Once purges start they're hard to stop. Respect, decency, and civility come at the price of a willingness to choke down things you consider offensive.
I agree that things can be taken too far and removing monuments to Thomas Jefferson (especially at the university he founded) is stupid. I hope there's no further argument in favor of keeping monuments to confederates though, I hope we can all agree that monuments to race based enslavement and treason aren't something the public should support.
I agree that things can be taken too far and removing monuments to Thomas Jefferson (especially at the university he founded) is stupid. I hope there's no further argument in favor of keeping monuments to confederates though, I hope we can all agree that monuments to race based enslavement and treason aren't something the public should support.
The problem with people is that once they achieve a reasonable goal they sometimes push things to the unreasonable as we have here. This is as bad as what they protest and this should not stand.
Here it isI strongly encourage posters to actually read the article & the list of demands before wading in. It does not call for the removal of the statue of Jefferson, for example.
I strongly encourage posters to actually read the article & the list of demands before wading in. It does not call for the removal of the statue of Jefferson, for example.
UVA’s historical landscape must be balanced. The statue of Jefferson serves as an emblem of white supremacy, and should be re-contextualized with a plaque to include that history.
Tomorrow it will the fruit of the loom guys and Clorox.Is Thomas Jefferson really an emblem of white supremacy?
I agree that things can be taken too far and removing monuments to Thomas Jefferson (especially at the university he founded) is stupid. I hope there's no further argument in favor of keeping monuments to confederates though, I hope we can all agree that monuments to race based enslavement and treason aren't something the public should support.
And Mr CleanTomorrow it will the fruit of the loom guys and Clorox.
I agree, but evidently the general public does not.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...e-if-we-should-take-down-confederate-statues/
30% say take take them down, 48% say don't take them down, 22% have no opinion.
I'm betting a large chunk of the 48% aren't even southerners. They just think it's too much conflict over a statue. What's the big deal, right? If taking them down is going to cause a riot, then just leave them there....
I wonder how many people would think it's OK to put up a statue of, say, Heinrich Himmler at a university in Germany, or even here in the US?
Part of the problem is that our popular culture has for some reason romanticized the confederacy and its leaders. Even my high school history text, which condemned the institution of slavery, nevertheless had largely positive commentary on Lee. If this continues to be how Lee is treated in history texts, this might be why some see Lee as benign.
A statue to Heinrich Himmler would be horrifying.
A statue to Erwin Rommel? I don't think I would object as much to that, and I'd wager that some Germans wouldn't either.
A statue to Heinrich Himmler would be horrifying.
A statue to Erwin Rommel? I don't think I would object as much to that, and I'd wager that some Germans wouldn't either.
I hold no romantic notions of the confederacy. I'm conflicted about taking down statues because it's a slippery slope, as the OPs example illustrates.
No it doesn't but it does want to recontextualize it.
Is Thomas Jefferson really an emblem of white supremacy?
Let 'em be dramatic.
When cops stop shooting people without cause then we can revisit toning things down.
Intent and context of monuments should play a factor.I live right next to one of the larger ultra-orthodox Jewish communities in the country and I'm about 99% sure they would be absolutely horrified by a statue of Rommel in our city. Similarly, most cities in the south have large or majority black populations. It is perfectly reasonable for them to be equally horrified by statues honoring men who furiously battled to make sure that people like them were kept as human property.
It's the same thing for both men. They are generally viewed as decent soldiers who fought in the service of incredibly evil causes. (although Lee was a pretty horrible person in his private life as well and Rommel wasn't exactly the biggest anti-Nazi you would meet) People generally don't want to commemorate decent people fighting for evil.
I'm sure that slave holding among the founders is justification for the beliefs of modern day white supremacists.
Are you suggesting that Rommel is a better parallel with Lee than Himmler? Perhaps. But there are a couple of key differences. Lee both fought for a regime which supported slavery AND owned slaves himself. Rommel only fought for the bad regime. He wasn't known to have ever participated in any atrocities. Also,most importantly, Rommel actively engaged a plot to assassinate Hitler and topple the Nazi regime. This I think is what has permitted his image to remain largely positive. Had he never done that, I doubt he would be viewed as positively as he is. I think had Lee tried to overthrow the confederacy, it would be more legit to view him not so negatively.
Intent and context of monuments should play a factor.
Take Stonewall Jackson. Cadets at VMI hold Jackson in very high regard. Cadets from VMI served as a unit fighting against the Union at the Battle of New Market. VMI continues to honor both Jackson and those cadets who fell in combat against the Union. Should we close VMI or end those traditions? It is a state school, but those traditions are also part of VMI's very identity.
When I was in the Army, the names of Confederate generals held a place of honor in everything from military doctrine and training manuals to barracks, museums and even ceremonial affairs. Lee was a traitor but also a hero of the Mexican War.
The path from where we are now to book burnings and thought crimes is surprisingly fast.
I'm sure that slave holding among the founders is justification for the beliefs of modern day white supremacists.
I live right next to one of the larger ultra-orthodox Jewish communities in the country and I'm about 99% sure they would be absolutely horrified by a statue of Rommel in our city. Similarly, most cities in the south have large or majority black populations. It is perfectly reasonable for them to be equally horrified by statues honoring men who furiously battled to make sure that people like them were kept as human property.
It's the same thing for both men. They are generally viewed as decent soldiers who fought in the service of incredibly evil causes. (although Lee was a pretty horrible person in his private life as well and Rommel wasn't exactly the biggest anti-Nazi you would meet) People generally don't want to commemorate decent people fighting for evil.