Boeing vs. the Union (and the NLRB)

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
no, it's cultural. japanese culture preaches respect for others.

lose your wallet anywhere in Japan and you will find it intact, with all belongings including cash and cc's inside.

in america, some people will loot and pillage if given the slightest opportunity (katrina, LA riots after sporting events).

How does that explain how well they get American workers to work?
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
How does that explain how well they get American workers to work?

If you listened to the radio show, you'd find out that the workers hired by Toyota got to go to Japan to see how they do things. GM supposedly tried to implement the changes to their other plants and the changes were pushed back from both the workers and middle-level management.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
If you listened to the radio show, you'd find out that the workers hired by Toyota got to go to Japan to see how they do things. GM supposedly tried to implement the changes to their other plants and the changes were pushed back from both the workers and middle-level management.

Heh. They never understood how Japanese management works in the first place- it won't fit in their heads because of all the other crap that's in there- so their chances of implementing something they couldn't comprehend were zero.

We *tried*, we really did, honest... and it's obviously somebody else's fault that *we failed*, right?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Heh. They never understood how Japanese management works in the first place- it won't fit in their heads because of all the other crap that's in there- so their chances of implementing something they couldn't comprehend were zero.

We *tried*, we really did, honest... and it's obviously somebody else's fault that *we failed*, right?

Japans highest paid CEO's make around 1 million a year...whole culture is vastly different, a team culture - while USA is every man for himself to a large degree.

Union labor has this ethos
Management has this ethos

I don't know how you repair it but it's definitely a cultural problem hurting our competitiveness.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Japans highest paid CEO's make around 1 million a year...whole culture is vastly different, a team culture - while USA is every man for himself to a large degree.

Union labor has this ethos
Management has this ethos

I don't know how you repair it but it's definitely a cultural problem hurting our competitiveness.

Toyota has demonstrated that American labor, even union labor, has the capacity to change.

GM has demonstrated that American management really doesn't.

The biggest reason that Japanese automakers have avoided unionization in their American plants isn't about plant location or active union suppression so much as it is about the way they treat workers. Their workers have high job satisfaction & see little reason to unionize.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Japans highest paid CEO's make around 1 million a year...whole culture is vastly different, a team culture - while USA is every man for himself to a large degree.

Union labor has this ethos
Management has this ethos

I don't know how you repair it but it's definitely a cultural problem hurting our competitiveness.

America has a cultural problem alright, I call it the high cost of mangement.
 

dmw16

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2000
7,608
0
0
I was talking about mechanics, if you think anyone off the street can work aero-structures and systems you have never worked in Aerospace. I work at a facility with thousands of mechanics and there is a massive difference between the experienced and inexperienced.

Boeing engineers are Union as a matter of fact, so are many of their largest suppliers' engineers. There also isn't a vast pool of experienced aerospace engineers just sitting around SC waiting for Boeing to decide to build a facility.

Reading this makes me believe that what you don't know about the aerospace industry could probably fill Boeing's new facility.

First off, there is a lot of aerospace talent in that part of the country. Leer, Cesna, FalconJet, and their sub-tier suppliers operate in that region of the country. Along with plenty of engineers there are also skilled mechanics and other operators that are available.

Beyond that, it is possible to draw people from other parts of the country to work there. Especially from the auto industry. Many of the same practices and principals apply to the aerospace industry when it comes to manufacturing. There is a lot of benchmarking done between the two industries. For instance, Sikorsky Aircraft has been working with Porsche to capture Porsche's best practices are they pertain to building semi-custom complex assemblies (cars and helicopters in this case).
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Reading this makes me believe that what you don't know about the aerospace industry could probably fill Boeing's new facility.

First off, there is a lot of aerospace talent in that part of the country. Leer, Cesna, FalconJet, and their sub-tier suppliers operate in that region of the country. Along with plenty of engineers there are also skilled mechanics and other operators that are available.

Beyond that, it is possible to draw people from other parts of the country to work there. Especially from the auto industry. Many of the same practices and principals apply to the aerospace industry when it comes to manufacturing. There is a lot of benchmarking done between the two industries. For instance, Sikorsky Aircraft has been working with Porsche to capture Porsche's best practices are they pertain to building semi-custom complex assemblies (cars and helicopters in this case).

You mean Learjet, Cessna and Falcon (Or Dassault Falcon Jet Corp, if you want to get technical)? Next time you want to question my knowledge of my industry, maybe you should actually spell the company names correctly.

Furthermore, neither Learjet, Cessna or Falcon have major facilities in the Carolinas, at least according to their own websites (linked).

I won't even get into comparing the auto industry to aerospace, except to say experience in one, while good, is nothing compared to direct experience in the other.

At my current employer they recently moved a lot of mechanics from a shop to an actual dock. Even though all of these guys had over a decade at the company working on aviation parts, were all trained and certified A&P mechanics, all had gone through extensive familiarization classes with the aircraft their lack of experience working the airframe showed immediately in speed and amount of rework.

Anyways, I don't really feel the need to get into a pissing match with you over this, considering I have years of engineering experience in the industry and have direct contact with certified aircraft mechanics daily and you obviously do not.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Toyota has demonstrated that American labor, even union labor, has the capacity to change.

GM has demonstrated that American management really doesn't.

The biggest reason that Japanese automakers have avoided unionization in their American plants isn't about plant location or active union suppression so much as it is about the way they treat workers. Their workers have high job satisfaction & see little reason to unionize.

QFT
 

dmw16

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2000
7,608
0
0
You mean Learjet, Cessna and Falcon (Or Dassault Falcon Jet Corp, if you want to get technical)? Next time you want to question my knowledge of my industry, maybe you should actually spell the company names correctly.

Furthermore, neither Learjet, Cessna or Falcon have major facilities in the Carolinas, at least according to their own websites (linked).

I won't even get into comparing the auto industry to aerospace, except to say experience in one, while good, is nothing compared to direct experience in the other.

At my current employer they recently moved a lot of mechanics from a shop to an actual dock. Even though all of these guys had over a decade at the company working on aviation parts, were all trained and certified A&P mechanics, all had gone through extensive familiarization classes with the aircraft their lack of experience working the airframe showed immediately in speed and amount of rework.

Anyways, I don't really feel the need to get into a pissing match with you over this, considering I have years of engineering experience in the industry and have direct contact with certified aircraft mechanics daily and you obviously do not.

My apologies for the spelling - my phone isn't all that great with spell-checker.

My point wasn't to say that those companies are in the Carolinas but more to point out that the south isn't without aerospace.

I also forgot to include HondaJet which I believe is doing work in North Carolina.

I do have years of experience in the aerospace industry as an aerospace engineer working both production and development programs. But I agree; a pissing match is hardly worth anyone's time.
 
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