Blue Screen? Arrgh I am tired of this!!!

[johnlog]

LinuxFreak,

>>>its FREAKand for two, I dont use linux for a &quot;status symbol&quot; If I want to impress someone, I'll do it on a commodore. <<<

I can agree with you about Commodore as it probably is a much superior system over Linux and most likely much more stable and capable than Linux.

Keep that ol' Commodore running!

JohnL

 

[UnixFreak]

Just because you cant figure it out, does not mean its a bad system. You probably cant work a commodore, either. You are a new-generation winbaby, there is little hope for you.

 

[emjem]

This pssss'g contest sounds like the old days of Mac vs Pc, lol. And hey, I used to know how to program a Commodore too, but the old IBM 650 was my favorite.

I don't want to enter this contest -- just need to say that I've been using WinME for several months now and I don't have bsods.

I had a few problems early on but those were eliminated with the sp for IE 5.5, and being a little less aggressive at OCing my system. Further, contrary to popular advice, I installed ME over WinFE.

It seems to me that bsods are mostly the result of unruly, poorly written applications mucking up the os (like not cleaning out ram when they close). Win2k, nt and Linux may be able to stop these chit poor apps from crashing the system -- but as of now no other os can come close to matching Win98 for driver availability and variety of software -- that's mainly why I use it, and that's why I use a pc instead of a mac.

Anyone having bsods with Win98/SE/ME should be looking at the non OS software and/or drivers they are using as the culprits. In that regard I agree with johnlog that too many answers to problems are &quot;format C&quot;, or &quot;switch to Linux/2K&quot; (I wonder where the &quot;switch to Mac&quot; people are).

I tip my hat to all you Linux and 2k users for working through these early days of development. Hope it amounts to something worthwhile down the road.

In the meantime, ME is staying on my system until I can walk into Comp USA and see equal or greater shelf space assigned to Linux, or whatever. And that's the same worthwhile rule I used with Mac vs Pc.

 

[UnixFreak]

You bring up a very good point, and thats why I am always
advocating the use of linux, and &quot;alternative&quot; OS'
is because the more people use it, the more software and
support will be available, and recently, I have seen more and more development aimed at linux, and I like the fact, because its just like the old days when those two guys in garage tryed to overthrow dead culture, and take on IBM. Some of us, including me, are tired of the same old bull from Microsoft, after years of it, it gets old, and gets worse as time goes on, they have taken the old IBM approach, and without any real competition, there is no incentive to strive for real excellence. I agree that with switching to linux, you have to give up a lot of programs, I myself use a microsoft machine for a few programs I simply cannot get with linux, but programs pop up every day, bringing more and more to my faithful linux machine. Unlike the accusations by the petty folks on here, most of use this OS, not for a &quot;status symbol&quot; or because we are dumb, and wasting our time, its because of the reliablity, the ability to have full power over our devices, and the ability to modify the code. I would love to see the day MS would release the code for even win3.11, but It will never happen, they wont even let us move IRQs sometimes, they like to have all the power. This is great for novice users, so they dont screw it up, for those who know what to do, and how to do it, it hinders us considerably. I agree with your standpoint though.


Q]In the meantime, ME is staying on my system until I can walk into Comp USA and see equal or greater shelf space assigned to Linux, or whatever. And that's the same worthwhile rule I used with Mac vs Pc. [/i] >>

 

[Priit]

I have tried WinME, too. Saw only few BSOD-s, WinME mostly crashed with &quot;Illegal Operation&quot; and freezed completely or made instant restart, screwing up file system. Are those people, who are saying &quot;linux is bad&quot; and &quot;my Winblows is just as stable&quot; ever tried to live with linux ? BTW I though that linux is BS too until W95 came out...

 

[UnixFreak]

Linux was very buggy then, but win95 started a whole new generation of buggy OS' for microsoft, so neither was really any good back then. I stayed with DOS as long as I could in those days.

 

[johnlog]

>>>There are plenty of ISPs running on a UNIX platform that run just fine, with more accounts than pac bell. <<<

PacBell has about 850,000 DSL users now and expect that to increase to 1.5 million in 2001. Not exactly a tiny user base to start out with. And that is only in California.

Plus PB has dial-up customers (a really lose connection system). They also do IDSL for those unfortunates who do not qualify for fast DSL in their area.

What really sucks is the SBC company :disgust: that now owns PacBell and a few other Bell's around the country and each one that SBC bought and took over the service went downhill rapidly as they fired or got rid of all their experienced techs. I got about 8 inexperienced kid techs with maybe two weeks training who failed to install DSL for me. I installed it myself, as mentioned before, on another computer.

JohnL

 

[UnixFreak]

Exactly, and how do those problems relate to the UNIX operating system. Last time I checked, The OS wasnt responsible for hiring/firing personell, training or other management responsibilities, but It may be implemented in the next kernel update.

 

[Mal007colm]

This is great I learn alot this way. Didn't mean to start all the controversy I just hate the BSOD on my WinME machie and Like i said I dont have the same problem on my Win2k machine. I think I will try a Dual boot and see what I get. I currently have Redhat 7, ManDrake 7.2, Caldera EZ desktop 2.4, FreeBSD and Beos. Which one shold I try. I heard Redhat is the easiest to install.

 

[Isaiah]

I have ManDrake 7.2 and it is really easy to install I would go with ManDrake 7.2

 

[UnixFreak]

Really, most distros are as easy as any OS to install. I think Corel is the easiest, really plug and play, but rh is a close second, the trade off is RH has more power over the configuration, but you have to know what you want. But Generally, they are all fairly easy to install, if you are fairly knowledgeable.

 

[johnlog]

CommadorFreak,

PacBell uses Cisco UNIX servers is how it applies to this thread.

PB DSL was impaired again in the Fresno area for a few days last week. More UNIX down time.

JohnL

 

[Trifecta]

so very sad...

trying to get the average computer user to run linux is like asking a 4year old to operate an excavator.

TRUE: Linux is a very stable os. Mainly due to the seperation of the components of the operating system from the kernel.

However, linux is &quot;saved&quot; from the crappy job of drivers for hardware that so many companies put out.

Everyone always assumes that BSOD result from the OS, when in fact, about 90 percent of the time there is a faulty peice of hardware or a poorly written driver to blame.

case in point: if I can run windows 2k, and win9x for 7-8 months at a time without a single shutdown, then obviously I have a stable os.

Linux is rediculous. A free operating system? Where is the market driven approach? How can they possible figure out what CONSUMERS need? If anyone wants to make money, they must produce what makes money. Linix does not make enough money. PERIOD.

MS does their fair share of poor business practices, but wake up!

Do you know how many people that MS employs in order to create documentation, test the software and provide fantastic features so that software developers have a rich set of tools to make software?!!?!?!?

The world does not begin and end with C++

Case in point: Internet Explorer is created with the explicit end goal of creating a platform for developers. not JUST for people to look at web pages. AND just try and develop for Netscape! what a pile of DUNG! I cant believe you people use that sick peice of junk ! needless to say, I HATE netscape...

Windows has their fair share of problems, but Ive been around at MS, Ive seen the people working their BUTTS off to create the best experience possible. It seems to me that they work so hard at making the OS as feature rich as possible without restricting developers. And this is why the OS has its greatest success and its biggest failure. But, if MS restricted development then you would just have another Macintosh on your desk with a putrid array of upgrade possibilities...

 

[johnlog]

Trifecta,

Thank you for your comments on why Microsoft Windows has become the world standard we compute by today.

We all know nothing is tatally perfect but with Windows we have the best there is available for the daily hard work we all may have to do on our computers. We do more than just play games with our computers as some seem to be doing.

The Linux minority likes to jump onto all the public forums and those same persons are polluting every forum they can get onto and push their Linux. To the point it seemingly appears as though there are more persons running Liny than there really are.

I am happily running Win 98 SE and Win ME computers and let those Liny persons keep on fiddling with how to make Liny work with Windows style hardware.

Have a good day.

JohnL

 

[UnixFreak]

<< trying to get the average computer user to run linux is like asking a 4year old to operate an excavator. >>



True. But Just because someone is not smart enough to operate it, does not mean it is unstable. I cannot operate an excavator myself, but I see that they work.



<< Linux is rediculous. A free operating system? Where is the market driven approach? How can they possible figure out what CONSUMERS need? If anyone wants to make money, they must produce what makes money. Linix does not make enough money. PERIOD. >>



Thats why many of us linux users are tired of microsoft. We have spent too much money. With nothing good to show for it.




<< Windows has their fair share of problems, but Ive been around at MS, Ive seen the people working their BUTTS off to create the best experience possible. It seems to me that they work so hard at making the OS as feature rich as possible without restricting developers. And this is why the OS has its greatest success and its biggest failure. But, if MS restricted development then you would just have another Macintosh on your desk with a putrid array of upgrade possibilities... >>




And what do you have now? Open source? power over the Hardware? Nuff said. People should be given the choice to make the changes they need to make, if they feel confident to do it, and why not leave that option to the consumer? Instead, Winx Systems tell you what you want, they tell you whats best, even if it is not. I am not saying that microsoft programmers are not hard workers, or intellegent, completely the opposite, but they are held back by a legacy standard, and a foundation that was inefficient to begin with. What happens when MS programmers try to go out of the normal track and change things? Micheal Abrash is a good example (WinOS loading in seven seconds, anyone?) of what happens when you try to break tradition at microsoft. I am proud to be a part of the revolution, a little homemade OS thats starting to give MS a run for their money.

 

[Trifecta]

hahaha....

excellent points

However, your logic jumped off track...

Excavators work, yes. Excavators do not work with 4 yr olds operating them

it is a commonly known fact that opening up too many choices for users to configure their systems are excatly what makes users most frustrated.

Users (the average consumer, that is...) want a computer that simply turns on and handles their browse requests and plays games when they are not writing a Christmas letter or filing their tax returns. Businesses have many options, and can afford to pay a bunch of techs to configure systems.

MS wants people to see the same screen and have the same functionality without too many choices. Too many choices causes confusion, and creates frustration in the user.

Do you know what usablity studies are? in most usability studies, Linux gives people absolute fits of rage. Win9x systems have performed admirably and Mac is about the only thing that makes people pretty happy in general.

There is soooo much work to be done in the operating system paradigm, its a huge waste of time IMO to be spending all this time developing Linux when desktop OSes are doomed anyways...

MS already has made some serious move because of this fact...

 

[UnixFreak]

I still think the Desktop OS will survive, at least for a while, and really, its not a waste of time, really, right now its all we have, no matter what buggy new paradigm microsoft tries to create. They already own the blue-screen era, the best they can do will be to change the color for the new generation.. hee hee I am just not impressed by thier new ideas anymore. They need to focus on stability and functionality, and maybe speed, a little more, before working on new &quot;features&quot;.. Just my free opinion, you get what you pay for...

 

[Phil21]

Not to join the battle..

But what the hell is &quot;Cisco Unix servers&quot; ?

Cisco has their own OS. It is very un-unix-like. Attributing a router crash to linux is like saying the airplane crashed because you drove a blue sedan to the airport. Thats right, it makes no sense. Two completely unrelated things.


If PacBell can't maintain a stable network, I would suggest they either invest in some more experienced cisco/network guys, get some more/better bandwidth between hops, and perhaps pony up a bit of money to upgrade continually crashing routers. How this entered the discussion I do not know, but it's so irrelevent I thought I'd say something.

-Phil

 

[UnixFreak]

lovin you, phil. I noticed this also, but his replies were getting a bit childish, so I thought I'd Ignore him for a bit, the fact is, you cant blame Unix (or linux) for pac bells problems, I tried explaining that also, just as you cant put 100% blame on the OS on a microsoft network, either, you have to consider adminstration. A good adminstrator, with a good team, can make a MS OS based network run like a top, as well. It really is beside the point. I dont usually try to push my beliefs on people, (except for jokingly) But when someone really attacks Linux, with false or arguable statements, I am usually the first to jump in. I still think people should use what works best for them.. but if you are tired of crashing...try linux..






<< But what the hell is &quot;Cisco Unix servers&quot; ? >>



Must be a new product Linux users are too illiterate to read about.

 

[Trifecta]

speed, stability, functionality. Well, these things of course are always a consideration. Again I say to you. The Windows platform is unstable almost always due to hardware and hardware drivers. If I can run a system, and a set of servers using Win2k for months without crashing under many different strenuous situations, I would say that it is a stable platform. And being able to install a peice of software without needing 7 different additional random peices of software is pretty darn nice.

<< They already own the blue-screen era, the best they can do will be to change the color for the new generation >>

Look, there wouldnt even be a computer generation if it werent for MS. They brought the idea of &quot;you all need computers&quot; to the mass public. Thus giving half of all you *nix geeks jobs. If windows, and the way that it was developed, never happened, computers would still be for geeks and dweebs (myself included) The perception has been changed. Mostly due to MS. You should all be thanking bill instead of always ripping on him.

And what do you *nix morons want from MS? Fair business practices? Truth in Advertising?

Sheesh...go back to the 4-yr olds and the playgrounds...

MS is a winner. The proof is in the REVENUE....

And the desktop paradigm IS currently failing. As is evidence in the putrid computer sales. New users demand a more intuitive interface with less work and more features. Linux offers the exact opposite of what draws in new customers. More work, less features, poor software...

The desktop appeals to NO ONE. Shoot I have been using computers for over 20yrs, I never liked the desktop, and I still dont. I cant wait for something more powerful. It would give a reason for people to buy those P3 900+ chips...

Sheesh, *nix users like to brag about how their 486 runs so sweet with Linux...

Well I can also ride mountain bike trails on a shwinn cruiser, but what in the world would I want to live in the past for? Keep technology moving by keeping the demand high. If people were satisfied with so little, and all they could do is brag about how they never crash, but still only have 3 solid games to play, then where would we be?

As I have always said with *nix, KEEP IT UNDER THE GROUND AND IN THE BACKBONE.

 

[UnixFreak]

<< The proof is in the REVENUE.... >>



Brilliant Argument. Ford Aerostars sold like hot cakes in their time, too, and now they make auto mechanics rich.



<< And what do you *nix morons want from MS? Fair business practices? Truth in Advertising? >>



Most *nix users Dont care, we arent getting ripped off anymore.



<< Linux offers the exact opposite of what draws in new customers. More work, less features, poor software... >>



It may not draw in morons like you, who cannot operate it, and who are you to say it is poor software? have you used it? If not, you have no room to talk. If you have, that just proves you arent smart
enough to operate it. Millions use it everyday without a problem.
Do you write code? You probably dont know what that is, therefore you
have no right to call it poor software, unless you could write better.



<< Sheesh, *nix users like to brag about how their 486 runs so sweet with Linux... >>



And Windows users brag about how theirs &quot;doesnt crash that much&quot;

They Will Keep it on the backbone, its been running it for years, and no MS OS could handle it anyway..

 

[Trifecta]

touche obiwan

yes I code. and I love the incredible tools that MS offers. C# is probably the best language I have ever come across...

As for keeping it in the backbone, It will only be there as long as people NEED it to be there. And the growing numbers point to MS. and, hopefully Apple.

I must again reiterate with your own argument. People did buy those Areostars. Knowing full well what they were getting into (warranties speak volumes)

Making mechanics rich? Kinda like making system admins rich. If MS keeps pushing technology, there will be no need for admins (and that means half of you *nix freaks)

Yes, I did use Linux (Turbo, RedHat, and *UG* Corel *blech*)

Just for kicks I tried to get Quake 3 going...That was a joke. And I ended up with 40 fps. On windows 98 I get over 100fps.

Not that people need the speed, but it shows you where MS is putting their programming power. New Features to attract developers to get more products to produce more jobs to make more money for this great new economy.

Please tell me a way in which Unix and the like do this (besides simply holding up the monolith they didnt make)

 

[UnixFreak]

<< If MS keeps pushing technology, >>



and how are they pushing technology? by putting out slow, buggy software that is so ineffecient you have to upgrade your system just to run it. I can run the brand new RH7 on my pentium 100 with 8 megs of ram, could I do that with win2k?




<< Making mechanics rich? Kinda like making system admins rich. If MS keeps pushing technology, there will be no need for admins (and that means half of you *nix freaks) >>



Microsoft has been telling us how good it is going to be, exactly when does this BS materialize?? They have been telling us for years how great it will be, so why spend our money now?

There will always be a need for men to run the machines. BTW, on one hand, you say
Microsoft is great because it creates jobs:



<< Not that people need the speed, but it shows you where MS is putting their programming power. New Features to attract developers to get more products to produce more jobs to make more money for this great new economy. >>



and, on the other hand, they are great because they eliminate them:



<< If MS keeps pushing technology, there will be no need for admins (and that means half of you *nix freaks) >>



which side of the fence are you on? either I am misunderstanding you, or you dont know what you are talking about. Take a poll.



<< Please tell me a way in which Unix and the like do this (besides simply holding up the monolith they didnt make) >>



The growing market for Linux Admins and techs cannot be denied, the stats will prove you wrong. Even Microsoft is recruiting them as we speak Sorry, had to put that in.

BTW You will have to tell me about this new C# programming language, I have never heard of it. Then again I cant read. LMFAO.

Moron.

 

[UnixFreak]

is it pronounced C-sharp or C-pound? Just Curious. Couldnt find it on the net either.

 

[Trifecta]

C-sharp

the thing about C# is, everything is a method...

C# seems to me to take all that is good about c++ and Visual Basic (which has horrid syntax, but does the job) and makes a complete object oriented language...

try these links:

http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/press/2000/jun00/CSharpPR.asp

and for .NET

http://www.microsoft.com/net/default.asp

Honestly, I do not subscribe to the belief that Windows is a &quot;perfect&quot; OS. But because of windows, I have millions and millions of customers. The complaint that I have about Linux (and all computer-related technologies) is the lack of standards.

And for better or worse, MS has limited standards, enabling developers to simply move forward and develop the product. In all aspects of life there is a good way to do something (Macintosh) , an ideal way to do something (Linux) and the way something actually gets done (Windows).

And while there are many things that can be done sufficiently with Linux, Perl and C. There are simply too many limitations with those things alone. As far as I can see, Windows has always pushed their SDKs into areas that have never been explored.

For that reason, I truly believe that MS has built the new economy amidst the whiners and losers like Netscape. But this is how business gets done in this economy. And MS has successfully gobbled up what was once Netscapes domain because of an excellent product. And that is from someone who needs to develop web pages, regardless of the end users application. IE just works. consistently. And for the life of me, I have more problems trying to get something to look good on Netscape 6 than you can possibly imagine.