News Boeing used to be good, but these days they deliver trash

[crashtech]

@senseamp , thanks for the well wishes!

 

[senseamp]

I think if it's fixable, they will probably fix it. My concern is if it's a fundamental problem, it's in almost everyone's interest to just try to reduce the likelihood as much as possible, pretend everything is fixed, and write off an occasional crash as cost of doing business. Boeing really doesn't want to go without being able to sell single isle jet for a decade, airlines really don't want to be forced to buy Airbuses at monopoly prices with tariffs to boot, FAA really doesn't want to hurt US industry and hand this market segment over to the Europeans, and hurt their own employment prospects on the other side of the revolving door. Even consumers really don't want to have fewer flight choices and higher prices as result of less competition due to plane supply constraints. If they can get it down to MCAS killing a plane full of people every couple years instead of a couple times a year, I think there is strong incentive all around to just let it slide.

 

[crashtech]

The silly part is that MCAS is totally UNnecessary for the aircraft itself, it was only included to retain its type rating, which reduces pilot training costs immensely. Many other aircraft have inherent pitch-up tendencies under certain conditions, and it's just a given of particular aircraft types. Another thing is that domestically, these accidents very likely would have never occurred, because US 737 pilots are well trained in how to deal with runaway stab trim conditions as part of regular training. It's an important thing to be trained in because runaway trim can crash any aircraft, not just the MAX. Overseas, there's been a lot of pressure to put poorly trained pilots in the air who simply do not have the experience to recognize and deal with problems like this. Despite all the distraction in the cockpit, if a pilot sees the stab trim wheels going nuts, it's very basic airmanship that the cutout switches need to be used.

 

[UNCjigga]

Whether or not they are talking about a simulator in those pilot text messages, they are definitely talking about pulling one over on the FAA regulators.

 

[Bitek]

Would not, theoretically, workers sitting on the corporate boards as some Dem candidates suggest improve the situation somewhat? Most US corporate boards are full of cronies from adjacent industries who provide little actual guidance or oversight in the running of said corporation and just all vote each other's executives absurd comp packages even if they fail. Some European nations (notably Germany, France, and the Nordic countries) require this.

It could I suppose, depending on how it was implemented. I can't say I know enough about what they are proposing exactly in this space.

Otoh, I work for a global company, and we have sister sites in Germany, and they can be a real pain in the ass to deal with. They have a workers council that has an incredible amount of power over making any changes regarding employees and their roles. The net effect is that they are very unresponsive to changes and lack agility. I have also spoken with Brits in similar industries that also have factories in Germany and they experience the same thing.

Unfortunately, because they are not adaptable, it makes them uncompetitive and sluggish, and both of us are looking at how to move work out of DE because it's hurting the company overall. Good for us as it means some of that work comes to the US.

There is strong merit to the US system that is far more dynamic and entrepreneurial, but more needs to be done to soften the rough edges of capitalism without losing the dynamism. I guarantee the Chinese will be waiting to pick up any fumbles.

 

[ivwshane]

Except Boeing is not a monopoly and has a competitor that's just as big, just as powerful and that fights them for every contract.

And THAT appears to be more to blame here than claim of bloat or laziness caused by lack of competition. Boeing is a big company with a hugely expensive workforce and is under constant pressure to get contracts by being the low bidder. Their troubles smell a hell of a lot more like cutting corners to reduce costs and meet bid prices than it does of them being apathetic because they don't have a strong competitor.

It smells more like rotten management to me.

When you have multiple employees talking shit about the products they make, it’s usually not because they hate the company but because they are concerned about the company. When you have system wide issues it’s not the fault of the employees, after all I’m guessing these employees have been there for a long time and it’s doubtful that a lot of the employees quality of work just started going down hill at the same time. No, instead it’s a symptom of bad management.

 

[OccamsToothbrush]

It smells more like rotten management to me.

When you have multiple employees talking shit about the products they make, it’s usually not because they hate the company but because they are concerned about the company. When you have system wide issues it’s not the fault of the employees, after all I’m guessing these employees have been there for a long time and it’s doubtful that a lot of the employees quality of work just started going down hill at the same time. No, instead it’s a symptom of bad management.

I agree bad management is part of it. Good management would get rid of lazy, incompetent, malcontent workers who bitch about having a high paying job in tech and replace them with somebody that actually wants a job.

But you're still not seeing the big picture which leads me to believe that you've never run a business or even a tiny department within a business. Management rarely loses its mind overnight. The things employees bitch about are the things that are bad for the employees, rarely the things that are bad for the business itself and the things that management must do for the business are often bad for the employees. If you're in a field like that where the life of the company depends on big contracts and is subject to huge swings up and down the management has to earn the contracts or the employees are out the door. Surely you understand that, yes? Good.

So what does the management have to do to get those contracts? They have to reduce costs, improve efficiency, streamline operations, etc etc etc. Take away free coffee, employees bitch and blame "bad management". Increase the roles of robots in manufacturing and replace inefficient workers, employees bitch about "bad management". Decrease the skyrocketing cost of health care by passing along some of that cost to the employees and the employees bitch about "bad management". Need me to go on or do you get it?

In many, many many cases what management has to do to keep the employees employed pisses off the employees. The crying of employees is 99.999% "GIMME! GIMME!! GIMME!!!!!!" when it should be "I need this job, do what is necessary to keep the business open". If the employees are so unhappy, feel so put upon, unappreciated and distrustful of management let them put their money where their mouth is and walk out to get a higher paying, better job somewhere else with better management. Let's see how many of them take that option.

 

[hal2kilo]

They were preparing to move away from the 737 airframe when Airbus sold 100 A320 NEO's (new engine options) to United. Boeing didn't want to see that many sales lost so they modified the 737 with a much more efficient engines. Problem is the 737 is too low to the ground for these much bigger engines so they were forced to mount them much further forward which resulted in a tendency for the nose to pitch up so they created the MCAS system to counter for it. Them they only fed this system with one sensor, ( huge mistake in such a critical system) because using 2 or more meant the plane would be reclassified and pilots would need expensive training for the new "type". By using only one sensor the training will only be a 45 minute Ipad session so the airlines were all in on it, don't think they knew about MCAS at all and it's almost criminal IMO to not have pilots know about it, or how it operates. Boeing's excuse was "we didn't want to overburden the pilots" is complete hogwash too.

The big issue is they also thought they would cut a fat pig by saving the cost of having to recertify a new air frame.

 

[hal2kilo]

Angles and dangles are always fun!

Even that first dive to test depth after a shipyard. Nothing like a little excitement as the hull creaks and pops as you look around for leaks.

Good times that I won't miss anymore. Amazing since I was never in the Navy.

 

[ivwshane]

I agree bad management is part of it. Good management would get rid of lazy, incompetent, malcontent workers who bitch about having a high paying job in tech and replace them with somebody that actually wants a job.

But you're still not seeing the big picture which leads me to believe that you've never run a business or even a tiny department within a business. Management rarely loses its mind overnight. The things employees bitch about are the things that are bad for the employees, rarely the things that are bad for the business itself and the things that management must do for the business are often bad for the employees. If you're in a field like that where the life of the company depends on big contracts and is subject to huge swings up and down the management has to earn the contracts or the employees are out the door. Surely you understand that, yes? Good.

So what does the management have to do to get those contracts? They have to reduce costs, improve efficiency, streamline operations, etc etc etc. Take away free coffee, employees bitch and blame "bad management". Increase the roles of robots in manufacturing and replace inefficient workers, employees bitch about "bad management". Decrease the skyrocketing cost of health care by passing along some of that cost to the employees and the employees bitch about "bad management". Need me to go on or do you get it?

In many, many many cases what management has to do to keep the employees employed pisses off the employees. The crying of employees is 99.999% "GIMME! GIMME!! GIMME!!!!!!" when it should be "I need this job, do what is necessary to keep the business open". If the employees are so unhappy, feel so put upon, unappreciated and distrustfu of management let them put their money where their mouth is and walk out to get a higher paying, better job somewhere else with better management. Let's see how many of them take that option.

Yeah no.

The employees aren’t bitching about treatment or anti employee sentiment, they are bitching about process, quality, quality control.

A good management team not only pushes their employees to maximize efficiency while maintaining quality, customer service, and profit margin standards, but they also make sure their employees have the resources necessary to obtain those goals.

One or two bad employees means you have a couple of rotten eggs, if all or most of your employees are bad, then you’ve got a fucked up hen and swapping out employees isn’t going to solve the problem.

 

[ivwshane]

The big issue is they also thought they would cut a fat pig by saving the cost of having to recertify a new air frame.

Well that’s just a symptom of lazy employees. /eye roll

 

[Victorian Gray]

I agree bad management is part of it. Good management would get rid of lazy, incompetent, malcontent workers who bitch about having a high paying job in tech and replace them with somebody that actually wants a job.

But you're still not seeing the big picture which leads me to believe that you've never run a business or even a tiny department within a business. Management rarely loses its mind overnight. The things employees bitch about are the things that are bad for the employees, rarely the things that are bad for the business itself and the things that management must do for the business are often bad for the employees. If you're in a field like that where the life of the company depends on big contracts and is subject to huge swings up and down the management has to earn the contracts or the employees are out the door. Surely you understand that, yes? Good.

So what does the management have to do to get those contracts? They have to reduce costs, improve efficiency, streamline operations, etc etc etc. Take away free coffee, employees bitch and blame "bad management". Increase the roles of robots in manufacturing and replace inefficient workers, employees bitch about "bad management". Decrease the skyrocketing cost of health care by passing along some of that cost to the employees and the employees bitch about "bad management". Need me to go on or do you get it?

In many, many many cases what management has to do to keep the employees employed pisses off the employees. The crying of employees is 99.999% "GIMME! GIMME!! GIMME!!!!!!" when it should be "I need this job, do what is necessary to keep the business open". If the employees are so unhappy, feel so put upon, unappreciated and distrustful of management let them put their money where their mouth is and walk out to get a higher paying, better job somewhere else with better management. Let's see how many of them take that option.

Do you work for the company in some kind of public relations job?

 

[pcgeek11]

Good times that I won't miss anymore. Amazing since I was never in the Navy.

My wife went out with us on a dependents cruise and we did some angles and dangles. She also got to take the helm for 20 minutes and drive the boat around. She really enjoyed it and it helped her understand what I did for a living.

I'd go back in a minute if I could. Just not with the modern Navy, too much BS for me.

 

[Paratus]

I agree bad management is part of it. Good management would get rid of lazy, incompetent, malcontent workers who bitch about having a high paying job in tech and replace them with somebody that actually wants a job.

But you're still not seeing the big picture which leads me to believe that you've never run a business or even a tiny department within a business. Management rarely loses its mind overnight. The things employees bitch about are the things that are bad for the employees, rarely the things that are bad for the business itself and the things that management must do for the business are often bad for the employees. If you're in a field like that where the life of the company depends on big contracts and is subject to huge swings up and down the management has to earn the contracts or the employees are out the door. Surely you understand that, yes? Good.

So what does the management have to do to get those contracts? They have to reduce costs, improve efficiency, streamline operations, etc etc etc. Take away free coffee, employees bitch and blame "bad management". Increase the roles of robots in manufacturing and replace inefficient workers, employees bitch about "bad management". Decrease the skyrocketing cost of health care by passing along some of that cost to the employees and the employees bitch about "bad management". Need me to go on or do you get it?

In many, many many cases what management has to do to keep the employees employed pisses off the employees. The crying of employees is 99.999% "GIMME! GIMME!! GIMME!!!!!!" when it should be "I need this job, do what is necessary to keep the business open". If the employees are so unhappy, feel so put upon, unappreciated and distrustful of management let them put their money where their mouth is and walk out to get a higher paying, better job somewhere else with better management. Let's see how many of them take that option.

No this is an absolute failure by management. These failures are almost always caused by a desire to meet budget and schedule.

The MCAS design is obviously a 0 fault tolerant design with its reliance on a single AoA sensor. 0 fault tolerant designs are basically unacceptable for systems that can produce catastrophic (loss of life, $$$ in damages, etc) failures. MCAS as implemented reportedly could move the stabilizer 4X the amount in the original design.

These changes were made to keep the MAX flying like a regular 737NG so the customers wouldn’t need recertifications for their pilots.

The Boeing internal safety process failed to catch the catastrophic nature of the design. That’s a management problem as the safety process is setup under managements direction.

The FAA also didn’t catch this in part due to a push by industry to reduce and streamline oversight. Again a management goal to help meet budget and schedule.

All of these management decisions means management accepted much more risk than they were aware of and it bit them in the ass.

Hopefully you don’t work in management in an industry which can cause catastrophic failures if you don’t understand the lessons learned here.

 

[hal2kilo]

Just on local news (Seattle), Kevin McAllister is out as CEO of Boeing Commercial aircraft division.

 

[ivwshane]

Just on local news (Seattle), Kevin McAllister is out as CEO of Boeing Commercial aircraft division.

What about the lazy employees?

 

[JSt0rm]

I agree bad management is part of it. Good management would get rid of lazy, incompetent, malcontent workers who bitch about having a high paying job in tech and replace them with somebody that actually wants a job.

But you're still not seeing the big picture which leads me to believe that you've never run a business or even a tiny department within a business. Management rarely loses its mind overnight. The things employees bitch about are the things that are bad for the employees, rarely the things that are bad for the business itself and the things that management must do for the business are often bad for the employees. If you're in a field like that where the life of the company depends on big contracts and is subject to huge swings up and down the management has to earn the contracts or the employees are out the door. Surely you understand that, yes? Good.

So what does the management have to do to get those contracts? They have to reduce costs, improve efficiency, streamline operations, etc etc etc. Take away free coffee, employees bitch and blame "bad management". Increase the roles of robots in manufacturing and replace inefficient workers, employees bitch about "bad management". Decrease the skyrocketing cost of health care by passing along some of that cost to the employees and the employees bitch about "bad management". Need me to go on or do you get it?

In many, many many cases what management has to do to keep the employees employed pisses off the employees. The crying of employees is 99.999% "GIMME! GIMME!! GIMME!!!!!!" when it should be "I need this job, do what is necessary to keep the business open". If the employees are so unhappy, feel so put upon, unappreciated and distrustful of management let them put their money where their mouth is and walk out to get a higher paying, better job somewhere else with better management. Let's see how many of them take that option.

so capitalism is bad? If only Boeing was a monopoly?

 

[hal2kilo]

Hearings on air now. CEO getting grilled pretty hard as he deserves. Wondering why he claims he only saw the emails from the engineers 2 weeks ago discussing whether they may have lied to regulators. Seems in the simulator heading for final approach that the plane was cycling the nose down even after corrections.

 

[crashtech]

It was never clear to me whether the pilots thought the flaw was just in the simulator rendition of the Max or if it represented something wrong with the aircraft itself.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Just on local news (Seattle), Kevin McAllister is out as CEO of Boeing Commercial aircraft division.

Bet he was thinking "if those mother fuckers ever leave me at home again, they'll really be sorry!"

Poor taste, yes. I'll see myself out.

 

[crashtech]

A Senate grilling with family members of victims in attendance is where an exceptional CEO can earn his pay. I know it is not anything I could do. Unfortunately, McAllister did not appear to earn his pay today.

 

[hal2kilo]

It smells more like rotten management to me.

When you have multiple employees talking shit about the products they make, it’s usually not because they hate the company but because they are concerned about the company. When you have system wide issues it’s not the fault of the employees, after all I’m guessing these employees have been there for a long time and it’s doubtful that a lot of the employees quality of work just started going down hill at the same time. No, instead it’s a symptom of bad management.

The place did not get the nickname "The lazy B" for nothing. Maybe it's only an inside Seattle area joke.

 

[ivwshane]

The place did not get the nickname "The lazy B" for nothing. Maybe it's only an inside Seattle area joke.

Bad management doesn’t manage out bad employees, they simply shuffle them around.

 

[hal2kilo]

My wife went out with us on a dependents cruise and we did some angles and dangles. She also got to take the helm for 20 minutes and drive the boat around. She really enjoyed it and it helped her understand what I did for a living.

I'd go back in a minute if I could. Just not with the modern Navy, too much BS for me.

My most favorite memory is going out on a sea trial, one of the officers asked me if I wanted to go up to the sail. We were on the surface heading into the sunset going down the Straight of Juan de Fuca. It's amazing something so massive quietly plowing over the surface of the water.

 

[cirrrocco]

Stock is in the shitter the past month. had previously loaded up on some stocks at 345 but crap. never ending butthole that the poop leads to.

I know it's callous talking about making money when lives are at stake, but hopefully they provide a better product and like the CEO said, make it the safest plane ever to fly.