Black levels and accurate color FTW

[BD2003]

For a few years I had a Sony 34 inch CRT. It was bonafide HD, 1080i, but its real life resolution fell somewhere between 480p and 720p. But like any CRT, the black level on the set was amazing, and the overall image, while a little soft, was really nice.

Ended up "upgrading" to a 37 inch 1080p westinghouse LCD, mostly because I knew if I didnt sell that CRT soon, I'd be stuck with it. The LCD was sharper for sure, had zero geometry problems, and was super thin and light.

But man, the blacks on it are awful. Its fine when the lights are on, and I'm sure more expensive sets have better blacks in the dark. But it was such a massive difference. Not only that, but the colors were clearly off, something I knew was always a problem with LCD, but for the life of me, I could never get it to look right. The saturation setting AVIA gave me was a good 10 points over what was actually viewable, and the three colors were nowhere in agreement as to the proper level. Even after toning down the saturation to a viewable level, faces were still orange. And god forbid I stood up or sat too far to the side, and everything got thrown off even worse. There was really no way to calibrate this thing to look decent.

I remember a certain scene in a video game (Metroid Prime 3 for the Wii) that totally blew me away on the CRT - it was a really dark scene, with really over saturated reds, and the atmosphere was so thick and it just sucked you right in. It was like a window into another world. It was one of the first things I fired up when I got the LCD, and the greyish blacks and weak/inaccurate colors really destroyed any sort of atmosphere. Been playing oblivion recently, and it looks great in daytime scenes, but so awful in nighttime scenes. The greyish blacks in a true black room are such a constant reminder to you that youre looking at a screen, it really takes any immersion right out of what you're watching/playing.

So if you're in the market for a new set and are more concerned with image quality than aesthetics, seriously consider ANYTHING but an LCD. The first spec people look at when buying an LCD is resolution, and at a reasonable sitting distance, its nearly impossible to tell the difference over 720p (but thats a whole other thread). The second one they look at is contrast ratio - and LCD contrast ratios are a joke. Theyre only as high as they are because they can put out so much light that they can burn your retinas out, yet its incredibly hard to get a deep black on ANY lcd, and thats what you really want.

If you *must* buy an LCD, take a higher contrast ratio/deeper black over 1080p. I just read a 6 way comparison between HDTVs all of types in a mag (sound and vision I think), and the winner? A 720p plasma with excellent blacks. Beat out all the other 1080p LCDs, Plasmas and projections, judged by people who do this for a living, and even they were shocked it was the 720p on top. (They tested double blind, bezels covered up and everything).

Just placed an order for a SXRD RPTV. Sure, its not as thin, but its not like I'm watching the thing from the side.

Anyone wanna buy a 37 inch lcd?

 

[Shadowknight]

Yeah, I bought a 27" Insignia HD CRT the year before last. Two months ago, I decided to "upgrade" to a $2000 Samsung LCD, their next-to-the-most top of the line. Even though it was supposed to have some of the best blacks on the market for an LCD, and looked good in store, my Insignia kicked the crap out of it in terms of color reproduction and blacks. I wound up taking it back and buying a used Sony 34" xbrb960.

 

[Dman877]

Yeah, westy's are low end. You should have done a little research on your way into the market. Going from a sony to a westy is like... going from a sony to a westy

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Dman877
Yeah, westy's are low end. You should have done a little research on your way into the market. Going from a sony to a westy is like... going from a sony to a westy

Sure its low end, but the most expensive LCDs I've seen would have a difficult time matching the black level of your run of the mill CRT. Theres no question that LCD has its advantages, especially in a bright room, but if I had to go flat screen, I'd definitely go Plasma. Theres a reason they still make those, even though theyre more expensive than LCD...because they just plain look better.

Its really one of those things that you dont realize how important it is until its gone.

And as far as HD-CRTs go, the xbr960 is the finest ever made. I bet the image looks incredible. I also bet it took you 3 people to move it.

 

[Auric]

There's a reason for all the different technologies and that is that they are all compromises. So one must choose the least sucky for the application (and desir'd size) and at the price they are willing to pay.

 

[Tiamat]

I dunno, ever CRT I saw didn't have black blacks either. When the tube was off, it was a gray background, that was as black as it was gonna get. My experience has been that the LCD black is blacker than the Tube black, tube being a Sony Trinitron 32" from 1990s era. I also experienced this when going from a samsung CRT monitor to samsung LCD monitor. Shrugs.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Tiamat
I dunno, ever CRT I saw didn't have black blacks either. When the tube was off, it was a gray background, that was as black as it was gonna get. My experience has been that the LCD black is blacker than the Tube black, tube being a Sony Trinitron 32" from 1990s era. I also experienced this when going from a samsung CRT monitor to samsung LCD monitor. Shrugs.

Its not the blackness of the screen itself, but the minimum amount of light it can put out. Having a good black level is always contingent on setting it right - if you thought the black at night was grey like the tube when the lights are on, you had the brightness turned WAY too high.

 

[destrekor]

Yep. I miss my 480i 27" Philips flat CRT. Had beautiful picture and was very sharp for 480i, had amazing picture. But I knew there were limits with the PS3 (this is in December '06, think they may still be problems now too, but not sure) in regards to outputting 1080i and only 1080i resolution, if 720p wasn't an option. If that weren't the case, I probably would have went with the slim 1080i CRT I had been eying, as I believe it also had the least geometry issues.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Tiamat
I dunno, ever CRT I saw didn't have black blacks either. When the tube was off, it was a gray background, that was as black as it was gonna get. My experience has been that the LCD black is blacker than the Tube black, tube being a Sony Trinitron 32" from 1990s era. I also experienced this when going from a samsung CRT monitor to samsung LCD monitor. Shrugs.

You can take my mits RPTV from my cold dead hands.

The thing about black level that most don't understand is it is DIRECTLY related to color accuracy. You had light hitting the phosphers (sp?) in an inappropriate environment. Stick some nice speakers into the corners and you'll understand.

You can take the best of speakers there are and place them poorly and wind up with crappy sound. Same with a display.

The more I look and personally observe I am going to HAVE to move to front projection to get the video quality I am accustomed to until such time as a 75" 1080p plasma is something I want to blow money on. Because that kind of quality is what I'm used to.

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Tiamat
I dunno, ever CRT I saw didn't have black blacks either. When the tube was off, it was a gray background, that was as black as it was gonna get. My experience has been that the LCD black is blacker than the Tube black, tube being a Sony Trinitron 32" from 1990s era. I also experienced this when going from a samsung CRT monitor to samsung LCD monitor. Shrugs.

You can take my mits RPTV from my cold dead hands.

The thing about black level that most don't understand is it is DIRECTLY related to color accuracy. You had light hitting the phosphers (sp?) in an inappropriate environment. Stick some nice speakers into the corners and you'll understand.

You can take the best of speakers there are and place them poorly and wind up with crappy sound. Same with a display.

The more I look and personally observe I am going to HAVE to move to front projection to get the video quality I am accustomed to until such time as a 75" 1080p plasma is something I want to blow money on. Because that kind of quality is what I'm used to.

Yeah, what you said makes sense. So far the best pictures I have seen are a 1080P prof. calibrated pioneer Kuro and a JVC DLA-RS1 1080P Front projector in a darkened room.

 

[Shawn]

Westinghouse TVs are crap. The new Samsung LCDs have great black levels. Of course plasma is even better. If it really bothers you get a plasma set.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: destrekor
Yep. I miss my 480i 27" Philips flat CRT. Had beautiful picture and was very sharp for 480i, had amazing picture. But I knew there were limits with the PS3 (this is in December '06, think they may still be problems now too, but not sure) in regards to outputting 1080i and only 1080i resolution, if 720p wasn't an option. If that weren't the case, I probably would have went with the slim 1080i CRT I had been eying, as I believe it also had the least geometry issues.

I had an older Mistubishi CRT RPTV that couldnt accept 720p at all, and that was part of the reason that I got rid of it.

For what its worth, the Sony XBR that I owned had an incredible scaler/processor inside. It could accept a 720p signal, and display it so well that I had to put up patterns just to tell that it was actually interlacing it and displaying it in 1080i. 480p was in true progressive, and it made the Wii look amazing. 480i was likewise deinterlaced perfectly into 480p. And input lag or motion blur? Zero on both counts, at any resolution. The TV completely pwned for gaming, although you're limited to component input.

As far as geometry goes, mine was very good out of the box. Throwing up a crosshatch showed *very* slight divergences that were correctable in the service menu, but it was barely noticeable during actual playback.

If you can deal with the size and weight, the Sony 34 inch XBR960 is easily the best CRT money can buy, and I'd imagine you can pick one up for pretty cheap on craigslist or so. (Ended up selling mine for $400).

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Tiamat
I dunno, ever CRT I saw didn't have black blacks either. When the tube was off, it was a gray background, that was as black as it was gonna get. My experience has been that the LCD black is blacker than the Tube black, tube being a Sony Trinitron 32" from 1990s era. I also experienced this when going from a samsung CRT monitor to samsung LCD monitor. Shrugs.

You can take my mits RPTV from my cold dead hands.

The thing about black level that most don't understand is it is DIRECTLY related to color accuracy. You had light hitting the phosphers (sp?) in an inappropriate environment. Stick some nice speakers into the corners and you'll understand.

You can take the best of speakers there are and place them poorly and wind up with crappy sound. Same with a display.

The more I look and personally observe I am going to HAVE to move to front projection to get the video quality I am accustomed to until such time as a 75" 1080p plasma is something I want to blow money on. Because that kind of quality is what I'm used to.

Yep. The black level is basically the canvas on which everything else is superimposed, and if thats off, everything is off along with it. The naturally inaccurate greyscale and color reproduction of an LCD doesnt help. And then throw the typical consumer "enhancements" like red push on top of it, and it gets even worse.

If the black level of the screen is noticeably brighter than the room ambient light, the TV will cease to look be a transparent window into the world, destroying all the depth and impact of whatever it is you're watching.

The TV I eventually settled on is the Sony KDS-50A3000. Deep blacks and nearly perfect color and grayscale out of the box, as noted by several mags. 120hz, 1080p doesnt hurt either. Not to mention you can pretty much tweak/disable *everything* without going into the service menu.

Its not that I think LCDs are useless. If you're the kind of person that usually sticks with the "Vivid" preset on your TV, where its super bright, super saturated, and super sharpened, then LCD is perfectly fine. They certainly make excellent computer monitors.

Its too bad that RPTV, even digital ones (DLP, LCos, etc) are dead or dying. Sony is done at least, but Samsung and friends will probably make DLPs for a few more years. Always have been the best bang for the buck. Plasmas cost way too much, and FP is too cumbersome.

 

[TheDrake]

ya know, I never understood how anyone could tell a HUGE difference between contrast ratio's and between LCD and Plasma's and CRT's.... I mean unless you always watch TV in a absolute PITCH BLACK room every time of the day with no lights on then yeah I can understand, but in your typical living room you have lots of windows, lots of lights and I find it Very hard to tell such huge differences in black levels unless you turn off every source of light and make sure all the blinds are shut tight during the day, but honestly how many people actually do that? I know of not one person who has their Home Theater setup like that.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that you cant see a difference even during daylight, I am just saying I fail to see how the average person can even see a HUGE difference, its more like a very small difference and most people will even say "whats the difference again?" is my bet. I have however yet to see any television with a contrast ratio in the 100,000's:1 so maybe that will change my mind and a Huge difference can be seen compared to a 1,000:1 TV.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: destrekor
Yep. I miss my 480i 27" Philips flat CRT. Had beautiful picture and was very sharp for 480i, had amazing picture. But I knew there were limits with the PS3 (this is in December '06, think they may still be problems now too, but not sure) in regards to outputting 1080i and only 1080i resolution, if 720p wasn't an option. If that weren't the case, I probably would have went with the slim 1080i CRT I had been eying, as I believe it also had the least geometry issues.

I had an older Mistubishi CRT RPTV that couldnt accept 720p at all, and that was part of the reason that I got rid of it.

For what its worth, the Sony XBR that I owned had an incredible scaler/processor inside. It could accept a 720p signal, and display it so well that I had to put up patterns just to tell that it was actually interlacing it and displaying it in 1080i. 480p was in true progressive, and it made the Wii look amazing. 480i was likewise deinterlaced perfectly into 480p. And input lag or motion blur? Zero on both counts, at any resolution. The TV completely pwned for gaming, although you're limited to component input.

As far as geometry goes, mine was very good out of the box. Throwing up a crosshatch showed *very* slight divergences that were correctable in the service menu, but it was barely noticeable during actual playback.

If you can deal with the size and weight, the Sony 34 inch XBR960 is easily the best CRT money can buy, and I'd imagine you can pick one up for pretty cheap on craigslist or so. (Ended up selling mine for $400).

well it's a bit too late, I already own a 32" Sharp LCD (720p). For space reasons, and easy transport between campus and home, the LCD is definitely what I wanted. But yep, all display types have pros and cons, and well, the LCD's con is definitely less vibrant color, less contrast, and far worse black levels than a CRT. Pretty bad cons list, eh? lol
I do like my LCD, and as far as color is concerned, it does look pretty good considering the age of the panel tech. The newer LCDs fare better, but I've had mine calibrated and it looks nice for the set. But yea, I miss the black levels and actual details in the blacks, not the black crush that is pretty much impossible to prevent. That's actually what I miss the most from CRT's is the black level and is the first thing I look at when looking at new displays.

Originally posted by: TheDrake
ya know, I never understood how anyone could tell a HUGE difference between contrast ratio's and between LCD and Plasma's and CRT's.... I mean unless you always watch TV in a absolute PITCH BLACK room every time of the day with no lights on then yeah I can understand, but in your typical living room you have lots of windows, lots of lights and I find it Very hard to tell such huge differences in black levels unless you turn off every source of light and make sure all the blinds are shut tight during the day, but honestly how many people actually do that? I know of not one person who has their Home Theater setup like that.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that you cant see a difference even during daylight, I am just saying I fail to see how the average person can even see a HUGE difference, its more like a very small difference and most people will even say "whats the difference again?" is my bet. I have however yet to see any television with a contrast ratio in the 100,000's:1 so maybe that will change my mind and a Huge difference can be seen compared to a 1,000:1 TV.

look at a CRT, and then look at an LCD. That CRT likely has a contrast ratio way above your limit of hundreds of thousands. Hell, the Sony RPTV mentioned by BD2003 claims to have 10000:1 (dynamic?), and you will most definitely notice a difference between 10000:1 and a 3000:1 dynamic contrast LCD.

FWIW, I only watch/view anything in as dark of an environment as possible. I turn off lights, I close the blinds (the living room has one window in my dorm/apartment), as I want to immerse myself as much as possible. Granted, in these conditions, I am usually satisfied with the black level when watching the highest quality material (playing a PS3 game, watching a BD). But movies, between the audio and video, are basically my favorite thing. I love getting completely taken in by the movie. I find that real enjoyable then.

But even in a fully lit environment, I can still notice my LCD has far worse black levels than the non-HD CRT I once had. And FWIW, I also notice that difference in my computer monitor (LCD, formally CRT).

But also, how many people actually make heavy use of their home theater during the day? TV usage, for everybody, tends to be greater at night unless you work at night. Then I understand. I rarely watch movies during the day. I'll watch tv episodes and play video games, but I still attempt to remove some light. But not always. When it's warm, I'll tend to have windows open, blinds open, and lights on (or off if sunny outside) and just sit back and watch either episodes of south park or futurama or something, military/discovery channel, or play a game.. and I feel like then, I don't need the immersion factor as in the spring I enjoy having as much light as possible (light and warmth combined give me energy. part of that sociological winter depression/summer happiness a lot of people experience). But for movies, I still usually wait for night and make the room as dark as possible.

 

[Nutdotnet]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Tiamat
I dunno, ever CRT I saw didn't have black blacks either. When the tube was off, it was a gray background, that was as black as it was gonna get. My experience has been that the LCD black is blacker than the Tube black, tube being a Sony Trinitron 32" from 1990s era. I also experienced this when going from a samsung CRT monitor to samsung LCD monitor. Shrugs.

You can take my mits RPTV from my cold dead hands.

The thing about black level that most don't understand is it is DIRECTLY related to color accuracy. You had light hitting the phosphers (sp?) in an inappropriate environment. Stick some nice speakers into the corners and you'll understand.

You can take the best of speakers there are and place them poorly and wind up with crappy sound. Same with a display.

The more I look and personally observe I am going to HAVE to move to front projection to get the video quality I am accustomed to until such time as a 75" 1080p plasma is something I want to blow money on. Because that kind of quality is what I'm used to.

Yep. The black level is basically the canvas on which everything else is superimposed, and if thats off, everything is off along with it. The naturally inaccurate greyscale and color reproduction of an LCD doesnt help. And then throw the typical consumer "enhancements" like red push on top of it, and it gets even worse.

If the black level of the screen is noticeably brighter than the room ambient light, the TV will cease to look be a transparent window into the world, destroying all the depth and impact of whatever it is you're watching.

The TV I eventually settled on is the Sony KDS-50A3000. Deep blacks and nearly perfect color and grayscale out of the box, as noted by several mags. 120hz, 1080p doesnt hurt either. Not to mention you can pretty much tweak/disable *everything* without going into the service menu.

Its not that I think LCDs are useless. If you're the kind of person that usually sticks with the "Vivid" preset on your TV, where its super bright, super saturated, and super sharpened, then LCD is perfectly fine. They certainly make excellent computer monitors.

Its too bad that RPTV, even digital ones (DLP, LCos, etc) are dead or dying. Sony is done at least, but Samsung and friends will probably make DLPs for a few more years. Always have been the best bang for the buck. Plasmas cost way too much, and FP is too cumbersome.

Isn't SXRD a derivative of LCD?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: TheDrake
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that you cant see a difference even during daylight, I am just saying I fail to see how the average person can even see a HUGE difference, its more like a very small difference and most people will even say "whats the difference again?" is my bet. I have however yet to see any television with a contrast ratio in the 100,000's:1 so maybe that will change my mind and a Huge difference can be seen compared to a 1,000:1 TV.

You cant see a HUGE difference during daytime, but during evening when the sun is down and living room lights are on, its quite a bit more obvious. I certainly agree the average person probably doesnt and shouldnt care. Anyone who takes the time to enter a HT related message board, probably cares though. Still, if you had them side by side, even average joe would pick the one with deeper blacks.

Keep in mind you can raise contrast ratio two ways - deepen the black level, or increase the maximum light output. Its much more difficult to deepen the black level than throw in a brighter backlight. The LCDs on store shelves right now are painfully bright in a dark room.

Hell, the Sony RPTV mentioned by BD2003 claims to have 10000:1 (dynamic?), and you will most definitely notice a difference between 10000:1 and a 3000:1 dynamic contrast LCD.

Yep, dynamic, but with the Auto Iris off, peak measured at 4269:1. This is with a black level of 0.013fL, which is very good. Peak white is 54.7fL.

Most LCDs I've seen/read about put out black levels starting at 0.08, and have peak light outputs over 100. That is uncomfortably bright, and even at that level, contrast ratio is probably under 1000 because of the black level. Lower the brightness to a reasonable level, and the contrast level drops even more.

Generally though, plasma kicks ass on black levels. There ARE good LCDs, but theyre VERY expensive.

Isn't SXRD a derivative of LCD?

Yep, its basically LCos. (Liquid crystal on silicon.) I couldnt tell you off the top of my head how it differs from an LCD RPTV, since I dont know how LCD RPTVs work.

If theres anything to come away with, its not to shop based on manufacturer numbers (lies, dirty lies) or the super bright and vivid displays you see in store. If youre going to make a $1000+ purchase, definitely get a hold of independently measured numbers, and try to view it in store with the same settings you'd use at home. Just set it back afterwards, the salesmen seem to get annoyed when you actually make the picture look good.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Nutdotnet
Isn't SXRD a derivative of LCD?

Yep, its basically LCos. (Liquid crystal on silicon.) I couldnt tell you off the top of my head how it differs from an LCD RPTV, since I dont know how LCD RPTVs work.

If theres anything to come away with, its not to shop based on manufacturer numbers (lies, dirty lies) or the super bright and vivid displays you see in store. If youre going to make a $1000+ purchase, definitely get a hold of independently measured numbers, and try to view it in store with the same settings you'd use at home. Just set it back afterwards, the salesmen seem to get annoyed when you actually make the picture look good.

iirc, LCoS/SXRD uses 3 small LCD panels, each with one of the three primary colors, and combine that with DLP-style projection using a silicon chip and the 3 panels (may have more, but in groups of 3 if that's the case, depends where the panels are).

are there even LCD RPTVs? I wasn't aware of a basic LCD rear-projection.. as that sounds like there wouldn't be a worthwhile difference between it and a regular non-projection LCD setup, if not altogether worse.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Nutdotnet
Isn't SXRD a derivative of LCD?

Yep, its basically LCos. (Liquid crystal on silicon.) I couldnt tell you off the top of my head how it differs from an LCD RPTV, since I dont know how LCD RPTVs work.

If theres anything to come away with, its not to shop based on manufacturer numbers (lies, dirty lies) or the super bright and vivid displays you see in store. If youre going to make a $1000+ purchase, definitely get a hold of independently measured numbers, and try to view it in store with the same settings you'd use at home. Just set it back afterwards, the salesmen seem to get annoyed when you actually make the picture look good.

iirc, LCoS/SXRD uses 3 small LCD panels, each with one of the three primary colors, and combine that with DLP-style projection using a silicon chip and the 3 panels (may have more, but in groups of 3 if that's the case, depends where the panels are).

are there even LCD RPTVs? I wasn't aware of a basic LCD rear-projection.. as that sounds like there wouldn't be a worthwhile difference between it and a regular non-projection LCD setup, if not altogether worse.

Yep, there are definitely basic LCD RPTVs. Pretty sure the basic difference is that LCoS has light bouncing off the 3 panels, vs. LCD which is transmissive...light shines through a single screen before being projected.

 

[zinfamous]

did you guys see the demo from CES of the next-next gen Pioneer Kuros? the ultra-blacks or whatever? They were saying that they may be 4 years off....but holy crap those things are amazing.

 

[brian_riendeau]

I gotta say I had about the same reaction of the OP when I went from CRT to LCD. I had a rather aged Panasonic CRT that was very high end when I bought it (it had component inputs when component was a hot new thing). Black on that TV were just that, black. The TV could be on displaying a black image and you never would have knock the TV was on.

I went with a Sharp Aquos 32D43U which I determined though countless hours of internet research was "good". Better than average contrast ratio too (compared to sub $1000 32 inch displays). After setting it up and enjoying it for a bit, once I turned off the room lights and pretty much wanted to take the thing back. There is really no black, no matter what I try, its all fairly lit up. Even if I turn everything down and display a black image, in a dark room its really obvious that the TV is on and emitting light. If I lower the setting to tolerable levels for late night viewing of dark content, when the lights come on I need to change everything again.