sold a half or a third as well and they didn't take half a decade to produce.

At some point, as businessmen, risk v reward has to come into play. As much as I trust Bioware to put out good work, I don't trust the consumer to always reward it, especially as the market becomes ever more saturated and the competition for the gamers' wallet is ever more fierce.

I don't think Bioware should abandon the cornerstone of their legacy, their RPGs (I loved Dragon Age and NWN devoutly), but I think it's foolish to ask them to do nothing but RPG after RPG after RPG when it lacks appeal to so much of the market and arguably puts them at risk in the long run.

And there are such things as good action games.

 

[Bateluer]

Additionally, the amount of development (read: cost) that goes into a 'true' RPG I would think is quite staggering. Dragon Age was released in November 2009, first announced in summer 2004, and presumably in development for months or even years prior to that. So, conservatively, that's at least 5 years worth of manpower, computational power, debugging, all these resources that goes into a game are occupied.

DAO didn't spend that long in development. The early work was just concept drawings, brain storming, a few design meetings, not much more. Development didn't really get serious until after Mass Effect 1 was released.

There's a definitely a lot of work that goes into making a great RPG, but I don't believe one needs to spend millions of dollars of top tier voice actors, state of the art graphics engines, etc. Heck, you could take one of the open source engines, even a 2D only one, and develop a fantastic RPG without any voice acting. There's a number of NWN modules that are outstanding.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Lots of amusement in this thread. If you believe that strongly in an RPG in the style of Baldur's Gate, why not start your own development company? According to this thread, you'd have a few dozen customers at the very least (and I'd be one of them, if it looked good).

Bioware doesn't owe you guys anything. If you didn't like the combat in ME2 that much and aren't looking forward to a multiplayer version, don't buy it. If you aren't looking forward to DA2 or ToR, don't buy them either. Bioware has the exact same responsibility to make a 2D RPG that you do.

 

[exar333]

This thread is really sad. This statement sums-up the apologetic argument in support of Bioware making sub-par games "everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't they".

Times may change, but good games do not. Just because 2D is dated doesn't make an amazing game like Super Metroid bad. BG/BG2 were AMAZING games because they had a great story, free-roam adventure, and lots of fun. The tech doesn't matter, the game was GREAT.

If you remember, Blizzard had the infamous "SC Ghost" in dev forever. It wasn't good enough for their name, so they canned it. They have stuck with their bread and butter and have released great games that we associate with Blizzard. How are they doing? No sell-outs on the Blizzard IP side (they do have the WoW cash cow, but who can blame them?).

 

[skace]

When you wrote this post did you realize why you used the past tense? It was a different era with a different gaming audience with different expectations.

Era means little, Bioware wasn't riding on the backs of other RPG makers when they made Baldur's Gate. And they certainly didn't have many clones in that Era. Both RPG and FPS existed then and they exist now. Both RPG and FPS genre had better games then than they do now.

As time passes the audience for a deep, intricate RPG is shrinking both relatively and probably absolutely. With the explosion of the lightweight gamer audience there's a growing opportunity cost to producing such a title because it holds so little appeal for this new demographic. Further, the core audience of such RPGs is gradually growing smaller on it's own as they get older and have more to do with their lives and less time to devote to such a game, even if they still want to.

How are you validating what the average gamer wants and whether demand for a serious RPG exists? Do you realize how many MILLIONS of people are playing WoW? An RPG that requires a time investment several orders of magnitude greater than Baldur's Gate 2? If anything, the average gamer wants a good RPG more than they want a good FPS game.

Additionally, the amount of development (read: cost) that goes into a 'true' RPG I would think is quite staggering. Dragon Age was released in November 2009, first announced in summer 2004, and presumably in development for months or even years prior to that. So, conservatively, that's at least 5 years worth of manpower, computational power, debugging, all these resources that goes into a game are occupied. Not to mention it requires a lot of resources other games dont; huge amounts of voice acting, story writing, lore writing, extensive combing for more than just bugs; but continuity and balance as well. All for a game that did sell well, but compared to some other high profile titles, it only sold a half or a third as well and they didn't take half a decade to produce.

As Bateluer said, your numbers are wildly inaccurate here. But more importantly, we only have to look at DAO2's dev cycle to get a real idea of what their continued time constraints are now that the engine is developed. And it is in their best interest to put as many games on that engine as they can before it becomes antiquated.

Besides, the biggest fault in this line of thinking is wildly speculating how easy it may be to create a AAA FPS title. Certainly, if FPS titles were so damned easy, everyone would have an exceptional FPS game and the market would be flooded with great games. However it isn't. It is flooded with shoddy, half ass garbage and few gems in the mix for you to dig out. Given this knowledge, it certainly isn't difficult to believe that Bioware could have a more difficult time creating a decent FPS than they can create a great RPG.

At some point, as businessmen, risk v reward has to come into play. As much as I trust Bioware to put out good work, I don't trust the consumer to always reward it, especially as the market becomes ever more saturated and the competition for the gamers' wallet is ever more fierce.

I already talked to this. Guess where all the market saturation is? FPS games. So if you have a point here, Bioware is running head first into what they shouldn't be doing.

I don't think Bioware should abandon the cornerstone of their legacy, their RPGs (I loved Dragon Age and NWN devoutly), but I think it's foolish to ask them to do nothing but RPG after RPG after RPG when it lacks appeal to so much of the market and arguably puts them at risk in the long run.

I disagree that it "puts them at risk", more realistically they have probably inherited labor from another studio, that is now under their control. And they are simply taking a risk on something unique with this studio. I'm all for them taking a risk and doing something outside of their safety net, however it is unfortunate that it may end up being so close to someone elses safety net instead of paving completely new territory which really has the chance to attract gamers.

And there are such things as good action games.

Yea, Devil May Cry.

 

[exar333]

ITT: Nerds upset because times change.

You are no longer the target market, get used to it.

If Bioware did nothing but release super in-depth, long, engaging RPGs all day, there probably wouldn't be much of a Bioware to speak of because those games are so resource intensive to develop, write, and test and only have niche appeal. And even then all they'd get is flak from nerds because it's an RPG that isnt Baldurs Gate so they declare that it obviously a dumbed down, consolized, throwaway that simply can't be saved after after a single press release.

Bioware is simply doing what's natural, looking for ways to bring their franchises to new audiences and not bothering to pander to people who can't (eg: refuse to be) pleased.

If Bioware didn't make good, engaging RPGs they would not exist at all right now. Period. How does that sound? Moving away from your core business values is much more than not a disaster. There is always room for experimentation, but to eschew your core business is silly.

 

[irishScott]

So long as it doesn't end up replacing/taking away quality from Mass Effect 3 or some bullshit, they can do whatever the hell they want. Hell they might even make it good.

 

[darkewaffle]

This thread is really sad. This statement sums-up the apologetic argument in support of Bioware making sub-par games "everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't they".

Times may change, but good games do not. Just because 2D is dated doesn't make an amazing game like Super Metroid bad. BG/BG2 were AMAZING games because they had a great story, free-roam adventure, and lots of fun. The tech doesn't matter, the game was GREAT.

So tech doesn't matter... but genre does?

Games may change, but Bioware is still a good developer. Just because there's lots of terrible games out there doesn't make an entire style bad. *Name your game of choice here* was successful because it had intense action, an exciting tempo, and easy to pick up controls that still allowed for a personal playstyle.

On one hand you demonize Bioware simply for exploring a game that isn't an RPG, yet on the other hand you insist that you define games by their quality first and foremost. They're not really consistent ideas.

Have there been bad crossovers? Of course. Have there been good crossovers? Of course. It's just silly to pigeonhole a game, and hell an entire company, so quickly with reasons like "Their sequels are different than the originals" and "Dragon Age wasn't hardcore enough".

 

[Nintendesert]

People are so quick to judge products that aren't even released yet. The level of snobbishness from the RPG community is probably part of the reason they want to branch out and expand into other genres.

Why bother developing for a bunch of snobs that will bash whatever you develop because it doesn't fit what they envision for their perfect RPG?

I'll wait until this and DA2 gets released before I judge either to be sucky or a failure. You all haven't even seen the actual concept from the developers but already got your noses so far up into the sky we can see gray.

 

[roguerower]

I see it as a failure on EAs part to properly manage all of the developers they oversee. Rather than twisting the handle and putting Bioware under increasing pressure, they should allow the dev team to continue to make good games which they became famous for. If they put out an RPG that combine both graphics and gameplay they can possibly open up their demographic and increase their earning potential down the line.

Once again it comes down to EA not being able to properly manage their assets. Big eye opener there.

 

[Dumac]

Lots of amusement in this thread. If you believe that strongly in an RPG in the style of Baldur's Gate, why not start your own development company? According to this thread, you'd have a few dozen customers at the very least (and I'd be one of them, if it looked good).

Bioware doesn't owe you guys anything. If you didn't like the combat in ME2 that much and aren't looking forward to a multiplayer version, don't buy it. If you aren't looking forward to DA2 or ToR, don't buy them either. Bioware has the exact same responsibility to make a 2D RPG that you do.

God you are dense.

I WON'T buy them. However, that still doesn't make me any less upset that they aren't producing games that I will enjoy. That is less potential fun for me in the future.

I used to rely on Bioware for great RPG fun. Everything they made I enjoyed. Now it looks like they are turning to shit and making the same games everyone else is making.

It would be like if your favorite band stopped playing music you like and switch to Top40 shit. Sure, they don't owe anything to you, but it still sucks as and is disappointing.

Why not start your own development company? You are a joke. I don't know if you even read what you type.

 

[darkewaffle]

Era means little, Bioware wasn't riding on the backs of other RPG makers when they made Baldur's Gate. And they certainly didn't have many clones in that Era. Both RPG and FPS existed then and they exist now. Both RPG and FPS genre had better games then than they do now.

Era matters a great deal. A game that was successful 10 years ago wouldn't be a success by default today, and vice versa. What people want from a game changes with time, regardless of technology, and if it didn't we'd still just be playing 3d pong and pacman. The audience you sell a game to today is not the same audience you sold a game to a decade ago.

How are you validating what the average gamer wants and whether demand for a serious RPG exists? Do you realize how many MILLIONS of people are playing WoW? An RPG that requires a time investment several orders of magnitude greater than Baldur's Gate 2? If anything, the average gamer wants a good RPG more than they want a good FPS game.

WoW and serious RPG? You must be joking. WoW thrives on instant gratification and making everything as accessible as possible. There's hardly any consistent story beyond whatever the current patch's theme is, character building is defined entirely by your one dimensional talent tree and your gear, and the rules of the world are bent arbitrarily and changed regularly to accomodate the game itself. WoW isn't much of an RPG, let alone a good one.

As Bateluer said, your numbers are wildly inaccurate here. But more importantly, we only have to look at DAO2's dev cycle to get a real idea of what their continued time constraints are now that the engine is developed. And it is in their best interest to put as many games on that engine as they can before it becomes antiquated.

Wildly inaccurate? Because some guy on a forum said so? Nobody here knows anything more than anyone else. The data is when DAO was announced and when it was released, so I'm going to take that to mean it was in development at least most of that period. And DA2's quick release really just supports that a more involved RPG takes a lot of resources; for better or worse it's pretty well established that DA2 is going to be reorienting the gameplay to have more action, less dialog, and a more shallow moral (choice) system. As such, it can be released much more quickly. And yes, of course some of the time cut down is due to it no longer being an untested property and it having a completed engine.

Besides, the biggest fault in this line of thinking is wildly speculating how easy it may be to create a AAA FPS title. Certainly, if FPS titles were so damned easy, everyone would have an exceptional FPS game and the market would be flooded with great games. However it isn't. It is flooded with shoddy, half ass garbage and few gems in the mix for you to dig out. Given this knowledge, it certainly isn't difficult to believe that Bioware could have a more difficult time creating a decent FPS than they can create a great RPG.

I didn't really say anything in this regard. I simply said that if you consider Dragon Age a AAA RPG it didn't sell nearly as well as AAA titles in other genres, largely by virtue of it being an RPG. And seeing that, there's going to a real incentive to look at building more than just RPGs.

I already talked to this. Guess where all the market saturation is? FPS games. So if you have a point here, Bioware is running head first into what they shouldn't be doing.

You say that as though there's a shortage of knockoff games in any genre. The point is that the video game market on the whole is saturated, there's enough bad/mediocre titles that it can be hard to make an impression. There's enough good titles that competition is almost more between franchises/games than genres themselves (Should I get the new Mass Effect or the new God of War? etc) and I think this is a problem because I think it's much easier for an RPGer to pick up an action game than vice versa.

I disagree that it "puts them at risk", more realistically they have probably inherited labor from another studio, that is now under their control. And they are simply taking a risk on something unique with this studio. I'm all for them taking a risk and doing something outside of their safety net, however it is unfortunate that it may end up being so close to someone elses safety net instead of paving completely new territory which really has the chance to attract gamers.

Well again it's all speculation. In investing, it's usually a poor decision to put all your eggs in one basket. I just think that it's good for Bioware as a company to continue to explore more than just RPGs, because I think the aggregate demand for a 'traditional' Bioware-like RPG is isn't what it used to be as the gaming market changes.

 

[shortylickens]

ITT: Nerds upset because times change.

You are no longer the target market, get used to it.

Gee thats funny cuz I coulda sworn that point was made 3 or 4 times already.


Good thing we have you here to set us straight.

 

[s44]

Haters gonna hate. Bioware is currently deep into their deepest, most intricate RPG ever. And it's going to make megabucks.

As for the ME spinoff, this is "Bioware" Montreal. Translation: a new group related mostly in name to the Edmonton mothership.

(But yeah, DA2, ugh.)

 

[JoshGuru7]

God you are dense.

God forbid I ever assume that people who disagree with me don't comprehend my position.

Sure, they don't owe anything to you, but it still sucks as and is disappointing.

My problem isn't with you being disappointed. Why shouldn't you be? Posters who think that Bioware does owe them something are the ones I take issue with, especially when they are convinced they have a better business plan than Bioware does to boot.

You might think my reply of "start your own company" sounds snarky, but any case in which you think you have better information is a profit opportunity. The vehemence with which you feel that a Baldur's Gate-era RPG would succeed in 2010 should match your enthusiasm for investing in a company developing one. Scale this up to the entire PC gaming community and wouldn't you have at least one company producing those titles if there was a market for it? It's not like there is a scarcity of kids with programming degrees who would like to work in gaming development.

 

[Bateluer]

You might think my reply of "start your own company" sounds snarky, but any case in which you think you have better information is a profit opportunity. The vehemence with which you feel that a Baldur's Gate-era RPG would succeed in 2010 should match your enthusiasm for investing in a company developing one. Scale this up to the entire PC gaming community and wouldn't you have at least one company producing those titles if there was a market for it? It's not like there is a scarcity of kids with programming degrees who would like to work in gaming development.

So you feel that a game with great characters and writing, with an engaging, immersive story, offering a hundred hours of gameplay would be a financial failure today? If you were to spend all your funds on voice actors, state of the art engines, and cease support of the game after release, I have no doubt that you'd make a complete financial flop. But, if you were to go with no voice actors, or only minimal voice actors, and devote your resources to polishing your product, your title would be far from a commercial failure.

I've serious considered attempting to put a development team together to create an epic RPG, and if I had any programming ability at all . . .I just don't have the aptitude for it.

 

[AlgaeEater]

Speaking from nerd to nerds, am I the only one in a small circle of devil worshipers who eat the live still beating hearts of children daily... actually prefer and loved the Icewind Dale series more than the Baldur's Gate series?

Anyone else?

 

[Nintendesert]

So you feel that a game with great characters and writing, with an engaging, immersive story, offering a hundred hours of gameplay would be a financial failure today? If you were to spend all your funds on voice actors, state of the art engines, and cease support of the game after release, I have no doubt that you'd make a complete financial flop. But, if you were to go with no voice actors, or only minimal voice actors, and devote your resources to polishing your product, your title would be far from a commercial failure.

I've serious considered attempting to put a development team together to create an epic RPG, and if I had any programming ability at all . . .I just don't have the aptitude for it.

If there is a real market for it then a company somewhere will make it and be successful. BioWare has been moving towards a more cinematic and movie like experience for a while now.

They have a story to tell and like you getting the full cinema experience and interaction with it. It's simply how they are moving as a company with their artistic vision.

I for one don't mind it, but fully support smaller developers that make games that are what I'm looking for. Take the X Beyond the Frontier series, I didn't even play X3 Terran Conflict, but I bought it to simply support them making more products because it was a genre that to me is not supported nearly enough.

If you see a smaller developer put out an RPG or try to put out an RPG like the ones you used to love, I do hope you buy it and get your friends to buy it. It's the only way to really show your support without directly funding or founding your own development studio.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Speaking from nerd to nerds, am I the only one in a small circle of devil worshipers who eat the live still beating hearts of children daily... actually prefer and loved the Icewind Dale series more than the Baldur's Gate series?

Anyone else?

 

[shortylickens]

Speaking from nerd to nerds, am I the only one in a small circle of devil worshipers who eat the live still beating hearts of children daily... actually prefer and loved the Icewind Dale series more than the Baldur's Gate series?

Anyone else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i381VcMpoMQ

 

[KlokWyze]

ITT: Nerds upset because times change.

You are no longer the target market, get used to it.

If Bioware did nothing but release super in-depth, long, engaging RPGs all day, there probably wouldn't be much of a Bioware to speak of because those games are so resource intensive to develop, write, and test and only have niche appeal. And even then all they'd get is flak from nerds because it's an RPG that isnt Baldurs Gate so they declare that it obviously a dumbed down, consolized, throwaway that simply can't be saved after after a single press release.

Bioware is simply doing what's natural, looking for ways to bring their franchises to new audiences and not bothering to pander to people who can't (eg: refuse to be) pleased.

LMAO. QFT.

Times change it's true. TBH I'm pretty damn sick of FPS's and DEFINITELY of Call of Duty. Black Ops is just a blatant cash in. I understand it's a business and you just have to learn how to create a quality, deep game that is user friendly enough for the 'tards.

IMO I think the perfect formula on an rpg tip would be 3rd person action, heavy character customization, leveling, open world type deal, party maybe, maybe not..... we really don't need another fucking sci-fi FPS...... FFS!

 

[JoshGuru7]

So you feel that a game with great characters and writing, with an engaging, immersive story, offering a hundred hours of gameplay would be a financial failure today? If you were to go with no voice actors, or only minimal voice actors, and devote your resources to polishing your product, your title would be far from a commercial failure.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a developer try this and I would support them if the product looked good. The problem is that if there was sufficient demand for a product of this sort then you would probably already see products being created to cater to that demand.

I suppose the exception is that if you are right where all of the developers are wrong, and I'm not dismissing that possibility. There is a lot of money to be made by being right where others are wrong, but the only way to prove it is to act on it.

 

[NYHoustonman]

This thread is really sad. This statement sums-up the apologetic argument in support of Bioware making sub-par games "everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't they".

Times may change, but good games do not. Just because 2D is dated doesn't make an amazing game like Super Metroid bad. BG/BG2 were AMAZING games because they had a great story, free-roam adventure, and lots of fun. The tech doesn't matter, the game was GREAT.

If you remember, Blizzard had the infamous "SC Ghost" in dev forever. It wasn't good enough for their name, so they canned it. They have stuck with their bread and butter and have released great games that we associate with Blizzard. How are they doing? No sell-outs on the Blizzard IP side (they do have the WoW cash cow, but who can blame them?).

That last sentence doesn't fit with the rest of your post. WoW was like nothing Blizzard had done with the Warcraft license (I miss the Warcraft RTS's!), but they did it and it turned a huge profit for them - your stance: "who can blame them." Why, then, can't Bioware do the same?

People are so quick to judge products that aren't even released yet. The level of snobbishness from the RPG community is probably part of the reason they want to branch out and expand into other genres.

Why bother developing for a bunch of snobs that will bash whatever you develop because it doesn't fit what they envision for their perfect RPG?

I'll wait until this and DA2 gets released before I judge either to be sucky or a failure. You all haven't even seen the actual concept from the developers but already got your noses so far up into the sky we can see gray.

QFT (or, at least, I agree with you). See the Fallout community as an example. People are expecting some kind of 'devotion' from Bioware, but aren't giving the devs the same courtesy - the second they do something perceived as being counter to deep RPG's, their 'fans' jump on them. I haven't played a Bioware game yet that I haven't loved, Mass Effect 2 is among the greatest games ever made, Dragon Age 2 will be a day one purchase for me, etc.