Black holes

[SinNisTeR]

I was just watching some documentary thing on Steven Hawking and how he was saying that information is lost as it gets consumed by black holes. It was then later disproved by the scientific community and he then later came back to say he was wrong but he stated that since there are infinite parallel universes, that the loss of information only happens where in the universes that have the black holes and not in those that don't; so they cancel eachother out.
I think that the universe can be explained in a more simplistic form than parallel universes... I want your guy's take on this theory I have about black holes and their relationship to the big bang/big crunch. I don't think information is lost as it is consumed by black holes. I think items get ionized and broken down to the components that they orininally came from, neutrons, electrons, protons, etc. I think that as black holes reach a point of equilibrium and they have nothing else to consume, the amount of matter that is compacted and ionized wants to expand and it forms a "mini" bang. This then forms a large explosion similar to the initial big bang. This large plume of gas is then formed back into the components that once was consumed by the black hole. The atoms clump, etc, and form dust which then form stars. This then causes the cycle to happen again.
I hope I make sense here, at least it makes sense in my mind.. is this feasable? Have you heard of anything like it before, if so, let me know where so I can read it!

 

[RESmonkey]

Hmm...

I did a some gifted project related to this last year. Blackholes emit Hawking radiation. When the blackhole (or, not even when) has nothing to 'consume,' it'll just 'consume' itself. That is why mini-blackholes don't exist for long periods of time. They (I think exponentially) die.

 

[silverpig]

monkey's on the right track. When there's nothing around a black hole it will evaporate. Actually, this process happens even when the black hole absorbs matter as well.

 

[SinNisTeR]

So what happens with all that they consumed? It just dissappears?

 

[RESmonkey]

...I recall something like that. The stuff that goes in (I don't remember much):

1. Is emitted as radiation itself.
2. Goes into some other dimension/universe? Out a white hole? Poo?

 

[f95toli]

Remember that energy is basically just matter (E=mc^2). Hence, as the holes emitt Hawking radiation they also lose mass, until eventually nothing remains.

 

[Nathelion]

That process is also proportional, as mentioned, to the black hole's mass, so small black holes die really quickly while large ones have bizarre lifespans.

 

[Sc4freak]

Originally posted by: SinNisTeR
So what happens with all that they consumed? It just dissappears?

Yep. Without the addition of any new mass, after a while the black hole will simply evaporate.

 

[Sahakiel]

Suppose you create a proton. You gather the necessary energy, coalesce it into a proton, and voila, you have a new particle. Suppose you send this proton out into the vast depths of space. Abayo, you say, and fire your particle accelerator.
10 years later, your proton returns to you. Oi, you say, long time no see. How was your trip? So, you sit down with your proton have a nice long chat over a cup of coffee about all the strange happenings it saw on its trip.
Now, the most important question isn't "how are you talking to a proton?" or "what kind of weed did you just smoke?" but rather, "how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another. For all we know, all protons could be the same particle that simply exists in different times. If you tag the proton before sending it, all you know is a proton with the same tag information came back. You can't tell if it's been cloned. Even if you send along a video camera that sent back information throughout those 10 years, you don't know for sure that somebody didn't just copy your entire setup en route, switch the feeds, then conduct illicit [censored] to the original while the copy meandered home. Well, that might be going too far.
The same problem arises with black holes. Because all the matter that gets consumed is broken down, and pretty much the only output is radiation out the black hole's buttocks (I believe that's the case) then how do you know that last burst of radiation was your Sunday brunch from thirty odd years ago? You don't, and since the black hole simply evaporates in this manner leaving nothing else behind, you will never know. It's like sifting through the feces of a strange animal that only craps elementary particles. You'll never figure out what the animal ate unless you observe it eating. That is how information is lost.
At least, that's how I look at it.

 

[RESmonkey]

Sahakiel, where did you learn about (or think of it yourself?):

but rather, "how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another. For all we know, all protons could be the same particle that simply exists in different times.

That is...uh...wow. Huh...

...er...Thanks. Gave me something to think about...

 

[grant2]

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Suppose you create a proton. ....

awesome post!

 

[QuantumPion]

A black hole is not a vacuum pump going around sucking things up. It is just a collapsed star that is so dense that it warps space around it so that nothing that falls in can get back out. If there was nothing around a black hole it would just sit there doing nothing.

 

[LintMan]

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
"how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another.

Yeah, I had this problem all the time. My brother kept on taking my protons an claiming they were his since we couldn't tell them apart. That's why I scratch my name on all my protons now.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
A black hole is not a vacuum pump going around sucking things up. It is just a collapsed star that is so dense that it warps space around it so that nothing that falls in can get back out. If there was nothing around a black hole it would just sit there doing nothing.

Bingo. Just like the penguin on the tellie. It's just sitting there.

Folks get too wrapped up in the mystic of it and start giving it all of these romantic properties. It is just one be freaking big, dense pile of "dirt". It has no desire to consume anything. It just does because stuff got too close. Maybe it could "sublimate" with Bekenstein-Hawking radiation. But, that radiation is a theory and has not been detected AFAIK. Ergo, once a black hole, possibly always a black hole unless other outside forces intervene.

 

[lousydood]

I was pretty sure that microscopic black holes were created in lab. Over on Long Island, Lawrence Liverpool labs? Nice alliteration. Anyhow, the microscopic black holes pose no threat because they evaporate almost immediately. No reason to suppose that macroscopic black holes don't evaporate too.

In time, I could imagine the remaining matter in the universe would coalesce into black holes which would simply evaporate after quadrillions of years, or so. Depending on how that whole collapsing/expanding thing works out.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Suppose you create a proton. You gather the necessary energy, coalesce it into a proton, and voila, you have a new particle. Suppose you send this proton out into the vast depths of space. Abayo, you say, and fire your particle accelerator.
10 years later, your proton returns to you. Oi, you say, long time no see. How was your trip? So, you sit down with your proton have a nice long chat over a cup of coffee about all the strange happenings it saw on its trip.
Now, the most important question isn't "how are you talking to a proton?" or "what kind of weed did you just smoke?" but rather, "how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another. For all we know, all protons could be the same particle that simply exists in different times. If you tag the proton before sending it, all you know is a proton with the same tag information came back. You can't tell if it's been cloned. Even if you send along a video camera that sent back information throughout those 10 years, you don't know for sure that somebody didn't just copy your entire setup en route, switch the feeds, then conduct illicit [censored] to the original while the copy meandered home. Well, that might be going too far.
The same problem arises with black holes. Because all the matter that gets consumed is broken down, and pretty much the only output is radiation out the black hole's buttocks (I believe that's the case) then how do you know that last burst of radiation was your Sunday brunch from thirty odd years ago? You don't, and since the black hole simply evaporates in this manner leaving nothing else behind, you will never know. It's like sifting through the feces of a strange animal that only craps elementary particles. You'll never figure out what the animal ate unless you observe it eating. That is how information is lost.
At least, that's how I look at it.

That was, for alck of a better word....delicious

 

[antillean]

I don't understand this "information" stuff. What the hell is information??

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: lousydood
I was pretty sure that microscopic black holes were created in lab. Over on Long Island, Lawrence Liverpool labs? Nice alliteration. Anyhow, the microscopic black holes pose no threat because they evaporate almost immediately. No reason to suppose that macroscopic black holes don't evaporate too.

In time, I could imagine the remaining matter in the universe would coalesce into black holes which would simply evaporate after quadrillions of years, or so. Depending on how that whole collapsing/expanding thing works out.

It hasn't been done yet. You're right about them evaporating nearly instantly though. LHC will be able to produce them if there are extra dimensions of appropriate size and number.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: antillean
I don't understand this "information" stuff. What the hell is information??

It's what you call 'stuff' before black holes eat it and excrete it as radiation out of their asses...

 

[Nathelion]

"Information" is the state that energy is in. Imagine a particle, let's say a proton to keep with earlier posts of the thread. You can know a number of things about that proton, such as its location, velocity, etc... Now all these properties that can be known are reducible to quantum states, and quantum states are really the "bits" of information theory - the smallest information-carrying units there are. Now a theoretical observer could know (within the limits of heisenberg uncertainty) exactly what these quantum states are, and could possess all the information carryied by that particle. In technical language, you don't even have to bother with the observer, you just say that the particle in itself IS information (or maybe the information is the particle, who knows, whatever). At any rate, information then becomes equivalent to the state in which energy manifests itself. A fundamental theorem in information theory is that information can neither be created nor destroyed - sound familiar, anyone? Interactions between quanta (energy quantum states, such as particles) transforms the involved information according to certain consistent rules (the laws of physics). Essentially, whenever two quanta interact, they are "computing" a logical operation. In essence, the whole universe is one giant superparallell memory/processor system that is computing, well, itself.
Black holes are interesting because they would essentially "destroy" information. Specifically, Stephen Hawking initially believed that Bekenstein-Hawking radiation would not carry the information that had "entered" the black hole but would be entirely independent of it (I've heard that he's changed his mind - confirm, anyone?). Obviously, the information preservation principle would be violated in such a case. Black holes are extremely important to physicists, because in addition to all their other properties, they are one of the few areas where general relativity and quantum theory meet. Reconciling the two is one of the chief objects of unified field theories such as String Theory and Quantum Loop Gravity.

And umm, yeah, if anything I said up there sounds patently wrong, it probably was. I'm still an undergrad, so I have like a decade to go if I wanna really know what I'm taking about.

Edit: spelling and small changes

 

[AmberClad]

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Suppose you create a proton. You gather the necessary energy, coalesce it into a proton, and voila, you have a new particle. Suppose you send this proton out into the vast depths of space. Abayo, you say, and fire your particle accelerator.
10 years later, your proton returns to you. Oi, you say, long time no see. How was your trip? So, you sit down with your proton have a nice long chat over a cup of coffee about all the strange happenings it saw on its trip.
Now, the most important question isn't "how are you talking to a proton?" or "what kind of weed did you just smoke?" but rather, "how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another. For all we know, all protons could be the same particle that simply exists in different times. If you tag the proton before sending it, all you know is a proton with the same tag information came back. You can't tell if it's been cloned. Even if you send along a video camera that sent back information throughout those 10 years, you don't know for sure that somebody didn't just copy your entire setup en route, switch the feeds, then conduct illicit [censored] to the original while the copy meandered home. Well, that might be going too far.
The same problem arises with black holes. Because all the matter that gets consumed is broken down, and pretty much the only output is radiation out the black hole's buttocks (I believe that's the case) then how do you know that last burst of radiation was your Sunday brunch from thirty odd years ago? You don't, and since the black hole simply evaporates in this manner leaving nothing else behind, you will never know. It's like sifting through the feces of a strange animal that only craps elementary particles. You'll never figure out what the animal ate unless you observe it eating. That is how information is lost.
At least, that's how I look at it.

Can we nominate that for Post of the Year :laugh:?

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: AmberClad

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Suppose you create a proton. You gather the necessary energy, coalesce it into a proton, and voila, you have a new particle. Suppose you send this proton out into the vast depths of space. Abayo, you say, and fire your particle accelerator.
10 years later, your proton returns to you. Oi, you say, long time no see. How was your trip? So, you sit down with your proton have a nice long chat over a cup of coffee about all the strange happenings it saw on its trip.
Now, the most important question isn't "how are you talking to a proton?" or "what kind of weed did you just smoke?" but rather, "how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another. For all we know, all protons could be the same particle that simply exists in different times. If you tag the proton before sending it, all you know is a proton with the same tag information came back. You can't tell if it's been cloned. Even if you send along a video camera that sent back information throughout those 10 years, you don't know for sure that somebody didn't just copy your entire setup en route, switch the feeds, then conduct illicit [censored] to the original while the copy meandered home. Well, that might be going too far.
The same problem arises with black holes. Because all the matter that gets consumed is broken down, and pretty much the only output is radiation out the black hole's buttocks (I believe that's the case) then how do you know that last burst of radiation was your Sunday brunch from thirty odd years ago? You don't, and since the black hole simply evaporates in this manner leaving nothing else behind, you will never know. It's like sifting through the feces of a strange animal that only craps elementary particles. You'll never figure out what the animal ate unless you observe it eating. That is how information is lost.
At least, that's how I look at it.

Can we nominate that for Post of the Year :laugh:?

It definitely ranks up there....

 

[AllGamer]

1st i want to say.... "what is this topic doing in this forum" ?

Now lets cut back to the chase

The way i see it, "Black Holes" as already mentioned just sit there Literally.
Now most people think of Black Holes as a bunch of matter spinning into a void of no return, but as some of you have pointed out already, "Black Hole" the name itself is misguided, since the actual "thing" going on is a super dense star that collapsed and sunk into space.... or i'd rather call it subspace. The gravity is so heavy it warps and distort the space around it, forming this void or funnel like shape, that we call "Black Hole"

Think of it like a good piece of wet paper tower, and you have this very heavy magnetized metal marble or ball, you let it sit on top of this suspended wet paper tower, and what happens?

it slowly sink deeper and deeper forming a cone shape, funnel like formation just like the "Black Hole" now imagine if you drip drops of other liquid near the cone shape (matter), the liquid will smear downwards toward the cone shape.

Now enlarge this idea to the size of the universe, we are just a tiny micro speck in that wet tower sheet of paper suspended in space.

Anyways... so back to the "Black Hole" thing, now base on the above perception, IF "Black Holes" works as we understand the force of nature at a cosmic scale, then it is doing precisely that, the "Thing" that created the "Black Hole" is just sitting there, sinking and continues to sink deeper and deeper into the fabric of space, and everything in its path gets swallowed in.

As the matter that gets swallowed in gets added, contained, and compressed, the core (the "thing") of the "Black Hole" gets heavier and heavier, eventually at some point in time it is going to collapse (worse case scenario, your typical paper tower), or it will simply sit there and do nothing else once it has sucked in everything (this is one good piece of paper tower dawny probably )

so for scenario B: the universe ends there as we know it, the "wet" (energy) just dissipate back into space, and the "black hole" cease to exist when it stops sinking. Yet it is possible to Theorize that eventually this "Thing" of super compressed matter will some day just decay and release back all the matter into space. (Imagine the Scenario of a Mud Ball dried over time with eroding winds)

for scenario A: the low quality paper tower will sink and break due the heavy weight of all the matter in the funnel, and it simply explodes and releases all the matter back into space (my version of the Big Bang Theory), and these matters free falls into space (the time when we exist and space expands as we know it), which below has another layer of wet paper tower, which eventually this "thing" that created the black hole, will yet again repeat its cause, and make a new black hole in this new "dimension"

So as you can see in both scenario lost Energy are being recycled in space.

As a believer of multi dimension theory ("each choice you make, creates a new dimension") both of the above scenario A and B are possible.

My theories are based on natural science, physic, and matter / energy behaviour as we understand them under our current knowledge as homosapiens.
If you think about it, we've already proven at the sub-atomic level (micro-universe) many of the atoms / electrons and matter behave the same way, so just apply that to the macro-universe level.

Cheers.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Suppose you create a proton. You gather the necessary energy, coalesce it into a proton, and voila, you have a new particle. Suppose you send this proton out into the vast depths of space. Abayo, you say, and fire your particle accelerator.
10 years later, your proton returns to you. Oi, you say, long time no see. How was your trip? So, you sit down with your proton have a nice long chat over a cup of coffee about all the strange happenings it saw on its trip.
Now, the most important question isn't "how are you talking to a proton?" or "what kind of weed did you just smoke?" but rather, "how do you know it's the same proton?"
The answer is, you don't. There's no way (given what we know) of discerning one proton from another. For all we know, all protons could be the same particle that simply exists in different times. If you tag the proton before sending it, all you know is a proton with the same tag information came back. You can't tell if it's been cloned. Even if you send along a video camera that sent back information throughout those 10 years, you don't know for sure that somebody didn't just copy your entire setup en route, switch the feeds, then conduct illicit [censored] to the original while the copy meandered home. Well, that might be going too far.
The same problem arises with black holes. Because all the matter that gets consumed is broken down, and pretty much the only output is radiation out the black hole's buttocks (I believe that's the case) then how do you know that last burst of radiation was your Sunday brunch from thirty odd years ago? You don't, and since the black hole simply evaporates in this manner leaving nothing else behind, you will never know. It's like sifting through the feces of a strange animal that only craps elementary particles. You'll never figure out what the animal ate unless you observe it eating. That is how information is lost.
At least, that's how I look at it.

Before reading this post I had rewatched Craig Ferguson's piece about not making fun of people that didn't deserve it. That, and this - mesmerizing.

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: Nathelion
Specifically, Stephen Hawking initially believed that Bekenstein-Hawking radiation would not carry the information that had "entered" the black hole but would be entirely independent of it (I've heard that he's changed his mind - confirm, anyone?).

Confirmed.