Blu-ray is king.

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Blu-ray can't lose the high-def format war.

Why?

It's too bloody useful.

Unlike normal DVDs, HD-DVD has pretty much no support for the desktop PC, and does not mark an advancement in storage technology.

Blu-ray, on the other hand, is an effective backup media, capable of storing 27gb now, with larger capacity discs soon to come. Sooner or later, much like CD-ROMs, we're all going to end up needing it anyway.

HD-DVD is in many ways a superior format at the moment - it's fine for 90% of HDTVs sold today, the players are cheap enough to produce, and even the media is less expensive - I'm more likely to buy a HD-DVD player than a blu-ray player because I'd rather buy a modestly price 720p 32" Olevia LCD and a HD-DVD player (about $900 total) than buy a HD-DVD player for use with my 13" Magnavox ($900.) However, HD-DVD will only last so long before blu-ray equipment becomes cheap - and when that happens, it's "hasta la vista, HD-DVD".

For the meantime, we have sony's PS3 pushing blu-ray - unlike the Xbox360, all PS3s have the new DVD standard built in, and many people are getting their first taste of truly high-def movies from the PS3 as a result.

As a side note, blue diode lasers (like those in blu-ray players) are really, really useful - they're also very new. Much like CD players (which, when first released, also cost $900 - just as much as a top-notch blu-ray player) in the 80's, the parts are a bit pricey to manufacture - but that will change very, very fast, with increased demand both from enterprise-level computing and for Sony's console.
 

SoundTheSurrender

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
3,126
0
0
The market determines what will be better, just because it has some better features doesn't mean that it will be popular.
 

Megamixman

Member
Oct 30, 2004
150
0
0
Just to note, Sony has released many formats that had some advantage, but at the same time, almost all of them had an economic disadvantage, thus they all failed.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Wrong forum and as someone here for over 2 years you should know better.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: bsobel
Wrong forum and as someone here for over 2 years you should know better.

I disagree - Blu-Ray is a useful tool. I'm stating that although it's an inferior format (@#$@#$ expensive!), it's usefulness will make it outlast the competition.

I was actually hoping someone could enlighten us on the manufacture of blue diode lasers - they're a pretty recent development, and while they're tremendously useful for just about everything that one would use a laser for, I have no idea how they're produced.


Also, I'm curious to how blu-ray compares to, say, massive tape drives, in the opinion of those who actually use them.
 

kedlav

Senior member
Aug 2, 2006
632
0
0
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
Blu-ray can't lose the high-def format war.

Why?

It's too bloody useful.

Unlike normal DVDs, HD-DVD has pretty much no support for the desktop PC, and does not mark an advancement in storage technology.

Blu-ray, on the other hand, is an effective backup media, capable of storing 27gb now, with larger capacity discs soon to come. Sooner or later, much like CD-ROMs, we're all going to end up needing it anyway.

HD-DVD is in many ways a superior format at the moment - it's fine for 90% of HDTVs sold today, the players are cheap enough to produce, and even the media is less expensive - I'm more likely to buy a HD-DVD player than a blu-ray player because I'd rather buy a modestly price 720p 32" Olevia LCD and a HD-DVD player (about $900 total) than buy a HD-DVD player for use with my 13" Magnavox ($900.) However, HD-DVD will only last so long before blu-ray equipment becomes cheap - and when that happens, it's "hasta la vista, HD-DVD".

For the meantime, we have sony's PS3 pushing blu-ray - unlike the Xbox360, all PS3s have the new DVD standard built in, and many people are getting their first taste of truly high-def movies from the PS3 as a result.

As a side note, blue diode lasers (like those in blu-ray players) are really, really useful - they're also very new. Much like CD players (which, when first released, also cost $900 - just as much as a top-notch blu-ray player) in the 80's, the parts are a bit pricey to manufacture - but that will change very, very fast, with increased demand both from enterprise-level computing and for Sony's console.

First, HDDVD players are outselling BD players. Before the PS3, the rate was 3:1, figures haven't been updated since, though I assume its pretty close to parity now. Just as importantly, the attach rate for HDDVDs significantly exceeds that of BD, and this has only been growing as more BD players are selling to a market that traditionally has inferior attach rates(Playstations as only household player). Furthermore, as HDDVD addon drives are selling as an independent unit, it is likely they will have a higher attach rate than most PS3s. While volume is important, it doesn't mean squat if no one's buying the videos. Funny also how HDDVD is fine only for 90% of the TVs, when the Toshiba is, to the best of my knowledge, compatible with every TV on the market today, whereas PS3s have serious known issues that Sony may or may not be able to resolve with older HD sets. BD has a lot going for it, mostly studio support, but if the ship looks to be sinking(which it isn't on either side), the sharks at the movie companies will jump ship faster than you could imagine.

As far as data backup, well, the only place it sells in significant volume is within the commercial IT sector, where expensive 50GB discs are not the ideal medium for backing up data when reliable, cheaper tape medium is available. Fanbois like yourself, as well as nerds like myself will not buy BD media in sufficient numbers for this to be a driving force for the adoption of the media, its only a small bonus that's a drop of water in the big ocean...
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,143
30,098
146
Originally posted by: Megamixman
Just to note, Sony has released many formats that had some advantage, but at the same time, almost all of them had an economic disadvantage, thus they all failed.


Yeppers. The market will determine things. And as Sony has proven many times before, better technology does not dictate what the market decides...you do remember BetaMax, yes?

I don't think the extra storage capability of Blu-ray discs will matter. It won't make as significant a difference for games/movies (I can't imagine developers wanting to cram so much information onto one disc...maybe I'm wrong). As far as data goes, there are and will be better formats by the time Blu-Ray is affordable (50g flash drives, etc).

It baffles me when people talk about the future of storage capacity. It's great that a CD, or DVD can maintain data for "100 years" (unproven, of course). Well, it doesn't matter if it can be proven. The technology 100 years later will be unable to read the data off of such an archaic format.

I don't see HDDVD losing this one. The masses can be convinced many number of ways as to what usefullness really is.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: kedlav

First, HDDVD players are outselling BD players. Before the PS3, the rate was 3:1, figures haven't been updated since, though I assume its pretty close to parity now. Just as importantly, the attach rate for HDDVDs significantly exceeds that of BD, and this has only been growing as more BD players are selling to a market that traditionally has inferior attach rates(Playstations as only household player).

Er...I said myself that BD is a stupid format. Too expensive, too hard to make work with anything else. I, myself, would rather by a HD-DVD player. The question is wether blu-ray's prices will drop to match HD-DVDs by the time that high-definition movies reach the mainstream - most folks I know don't even have a 480p capable TV.

Originally posted by: kedlav
As far as data backup, well, the only place it sells in significant volume is within the commercial IT sector, where expensive 50GB discs are not the ideal medium for backing up data when reliable, cheaper tape medium is available. Fanbois like yourself, as well as nerds like myself will not buy BD media in sufficient numbers for this to be a driving force for the adoption of the media, its only a small bonus that's a drop of water in the big ocean...

Tape has plenty of problems of its own - it requires large equipment, it still suffers from degredation, and seek time is bloody awful. The "commercial IT sector" has been backing things up on DVDs for ages for exactly this reason - and, from what I've heard, it's being adopted pretty fast as the new best way to back up data.

As an added bonus, 50GB+ discs will be on the market not too long from now - that's more than comparable to a tape cassette.


 

RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,586
0
0
There are two problems (at a minimum) with Blu-Ray as backup media for servers:

1) It doesn't hold enough data. DAT72 tape drives, which hold 36GB, are already useless for many companies. Even small ones. At least DAT72 tapes are fairly cheap.

2) Nobody knows how reliable Blu-Ray will be. I wouldn't trust CD and DVD for MY backups. Your opinion may vary. I certainly wouldn't trust Blu-Ray right now.
 

Twsmit

Senior member
Nov 30, 2003
925
0
76
On the multimedia side of things, HD-DVD and Bluray are for average consumers 99% the same except for storage capacity. The first generation of BD dvds supported MPEG2 and don't look too good, but otherwise once movies move to H.264 or VC1 there aren't any appreciable differences on the movie side of things.

I agree with the OP that the storage capacity of Bluray looks really appetizing on the PC, but I honestly don't see the PC being a factor in adoption in the living room.
 

Bobthelost

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,360
0
0
The PS3 doesn't appear to be making it's way to the EU any time soon. I think the expectation is that we're a year behind you, ie around this time next year there'll only be a handful in shops (they pushed the release date back and it'd be amazing if this was the last time they do it). As such Blu-ray is fighting it's war without it's champion in the EU at least.

So people are being faced with buying a very expensive (around $1000ish)bluray or a much cheaper standalone for HDTV (around $660). Hell the 360's HDDVD player will only cost $260 or so over here when it's released. By the time they get widespread hopefully the dual standard players will have hit the market making life much easier. Can anyone else see a +/- result forming here?
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/09/27/hd_dvd_support_a_last_minute_switch/

HD DVD support a last minute switch, Microsoft says

Scott M. Fulton, III

September 27, 2005 19:02

Redmond (WA) - In an exclusive interview with Tom's Hardware Guide, one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee said that decisions regarding whether his company and Intel would back and promote HD DVD as a high-definition video disc standard, were determined only within the last few days. Prior to some critical recent developments and announcements, both companies - which had proclaimed neutrality - may have been ready to back Blu-ray.

"Until now, we viewed ourselves more as a technology provider for both groups," said Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media, and a key developer of the VC-1 codec currently in use by both HD DVD and Blu-ray. He revealed that Microsoft and Intel had produced a list of what he called "key requirements for the success of next-generation DVD." For several months, while those requirements were being circulated, both companies worked on developing key standards to be implemented by both formats. Ribas said he was directly involved with implementing the VC-1 codec, and also worked jointly with Disney to produce the iHD interactive layer considered by both camps, but eventually adopted only by HD DVD (Disney is a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association.) During that time, Intel and Microsoft both maintained their public neutrality. But very recently, from the two companies' perspective, things started unraveling unexpectedly for Blu-ray.

hddvd2
"Our decision is based mainly on where the formats are today," Ribas said, referring to Microsoft. "A year and a half ago, both format organizations had very similar goals, and to some extent, the story of Blu-ray was actually very powerful. It had higher capacity, it had what we would consider benefits at the time. But then as time went on, and we'd seen what's the reality of both formats today, and what were promises versus what's proven and what's real, that's when we decided to make the decision."

Blu-ray failed the Intel/Microsoft test in six critical areas, Ribas told us, referring to a document listing those areas that a Microsoft spokesperson provided to Tom's Hardware Guide:

First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc , in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted.

Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's. "That's something that both promised," said Ribas, "but HD DVD delivered, and Blu-ray has not - and it seems it's nowhere in sight. [Blu-ray has] claimed they have it in the lab, but to go from the lab to mass production is like night and day. There's a lot of effort that needs to happen. So as of now, there's nothing that leads us to believe that that's going to be possible [from Blu-ray] at this point."

Maintaining low production costs is a critical factor, which has been a key HD DVD talking point in light of current revelations about factory upgrade costs for Blu-ray. "For a long time, we actually thought that the Blu-ray Group had the upper hand in costs," Ribas said, mainly because of the involvement in Blu-ray of most of the major Japanese CE manufacturers - Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, and Sharp - as well as Philips. Here is where recent events played a critical role: In a development that was brought to light only this morning , two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray. In press statements, these companies cited the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. "Now that we see China embracing HD DVD," said Ribas, "we actually see that on the cost side, HD DVD will have an advantage, because the Chinese have been the ones who have lowered the prices, via the competition, for HD DVD players." As much as 75 percent of DVD players sold in America today come from China, he added.

Maintaining low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media, said Ribas, which would play into any price/performance evaluation. A disc production factory can make minor upgrades to its equipment, he stated, with the result being equipment that can produce both conventional DVD as well as HD DVD. Citing figures circulating this week throughout the industry, Ribas said it would cost as much as $1.7 million per production line to install Blu-ray disc production equipment, and as much as $2.0 million for each new mastering system installed. That's a significant expense, he explained, for a business which only turns over a 10 percent margin.

The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity . On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.

The final entry is interactivity standards . Although Microsoft and Disney jointly developed the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML - which is the glue that holds together the "Vista vision" of Microsoft's future Windows platform - and even though Disney is a Blu-ray proponent, the Association chose instead to endorse BDJ, an implementation of Sun-s Java Mobile Edition. Ribas told us that the major studios - either publicly or quietly - are opposed to BDJ, citing its relative complexity and its lack of compelling new features compared to iHD. An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.

"Intel was looking at similar issues," said Ribas, "and [we] realized, 'We are getting very close to getting these things into the market, we have to stop hoping or expecting or believing promises. We have to look at what's real and what's not.' That's where our decision came from."

Ribas told us more about his and his company's expectations for the future of video disc technologies and interactive media in general. Stay in touch with Tom's Hardware Guide for more of our interview this afternoon with Microsoft's Jordi Ribas.

Tom's Hardware Guide has contacted the Blu-ray Disc Association early Tuesday for comment on today's developments. So far, the organization has not responded to our inquiries.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
There are two problems (at a minimum) with Blu-Ray as backup media for servers:

1) It doesn't hold enough data. DAT72 tape drives, which hold 36GB, are already useless for many companies. Even small ones. At least DAT72 tapes are fairly cheap.

2) Nobody knows how reliable Blu-Ray will be. I wouldn't trust CD and DVD for MY backups. Your opinion may vary. I certainly wouldn't trust Blu-Ray right now.

HD-DVDs are soon going to drop in price. Remember when CD-Rs cost $36 each? Now, thirty-six cents is regarded as pricey. The same applies to DVD burners - the earliest DVD-R drives were nearly a thousand dollars, now they can be had for forty bucks.

Also, they're not really so useful for archives, but for storage of large files. Tapes have nasty seek times, and can only be played back so many times before they degrade, but HD-DVDs are a great format for storing media - you can fit almost six times as much as you could on an old DVD-R on a blu-ray disc.

Consider, for example, a recording studio. Sixteen tracks at 48-bit quality (eight stereo mics, for example) will eat a massive amount of disc space - a three-hour session could easily be over twenty gigabytes. A blu-ray disc can hold the whole mess with ease.

When the CD is handed over to the guy who does the mixing, he'll likely be accessing individual files repeatedly - murder on a tape, but no problem at all for a disc. All he needs to do is put the BR disc in his PC, and he has all twenty-odd gigabytes of files at his fingertips.

Digital video is even worse - high-def camcorders, which are now dropping in price to the point where any television studio can afford one, can use an absurd 27mb/s for COMPRESSED video - that's only 30 minutes on a dual-layer blu-ray disc, or roughly three minutes on a standard DVD-R. (And don't get me started on uncompressed video - 323mb/s!)

http://red.com/workflow.htm

As a side note, I would like to point out that I think HD-DVD is a great format for watching movies - I'd rather buy a HD-DVD than a blu-ray disc, partially due to my dislike of sony.
 

Bobthelost

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,360
0
0
Tape drives were hitting 66GB per tape in 2000, you're telling me they've reduced in size since then?

Also they aren't making 50GB in mass production yet are they? Which puts it well into the future for industrial backup use.

Considering 3.5" HDs are predicted to hit 2TB with perpendicular recording that means that even your 50GB Blueray is going to be woefully undersized and over expensive. DVD media would need to be shown to be long lasting, cost efficent, and sufficenly better in both those categories to replace legacy systems that have proved themselves. Don't hold out on it.

You're far from showing that bluray will dominate HD DVD, here now and proven nearly always beat maybes.
 

VisionxOrb

Member
Mar 17, 2006
113
0
0
This thread also fails to mention that tri layer HD-dvd disk have been able to be produced with good success and its rumored that even the orignial toshiba hd-dvd player with original firmware support the disks unoffically. That brings the possible hd-dvd capacity up to 45 gigs vs the vaporware dual layer 50gb blu-ray.
 

Rage187

Lifer
Dec 30, 2000
14,276
4
81
my 360 hddvd works on my pc and the 360.

DVD has more than enough room right now, and I'll await Holographic discs before worrying about upgrading for storage.

/thread
 

Minerva

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,116
13
81
Did you know the laser in the player isn't really blue? It's purple like that blacklight bulb from the 60's.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
Tape has plenty of problems of its own - it requires large equipment, it still suffers from degredation, and seek time is bloody awful. The "commercial IT sector" has been backing things up on DVDs for ages for exactly this reason - and, from what I've heard, it's being adopted pretty fast as the new best way to back up data.

And where do you get your numbers?

No one backs up to DVDs. Are you f'ing crazy? 100 dvds or 4 tapes. Almost everyone uses automatic tape backups.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
The "commercial IT sector" has been backing things up on DVDs for ages for exactly this reason - and, from what I've heard, it's being adopted pretty fast as the new best way to back up data.

No they have not in any large scales. I work for the largest backup software provider in the world, we know what our customers are using

 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
People bring up the Playstation 3 all the time, but it is $600 while the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive is only $200. You don't even need an Xbox to use it either since its HD-DVD drive can be hooked to a computer. Someone posted about them being on sale $100 in Hot Deals earlier this week. Let me know when I can get a Blu-ray player for $100.

HD-DVD has mandatory managed copy features, with Blu-ray it's up to the movie company if you get any copy features. Do you really trust that the movie companies are going to let you make copies if Blu-ray wins the format war?
 
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