Bonds vs. Pujols for MVP

[ace31216]

I am so tired of everyone saying that Albert Pujols should win the MVP. It's clear that Barry Bonds is the best player in baseball.

He leads the national league in slugging, on base percentage, homers and walks. Just look at the last series when Bonds played the Phillies. Five intentional walks in 3 games! (Ridiculous). Yeah, he doesn't have as many RBI's as Pujols, but that's because no one will pitch to him if there are men in scoring position. Average wise, Pujols is higher plus he is riding a 26 game hitting streak. However, if you look at Bonds, his batting average has increased each month as the season goes on.

Even with his father's ailing health, which I am sure must effect him greatly, Bonds numbers are incredible.

Bonds is definitely MVP!

 

[Lager]

Nah, I think Pujols will win.

NL Cy Young - Russ Ortiz

NL MVP - Albert Pujols

AL Cy Young - Mark Mulder

AL MVP - Carlos Delgado

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: coldcut
Nah, I think Pujols will win.

NL Cy Young - Russ Ortiz

NL MVP - Albert Pujols

AL Cy Young - Mark Mulder

AL MVP - Carlos Delgado

Russ Ortiz? Are you on crack? He's a good pitcher, but not Cy Young caliber. I wouldn't be surprised to see Smoltz win considering he's on track to break the single-season save record this year.

 

[BigSmooth]

I don't think "everyone" is saying Pujols should win. ESPN's MLB page says "the NL MVP race is going to be close".

I think Bonds could be the best hitter I will see in my lifetime, but Pujols is having one hell of a season. He still has a decent shot at the Triple Crown, and if he gets it I don't think he could lose the MVP race.

Even if Bonds ends up having a slightly better season, it's true that people might still vote for Pujols because they have been spoiled by the numbers Bonds has put up the last few years.

 

[waylman]

WHERE'S THE POLL?

 

[BeauJangles]

I still think Bonds should win it hands down. There is no player that is better in Baseball right now. Also, think about the Giants WITHOUT Bonds. They wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now.

 

[MrDingleDangle]

i think if pujols wins the triple crown he has got to win it...



where the hell is the poll

 

[PlatinumGold]

IF the cardinals don't get in the playoffs than Bonds is gonna run away with it, tho Sheff has been pretty good, it hurts him that Lopez has been hitting so well.

IF cards to make it to the playoffs than it is a close race between bonds and pujols.

Pujols is very close to the triple crown, .370 average doesn't hurt either.

 

[Toasthead]

Its NOT, repeat NOT the BEST PLAYER AWARD. It is the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. There is a clear difference.

Bonds is the king of the solo homer and is a marginal defensive outfielder. Puljos is putting up triple crown type numbers.

Puljos .370 AVG 33 HR 105 RBI 105 R 40 K in 118 Games
Bonds .341 AVG 37 HR 77 RBI 88 R 49 K in 101 Games

I mean come one dude, How can you say Bonds is the MVP?

 

[Toasthead]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I still think Bonds should win it hands down. There is no player that is better in Baseball right now. Also, think about the Giants WITHOUT Bonds. They wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now.

Dude, you gotta quit the crack pipe. Alex Rodriguez is the BEST player in baseball. He plays the most difficult position in baseball and plays it well.

 

[pyonir]

As of right now it would be foolish to pick anyone but Roy Halladay for the AL Cy Young.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Toasthead
Its NOT, repeat NOT the BEST PLAYER AWARD. It is the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. There is a clear difference.

Bonds is the king of the solo homer and is a marginal defensive outfielder. Puljos is putting up triple crown type numbers.

Puljos .370 AVG 33 HR 105 RBI 105 R 40 K in 118 Games
Bonds .341 AVG 37 HR 77 RBI 88 R 49 K in 101 Games

I mean come one dude, How can you say Bonds is the MVP?

first of all, i do not understand why some people make such a big deal about RUNS, that is like the stupidest stat ever.

what is the difference between the best base runner and worst base runner in MLB for scoring from 1st? it's not as much about the base runner as it is about those hitting behind him.

sure steals help a little, but thats why we track steals separately, other than that, what can a base runner do to help him score a run?

2nd, as i said, just as AROD didn't win MVP's the last 3 seasons, it's NOT the best player, it's MVP on a competitive team, at the rate the Central is going, the Cards could finish anywhere between 1st in the division to as low as 4th in the division. it's pretty tight there.

if they don't win the division, there is almost NO chance that the WC will come out of the central division, hence if the cards don't win the division, it is almost automatically going to go to a player on a playoff team.

RBI's are also a function of team more than individual player, Bonds in the Cards lineup would have a lot more rbis, probably close to 100 by now. it would be harder to walk bonds in the cards lineup than in the giants lineup.

 

[Saulbadguy]

Pujols, on the fact that they must be tired of giving it to Bonds at some point. Plus I think Pujols right now is an all around better player.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
Pujols, on the fact that they must be tired of giving it to Bonds at some point. Plus I think Pujols right now is an all around better player.

agreed, pujols is having a better season than Arod, that's a pretty impressive fact, but again, without getting in the playoffs pujols chances are very very slim.

if they get in the playoffs than i think pujols chances are 50/50 if not better.

 

[Ynog]

As seen last year. A-Rods great number didn't mean as much as Tejada's clutch hits.

Now I don't think either player will run away with it.
Both Bonds and Puljos are having good years.
But there are multiple factors. And having the most homers doesn't give you the MVP.
Also Puljos has no MVP. Bonds has 5. Don't think that doesn't play a factor.

I in Puljos keeps up his hitting and finished with close to the triple crown he will win. Unless Bonds goes home run crazy
again. I still think it will be close. But there its by no means set.
And Bonds may be the best player in baseball but he might not have the best season.


As for the American league. The MVP is so up in the air right now. I would say Delgado for sure, but with
Toronto fading fast. It hurts him. I think the MVP will be seen in someone who plays very well in late August and
September.

 

[Izzo]

You gotta give it to Pujols. He's got a great shot at the triple crown. He must be doing something right.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Ynog
As seen last year. A-Rods great number didn't mean as much as Tejada's clutch hits.

Now I don't think either player will run away with it.
Both Bonds and Puljos are having good years.
But there are multiple factors. And having the most homers doesn't give you the MVP.
Also Puljos has no MVP. Bonds has 5. Don't think that doesn't play a factor.

I in Puljos keeps up his hitting and finished with close to the triple crown he will win. Unless Bonds goes home run crazy
again. I still think it will be close. But there its by no means set.
And Bonds may be the best player in baseball but he might not have the best season.


As for the American league. The MVP is so up in the air right now. I would say Delgado for sure, but with
Toronto fading fast. It hurts him. I think the MVP will be seen in someone who plays very well in late August and
September.

agreed, this year, i think the NL team will win the WS. i think more NL players and NL teams are having good seasons than the AL. AL looks very very weak to me.

Boston is the best offensive team in the AL and probably will not make the playoffs, Seattle and Oakland pitch well enough but don't have the offense to really break thru, ala the braves of the '90s.

the yankees are the best team in the AL when everyone is 100%, but i'd be really wary of the starting pitching, you don't know when clemons or wells is gonna come up lame. and mussina hasn't been as consistent as he used to be with baltimore. weird that.

 

[Ynog]

Why are runs a big deal?

Because whoever scores more of them wins. Pretty big deal. Its not the team with the most homers, doubles, triples and singles, hits or anything like that.
Its the team with the most RUNS that wins. As for ya anyone can run the bases. Thats true. And there are good baserunners and bad ones. But a good
baserunner knows how to advance on a single to right. A good baserunner can take a single and make it a double. A good baserunner will advance when
the bad baserunner either gets thrown out or doesn't advance.

As for runs are just knocked in by someone else that true as well. But you have to get on to score. The run means you have put yourself on in a position
where someone can knock you in. Tell you what your good hitter. What good is your number 3-4 hitter if the bases are always empty.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Ynog
Why are runs a big deal?

Because whoever scores more of them wins. Pretty big deal. Its not the team with the most homers, doubles, triples and singles, hits or anything like that.
Its the team with the most RUNS that wins. As for ya anyone can run the bases. Thats true. And there are good baserunners and bad ones. But a good
baserunner knows how to advance on a single to right. A good baserunner can take a single and make it a double. A good baserunner will advance when
the bad baserunner either gets thrown out or doesn't advance.

As for runs are just knocked in by someone else that true as well. But you have to get on to score. The run means you have put yourself on in a position
where someone can knock you in. Tell you what your good hitter. What good is your number 3-4 hitter if the bases are always empty.

you missed my point, i was speaking of the stat RUNS with respect to individual honors. ONCE again,

, Given say the pitcher and your top run producer, once they get on base, how much difference is there in their ability to score the run all other factors with respect to hitters behind them being equal.

let me make it simpler for you.

The pitcher hits 9th, the leadoff hitter (obviously) hits first.

inning 1 leadoff hitter gets on base.

inning 3 pitcher leads off and gets on base.

Which is more baserunner is more likely to score? well obviously it should be the lead off hitter as he is chosen for that position because of his speed, but HOW MUCH MORE likely? and is it more a function of what HE does or what the hitters BEHIND him do.

I'm willing to stake my life on the proposition that what the hitters behind him do are WAAAAAYYYYY more important than what the base runner does.

Capiche?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: pyonir
As of right now it would be foolish to pick anyone but Roy Halladay for the AL Cy Young.

Umm, didn't he get smoked by the Mariners last night? M's hitting is average at best... Cy Young should go to someone on Oakland...

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: pyonir
As of right now it would be foolish to pick anyone but Roy Halladay for the AL Cy Young.

Umm, didn't he get smoked by the Mariners last night? M's hitting is average at best... Cy Young should go to someone on Oakland...

So one game decides if a player deserves the Cy Young huh?

Halladay has a little higher of an ERA than Mulder or Hudson, but he has pitched more innings, less walks than both, more strikeouts than both, his WHIP is better than Mulder although Hudson's is a little better, record is 16-4 while Mulder is 15-8 and Hudson is 11-4, a better K/BB ratio than both, and better K/9 than both.

The race will be close towards the end, but Halladay would get my vote as of now.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: pyonir
As of right now it would be foolish to pick anyone but Roy Halladay for the AL Cy Young.

Umm, didn't he get smoked by the Mariners last night? M's hitting is average at best... Cy Young should go to someone on Oakland...

So one game decides if a player deserves the Cy Young huh?

Halladay has a little higher of an ERA than Mulder or Hudson, but he has pitched more innings, less walks than both, more strikeouts than both, his WHIP is better than Mulder although Hudson's is a little better, record is 16-4 while Mulder is 15-8 and Hudson is 11-4, a better K/BB ratio than both, and better K/9 than both.

The race will be close towards the end, but Halladay would get my vote as of now.

hmmm, so "it would be foolish to pick anyone but Roy . . . " changes to "The race will be close towards the end, but Halladay would get my vote as of now.".


i agree that holiday deserves consideration, but to say, It would be foolish itself seems foolish now doesn't it.

 

[pyonir]

It would be foolish to pick anyone but Halladay AT THIS POINT. I said the race will be close towards the end, not now. I would pick Halladay in a second, therefore it would be foolish to pick otherwise.

 

[nitsuj3580]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ynog
Why are runs a big deal?

Because whoever scores more of them wins. Pretty big deal. Its not the team with the most homers, doubles, triples and singles, hits or anything like that.
Its the team with the most RUNS that wins. As for ya anyone can run the bases. Thats true. And there are good baserunners and bad ones. But a good
baserunner knows how to advance on a single to right. A good baserunner can take a single and make it a double. A good baserunner will advance when
the bad baserunner either gets thrown out or doesn't advance.

As for runs are just knocked in by someone else that true as well. But you have to get on to score. The run means you have put yourself on in a position
where someone can knock you in. Tell you what your good hitter. What good is your number 3-4 hitter if the bases are always empty.

you missed my point, i was speaking of the stat RUNS with respect to individual honors. ONCE again,

, Given say the pitcher and your top run producer, once they get on base, how much difference is there in their ability to score the run all other factors with respect to hitters behind them being equal.

let me make it simpler for you.

The pitcher hits 9th, the leadoff hitter (obviously) hits first.

inning 1 leadoff hitter gets on base.

inning 3 pitcher leads off and gets on base.

Which is more baserunner is more likely to score? well obviously it should be the lead off hitter as he is chosen for that position because of his speed, but HOW MUCH MORE likely? and is it more a function of what HE does or what the hitters BEHIND him do.

I'm willing to stake my life on the proposition that what the hitters behind him do are WAAAAAYYYYY more important than what the base runner does.

Capiche?

uh...I have to go with Ynog on this one. Runs is a very significant stat. If you score runs that means you had to have gotten on base which is kind of crucial in baseball or you can't score.

Why do you think Bonds is the "king of solo homeruns" as someone mentioned? Because people before him in the past couple years don't get on base therefore there is no one on base for Bonds to drive in. So Bonds solo shot doesn't really hurt that much since it only counts for 1 run. It only takes a couple hits to negate his solo homerun.

If runs aren't important. How did Ichiro win the MVP award a couple years ago? Let me give you his stats. .350 BA, 242 hits, 8 HR, 69 RBI's, and 127 RUNS! He's the ideal example that a guy who gets on base puts himself in a position to score runs which is obviously very valuable considering he won an MVP award since your stuck on individual awards.

It's a team game and even though the big guys who hit bombs and drive in the runs get most of the glory you can't have an RBI guy without another guy on base to score the run. Getting on base in a game where getting a hit 3 out of every 10 at bats is exceptional is very important

Capiche?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: nitsuj3580

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ynog
Why are runs a big deal?

Because whoever scores more of them wins. Pretty big deal. Its not the team with the most homers, doubles, triples and singles, hits or anything like that.
Its the team with the most RUNS that wins. As for ya anyone can run the bases. Thats true. And there are good baserunners and bad ones. But a good
baserunner knows how to advance on a single to right. A good baserunner can take a single and make it a double. A good baserunner will advance when
the bad baserunner either gets thrown out or doesn't advance.

As for runs are just knocked in by someone else that true as well. But you have to get on to score. The run means you have put yourself on in a position
where someone can knock you in. Tell you what your good hitter. What good is your number 3-4 hitter if the bases are always empty.

you missed my point, i was speaking of the stat RUNS with respect to individual honors. ONCE again,

, Given say the pitcher and your top run producer, once they get on base, how much difference is there in their ability to score the run all other factors with respect to hitters behind them being equal.

let me make it simpler for you.

The pitcher hits 9th, the leadoff hitter (obviously) hits first.

inning 1 leadoff hitter gets on base.

inning 3 pitcher leads off and gets on base.

Which is more baserunner is more likely to score? well obviously it should be the lead off hitter as he is chosen for that position because of his speed, but HOW MUCH MORE likely? and is it more a function of what HE does or what the hitters BEHIND him do.

I'm willing to stake my life on the proposition that what the hitters behind him do are WAAAAAYYYYY more important than what the base runner does.

Capiche?

uh...I have to go with Ynog on this one. Runs is a very significant stat. If you score runs that means you had to have gotten on base which is kind of crucial in baseball or you can't score.

Why do you think Bonds is the "king of solo homeruns" as someone mentioned? Because people before him in the past couple years don't get on base therefore their is no one on base for Bonds to drive in.

If runs aren't important. How did Ichiro win the MVP award a couple years ago? Let me give you his stats. .350 BA, 242 hits, 8 HR, 69 RBI's, and 127 RUNS! He's the ideal example that a guy who gets on base puts himself in a position to score runs which is obviously very valuable considering he won an MVP award.

It's a team game and you can't have an RBI guy without another guy on base to score the run. Getting on base in a game where getting a hit 3 out of every 10 at bats is exceptional is very important

Capiche?

actually, you DIDN'T capiche.

hehehe, you crack me up.

Runs as a stat to DEFINE an INDIVIDUALS impact on the overall game. let me see if i can put it in terms so simple that even YOU could understand.

wait, i already did.

We have stats such as BA and OBP that CLEARLY cover how often a player gets on base. We have RBI that CLEARLY covers how often a Player drives a runner in. You have STEALS that clearly covers HOW much impact a runner can have on his chances of scoring.

RUNS themselves are a useless stat.