Bitcoin is on fire again

[AnonymouseUser]

Margin is dangerous in a bear market! Take a look at the following chart:

In that chart I see an avalanche of stop orders creating market sell orders that trigger margin calls creating more market sell orders, etc, etc. Volume was enormous compared to normal, and there just wasn't enough liquidity @ Bitfinex for LTC. Some people lost a fortune today, and some made a fortune today. Be careful!

That being said, it's possible that the markets could make another run to resistance. Gox could make a run back to ~$800, and LTC could see ~$25.50, but if they do rally they will sell off again. Breakout is $595.40, and $15.51, respectively.

This is a dangerous market, so remember: Bulls make money, Bears make money, and Pigs get slaughtered!

 

[halik]

Err aren't bitcoins fully funded? That is, there should be no margin-driven liquidation, because your position is entirely yours. Also looking at the gox api, they don't do have stop orders.

Edit: NM, looks like bitfinex does both.

 

[ultimatebob]

This is a dangerous market, so remember: Bulls make money, Bears make money, and Pigs get slaughtered!

Heh... now you're still starting to sound like me. Or Jim Cramer. Or whoever he stole that line from

 

[ultimatebob]

Okay, that's all well and good for that exchange, but please explain to this idiot the effect of that lost value?

Who eats it?

The value obviously disappeared somewhere, right? Or is bitcoin not a currency? what is it if, at this point, it can somewhat arbitrarily be exchanged at wildly fluctuating values from week to week or even day to day?

In this case, the people who lost money were the ones who paid cash for the Bitpay's coin from the Tesla dealer when they made this transaction. I believe that Bitpay uses Mt Gox as their clearinghouse, but I could be wrong about that.

Those people kinda screwed up by buying Bitcoin when it was near it's highest price. Maybe the price will come back, but I doubt that it will happen any time soon.

Bitpay made their money from the small transaction fees they charge, and the Tesla money got paid cash in full.

 

[Doppel]

It's been fun watching all these multiple crashes of bitcoin followed by the desperate attempts by the bitcoin faithful to still argue it has a future as a currency. Keep it up

 

[Chiropteran]

Still seeing zero reason why I'd want to use it as a consumer. So now when a store rips you off, you have no recourse?

That "recourse" you are talking about has costs associated with it. Credit card companies charge all kinds of merchant fees to cover the occasional charge-back. Paypal also charges fees, and is infamous for just holding your money and/or siding with the scammer in cases where you don't have every possible detail covered.

However, it's not correct to say you have no recourse. It's still better than paying cash, as there is rock-solid proof of payment permanently saved in the block chain. It's also easily possible to use bitcoin in an escrow system, in which you don't release the bitcoin until you receive the product you purchased.

Also, please try to follow the thread and use your brain. We were talking about the purchase of a $100k car. The sad truth is automobile purchasers have little recourse as it is. Once you drive it off the lot it is yours, there is no 30 day return period, generally. You can't buy a car on a credit card and just return it if you don't like it. You are pretty much stuck with the car you buy, regardless of your method of payment, so the idea that bitcoin is somehow worse because of this is not really true, it's just the same as every other viable form of car payment.

Overall, bitcoin is easier to use than cash, with nearly 0 fees. It's much safer than cash, and much cheaper than credit or paypal. It has advantages in every situation. Most of the time, if you are purchasing from a reputable source, the 3-5% savings in transaction fees is passed along to you, that makes using bitcoin worthwhile enough already. That is why you use bitcoin.

Now if some guy in Russia is offering you an amazing deal on some item and you send him bitcoin first, without using an escrow, you might get scammed. However, this is no different than sending a bag of cash to some random stranger. If you are smart, bitcoin works great.

 

[Chiropteran]

It's been fun watching all these multiple crashes of bitcoin followed by the desperate attempts by the bitcoin faithful to still argue it has a future as a currency. Keep it up

Last time it went from $30 to $150, what a terrible crash, I was sad for weeks.

Looks like this time it is crashing from $200 down to $700. I'm in tears right now, my savings have increased in value by over 300%, what a horrible crash.

I'm pretty sure doppel is actually just a big bitcoin investor trooling us at this point. He obviously pays a lot of attention to the rise and drops in price, he probably has a few million dollars worth of bitcoin since the last thread when he was ridiculing bitcoin for dropping from $30 down to $150.

edit:

Relevant imgur.

 

[PokerGuy]

It's been fun watching all these multiple crashes of bitcoin followed by the desperate attempts by the bitcoin faithful to still argue it has a future as a currency. Keep it up

I'm certainly not part of any "bitcoin faithful" , but regardless of "multiple crashes" bitcoin has skyrocketed in value.

At this point I just don't see the need or use for bitcoins for the average person (including me), but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that many around the world will start viewing it as a way to safeguard the value of their money when their politicians / governments screw things up and their own currency becomes worthless.

There is definitely something appealing about a currency where governments can't just willy nilly print more money when they feel like it. There are many pitfalls too of course....

 

[KB]

but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that many around the world will start viewing it as a way to safeguard the value of their money when their politicians / governments screw things up and their own currency becomes worthless.

There is definitely something appealing about a currency where governments can't just willy nilly print more money when they feel like it. There are many pitfalls too of course....

I would never see a cryptocurrency as a safeguard for anything. Finding out that your backups failed and your family photots ar lost is bad, but finding out your backups failed and your life savings is gone is far worse. Anyone who is worried about their government printing money should invest in other currencies from countries that are fiscally responsible like the Swiss Franc or the Norweigen Krone. Or they should invest in gold or stocks that pay dividends in foriegn currency.

 

[AnonymouseUser]

LTC is lagging, so I'm revising my target to $22.50. Too much sell pressure.

Heh... now you're still starting to sound like me. Or Jim Cramer. Or whoever he stole that line from

It's so true, though...

 

[Crusty]

Err aren't bitcoins fully funded? That is, there should be no margin-driven liquidation, because your position is entirely yours. Also looking at the gox api, they don't do have stop orders.

Edit: NM, looks like bitfinex does both.

Just cause the API doesn't explicitly support it doesn't mean you can't execute triggered stop-loss orders....

 

[Spungo]

Of course the amount of paper gold exceeds the actual amount of underlying. Derivatives 101.

aka price manipulation. The price of something goes down when people think it's 60x more abundant than it really is. Gasoline would cost $1 per gallon if oil was everywhere in seemingly unlimited quantities. I point the finger at China and Germany because China is buying lots of gold right now and Germany is waiting for us to buy back the 300 tons of gold that we stole from them. We said we would give their gold back in about 7 years.

 

[halik]

aka price manipulation. The price of something goes down when people think it's 60x more abundant than it really is. Gasoline would cost $1 per gallon if oil was everywhere in seemingly unlimited quantities. I point the finger at China and Germany because China is buying lots of gold right now and Germany is waiting for us to buy back the 300 tons of gold that we stole from them. We said we would give their gold back in about 7 years.

No, when you buy/sell a derivative on the underlying the whole point of doing so is to get the exposure w/o moving the underlying price - that's the main reason people do it.

If I want to buy gold, I can either pay someone premium, plus shipping + insurance + ... to get a brick of gold, or I can find someone that wants to be short gold and enter into a contract.

Conversely, if I want to short gold, I can either find someone that owns it and pay him large premium to borrow it + shipping + insurance, or I can find someone that wants to go long and enter a contract.

Initiating a derivative position has no impact on price; it's a contract between two parties.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

While I shall keep my opinions on coins to myself, you have to find this funny.
http://www.dailytech.com/Dogecoins+and+Its+IBM+Developer+Ride+Meme+to+130M+Fortune/article33960.htm

 

[goog40]

That "recourse" you are talking about has costs associated with it. Credit card companies charge all kinds of merchant fees to cover the occasional charge-back. Paypal also charges fees, and is infamous for just holding your money and/or siding with the scammer in cases where you don't have every possible detail covered.

However, it's not correct to say you have no recourse. It's still better than paying cash, as there is rock-solid proof of payment permanently saved in the block chain. It's also easily possible to use bitcoin in an escrow system, in which you don't release the bitcoin until you receive the product you purchased.

Also, please try to follow the thread and use your brain. We were talking about the purchase of a $100k car. The sad truth is automobile purchasers have little recourse as it is. Once you drive it off the lot it is yours, there is no 30 day return period, generally. You can't buy a car on a credit card and just return it if you don't like it. You are pretty much stuck with the car you buy, regardless of your method of payment, so the idea that bitcoin is somehow worse because of this is not really true, it's just the same as every other viable form of car payment.

Overall, bitcoin is easier to use than cash, with nearly 0 fees. It's much safer than cash, and much cheaper than credit or paypal. It has advantages in every situation. Most of the time, if you are purchasing from a reputable source, the 3-5% savings in transaction fees is passed along to you, that makes using bitcoin worthwhile enough already. That is why you use bitcoin.

Now if some guy in Russia is offering you an amazing deal on some item and you send him bitcoin first, without using an escrow, you might get scammed. However, this is no different than sending a bag of cash to some random stranger. If you are smart, bitcoin works great.

You can't complain about the 3% merchant fees on credit card charges when BTC routinely fluctuates more than that on an hourly basis. Credit cards also offer more benefits beyond the ability to file chargebacks. Someone stole your card and charged a few grand? $0 liability. Plus cash back/points, free extended warranties, free theft insurance and auto insurance on rental cars, etc.

If you're talking about buying a car, there's this amazing technology called writing a check which also somehow manages to have 0% transaction fees. It also has the benefit that the cost of the car won't magically go up significantly on your drive to the dealership as is entirely possible if you're paying with BTC.

 

[sdifox]

965.3 again

 

[halik]

Hah 600 or 300 bucks, depending on where you look...

 

[bignateyk]

Hah 600 or 300 bucks, depending on where you look...

Can I buy a bitcoin at $300 on one exchange and sell it for $600 on another one?

 

[Meghan54]

He's probably referring to Mt. Gox and BitStamp

 

[KidNiki1]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-dark-web-market-place-Silk-Road-hacked.html

 

[PottedMeat]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-dark-web-market-place-Silk-Road-hacked.html

hacker goes by 'omar' :awe:

Marlo Stanfield: That's my money.
Omar: Man, money ain't got no owners, only spenders

 

[KB]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-dark-web-market-place-Silk-Road-hacked.html

Many believe it was an inside job and if it was I am not surprised. Theives and drug dealers aren't exactly an honest bunch.

 

[Crusty]

Many believe it was an inside job and if it was I am not surprised. Theives and drug dealers aren't exactly an honest bunch.

It totally was. The 'flaw' they are citing in the protocol doesn't allow for people to steal any coins. Just makes a big accounting mess if your software doesn't do the right thing.

It's widely believed that they are using the 'transaction malleability' as a scapegoat for running off with everyone's BTC...

 

[AnonymouseUser]

Hah 600 or 300 bucks, depending on where you look...

Not surprised in the least. Still has a little more to go before Wall Street moves in:

Interesting:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/secondmarket-ceo-wall-street-put-203000747.html

"We're three to six months away from Wall Street dollars moving into Bitcoin in a big way," he says.

They are waiting for sub-$500 before loading up.

Can I buy a bitcoin at $300 on one exchange and sell it for $600 on another one?

I'm sure you can get funds into MtGox, but I highly doubt you'll get anything back out at this point, so the answer is "no".

 

[ultimatebob]

Wow... Bitcoin is trading on MtGox for $120 now. Odds are that if anyone bought it, they wouldn't be able to get it out of there for months. If ever.

I always knew that exchange sucked. I'm glad that I never put any of my Bitcoin on there.