Bonds vs. Pujols for MVP

[pyonir]

Runs scored means they had someone in the lineup behind them capable of driving them in. Nothing more.

 

[MrDingleDangle]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: nitsuj3580

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ynog
Why are runs a big deal?

Because whoever scores more of them wins. Pretty big deal. Its not the team with the most homers, doubles, triples and singles, hits or anything like that.
Its the team with the most RUNS that wins. As for ya anyone can run the bases. Thats true. And there are good baserunners and bad ones. But a good
baserunner knows how to advance on a single to right. A good baserunner can take a single and make it a double. A good baserunner will advance when
the bad baserunner either gets thrown out or doesn't advance.

As for runs are just knocked in by someone else that true as well. But you have to get on to score. The run means you have put yourself on in a position
where someone can knock you in. Tell you what your good hitter. What good is your number 3-4 hitter if the bases are always empty.

you missed my point, i was speaking of the stat RUNS with respect to individual honors. ONCE again,

, Given say the pitcher and your top run producer, once they get on base, how much difference is there in their ability to score the run all other factors with respect to hitters behind them being equal.

let me make it simpler for you.

The pitcher hits 9th, the leadoff hitter (obviously) hits first.

inning 1 leadoff hitter gets on base.

inning 3 pitcher leads off and gets on base.

Which is more baserunner is more likely to score? well obviously it should be the lead off hitter as he is chosen for that position because of his speed, but HOW MUCH MORE likely? and is it more a function of what HE does or what the hitters BEHIND him do.

I'm willing to stake my life on the proposition that what the hitters behind him do are WAAAAAYYYYY more important than what the base runner does.

Capiche?

uh...I have to go with Ynog on this one. Runs is a very significant stat. If you score runs that means you had to have gotten on base which is kind of crucial in baseball or you can't score.

Why do you think Bonds is the "king of solo homeruns" as someone mentioned? Because people before him in the past couple years don't get on base therefore their is no one on base for Bonds to drive in.

If runs aren't important. How did Ichiro win the MVP award a couple years ago? Let me give you his stats. .350 BA, 242 hits, 8 HR, 69 RBI's, and 127 RUNS! He's the ideal example that a guy who gets on base puts himself in a position to score runs which is obviously very valuable considering he won an MVP award.

It's a team game and you can't have an RBI guy without another guy on base to score the run. Getting on base in a game where getting a hit 3 out of every 10 at bats is exceptional is very important

Capiche?

actually, you DIDN'T capiche.

hehehe, you crack me up.

Runs as a stat to DEFINE an INDIVIDUALS impact on the overall game. let me see if i can put it in terms so simple that even YOU could understand.

wait, i already did.

We have stats such as BA and OBP that CLEARLY cover how often a player gets on base. We have RBI that CLEARLY covers how often a Player drives a runner in. You have STEALS that clearly covers HOW much impact a runner can have on his chances of scoring.

RUNS themselves are a useless stat.

i gotta agree that runs are a very important stat...

you say rbi's are important, but u cant have an rbi without a run

 

[Ranger X]

Puljos, if you look at the numbers. It would be wrong to give the NL Cy Young to Smoltz. The closer position is so over-rated. You come in for one inning and finish the game. They get TONS more than setup men .. I say give it to a deserving starting pitcher. AL Cy Young should go to Roy Halladay, not Mark Mulder.

 

[Francodman]

Barry's teams in first, Albert's not. You take Bonds off the Giants, they're a .500 team. You take Pujols off the Cards, they're maybe aa sub .500 team. The Cards have plenty of firepower to make up (Renteriea, Rolen, Edmonds....bo hart lol)

If Tim Hudson can go on a streak of wins, then he should get the Cy young. The reason his win total is down is because of his bullpen. Look at how many wins the A's have when he pitches.

a 2.51 ERA is a lot different than a 3.35 ERA that Halladay has. It's a great feat what Halladays done don't get me wrong, but its not hard to win em all considering you're team is piling up the runs.


NL Cy young is a whole nother story. Jason Schmidts been phenomenal. Mark Priors been good too. Smoltz is having another unbelievable year, but he's a closer, closer's don't usually get cy youngs.

 

[nitsuj3580]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

actually, you DIDN'T capiche.

hehehe, you crack me up.

Runs as a stat to DEFINE an INDIVIDUALS impact on the overall game. let me see if i can put it in terms so simple that even YOU could understand.

wait, i already did.

We have stats such as BA and OBP that CLEARLY cover how often a player gets on base. We have RBI that CLEARLY covers how often a Player drives a runner in. You have STEALS that clearly covers HOW much impact a runner can have on his chances of scoring.

RUNS themselves are a useless stat.

The problem is you are taking the most basic definition of the stat. If you just see it as the guy touched homeplate X amount of times, whoopdeedoo! then your explanation almost makes sense. But scoring runs means so much more than that.

I can remember when Rickey Henderson broke the all time Runs mark a couple years ago, the ESPN guys on Baseball Tonight (most of them actually being players at one time) were talking about what a shame it is that Henderson didn't get the credit and media he should have gotten for breaking that record. They, like any person that really appreciates baseball, recognizes the significance of that statistic.

It is the accumulation of so many things a player must do before he can score a run. Getting on base, putting yourself in a position to score which DOESN'T mean just stealing bases. Being able to get a good jump off the base on a hit; being able to go from first to third on a single; being smart running the bases is extemely underrated in itself. Those are all important besides stealing to put yourself in a position to score. If none of those are accomplished, what's the guy behind him going to drive in?

You're right, players won't be DEFINED by that statistic but don't under estimate the IMPACT that INDIVIDUAL statistic means.

 

[Lem6687]

im going back to some previous posts.....

AL Cy Young? Mark Mulder? you got to be kidding me, Roy Hallady, and Esteban Loaiza are both having better years, and they are in the race.

A-rod being the best player in baseball? Well if you look at the stats right now Nomar clearly has an edge over A-rod.....

Nomar has more runs, more hits, more doubles, more triples, more RBI's, Less strike outs, and better batting average, clearly he should have started at the allstar game, but you know its all a popular vote.

 

[trulfe]

maybe if they pitched to bonds his numbers would be through the roof.

 

[nitsuj3580]

Originally posted by: Lem6687
im going back to some previous posts.....

AL Cy Young? Mark Mulder? you got to be kidding me, Roy Hallady, and Esteban Loaiza are both having better years, and they are in the race.

A-rod being the best player in baseball? Well if you look at the stats right now Nomar clearly has an edge over A-rod.....

Nomar has more runs, more hits, more doubles, more triples, more RBI's, Less strike outs, and better batting average, clearly he should have started at the allstar game, but you know its all a popular vote.

I think with the term 'best player in baseball ' one has to at least look at the past couple seasons as well as the current times. Granted Nomar is outshining A-Rod so far this season, if you had to start a franchise today and you could pick between A-rod and Nomar, who'd you pick? I know I'd pick A-Rod but definitely doesn't mean Nomar is not an awesome player himself. Both guys have revolutionized the shortstop position.

Good call on Loaiza for Cy Young. It'll come down to him or Halladay. Granted his ERA is like 3.3something that is still very good in today's game and to win 15 games in a row, he still has to keep the other team in check even if Blue Jays score a lot of runs. Hudson has also been awesome but the Wins category is going to hurt him. Definitely not his fault though.

 

[josphII]

Hudson and Loaizza are the two front runners imo for the AL Cy Young imo. Halladay's ERA is just too high (3.40) compared to Hudson's 2.64 and and Loaizza's 2.24. I suppose you can eliminate Pedra from contention given he missed 4-5 starts and you can also eliminate Mulder and Zito given they have higher ERA's, opponents batting average and WHIP compared to Hudson.

as for NL MVP Bonds is the clear choice. His OBP, OPS, and SLG are just too good not to mention he leads the league in HRs (by 3) and BBs (by 29!). His OBP is 69pts higher than the #2 guy (Helton), thats just ridiculous. Pujols may have a higher AVG but thats the only real edge he has. Given Bonds' OBP is so much higher than Pujols you cant take the fact that Pujols has scored more runs seriously, nor can you with the RBI numbers. Bonds has walked 110 times compared to 50 for Pujols. The only thing keeping this race close is the fact that Bonds missed 20 games. And the tripple crown for Pujols is a longshot now. He trails Bonds in HR's (game over) and Preston Wilson in RBI's (by 11).

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: josphII
Hudson and Loaizza are the two front runners imo for the AL Cy Young imo. Halladay's ERA is just too high (3.40) compared to Hudson's 2.64 and and Loaizza's 2.24. I suppose you can eliminate Pedra from contention given he missed 4-5 starts and you can also eliminate Mulder and Zito given they have higher ERA's, opponents batting average and WHIP compared to Hudson.

as for NL MVP Bonds is the clear choice. His OBP, OPS, and SLG are just too good not to mention he leads the league in HRs (by 3) and BBs (by 29!). His OBP is 69pts higher than the #2 guy (Helton), thats just ridiculous. Pujols may have a higher AVG but thats the only real edge he has. Given Bonds' OBP is so much higher than Pujols you cant take the fact that Pujols has scored more runs seriously, nor can you with the RBI numbers. Bonds has walked 110 times compared to 50 for Pujols. The only thing keeping this race close is the fact that Bonds missed 20 games. And the tripple crown for Pujols is a longshot now. He trails Bonds in HR's (game over) and Preston Wilson in RBI's (by 11).

as i've been saying throughout this thread. i don't see peoples infatuation with the RUNS stat. sure in little league how many runs a player scores in very very important. but on the major league level, there isn't a whole lot of difference between players as to their ability to score runs ONCE they get on base.

It's getting on BASE that is important, after that it is the hitters behind you that determine whethor or not you score.

 

[nitsuj3580]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: josphII
Hudson and Loaizza are the two front runners imo for the AL Cy Young imo. Halladay's ERA is just too high (3.40) compared to Hudson's 2.64 and and Loaizza's 2.24. I suppose you can eliminate Pedra from contention given he missed 4-5 starts and you can also eliminate Mulder and Zito given they have higher ERA's, opponents batting average and WHIP compared to Hudson.

as for NL MVP Bonds is the clear choice. His OBP, OPS, and SLG are just too good not to mention he leads the league in HRs (by 3) and BBs (by 29!). His OBP is 69pts higher than the #2 guy (Helton), thats just ridiculous. Pujols may have a higher AVG but thats the only real edge he has. Given Bonds' OBP is so much higher than Pujols you cant take the fact that Pujols has scored more runs seriously, nor can you with the RBI numbers. Bonds has walked 110 times compared to 50 for Pujols. The only thing keeping this race close is the fact that Bonds missed 20 games. And the tripple crown for Pujols is a longshot now. He trails Bonds in HR's (game over) and Preston Wilson in RBI's (by 11).

as i've been saying throughout this thread. i don't see peoples infatuation with the RUNS stat. sure in little league how many runs a player scores in very very important. but on the major league level, there isn't a whole lot of difference between players as to their ability to score runs ONCE they get on base.

It's getting on BASE that is important, after that it is the hitters behind you that determine whethor or not you score.

josphII pretty much summed it up perfect which is why I also think Bonds should win the MVP

I've never said more runs is going to make or break the MVP race or anything like that. I just have a problem with your position that Runs is the 'stupidest stat ever' as you put it. Comparing a top run producer (usually a guy like Ichiro or Henderson) who excel at getting on base to a pitcher saying they can both score a run just as easily if they have the same hitters behind them is ridiculous. Sure if the guy behind them hits it out of the park, anyone can score a run but you underestimate the signifiance of smart, aggressive base running, speed, and the fact that a player can only score a run if he gets on base as I mentioned in my previous post. It's a direct relationship.

 

[Francodman]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: josphII
Hudson and Loaizza are the two front runners imo for the AL Cy Young imo. Halladay's ERA is just too high (3.40) compared to Hudson's 2.64 and and Loaizza's 2.24. I suppose you can eliminate Pedra from contention given he missed 4-5 starts and you can also eliminate Mulder and Zito given they have higher ERA's, opponents batting average and WHIP compared to Hudson.

as for NL MVP Bonds is the clear choice. His OBP, OPS, and SLG are just too good not to mention he leads the league in HRs (by 3) and BBs (by 29!). His OBP is 69pts higher than the #2 guy (Helton), thats just ridiculous. Pujols may have a higher AVG but thats the only real edge he has. Given Bonds' OBP is so much higher than Pujols you cant take the fact that Pujols has scored more runs seriously, nor can you with the RBI numbers. Bonds has walked 110 times compared to 50 for Pujols. The only thing keeping this race close is the fact that Bonds missed 20 games. And the tripple crown for Pujols is a longshot now. He trails Bonds in HR's (game over) and Preston Wilson in RBI's (by 11).

as i've been saying throughout this thread. i don't see peoples infatuation with the RUNS stat. sure in little league how many runs a player scores in very very important. but on the major league level, there isn't a whole lot of difference between players as to their ability to score runs ONCE they get on base.

It's getting on BASE that is important, after that it is the hitters behind you that determine whethor or not you score.

What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

 

[rh71]

The Mets pitched to Bonds last night - but only when the bases were empty. Final stats ? Bonds: HR (2)

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: Francodman
What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

He is saying as an individual stat to guage a player on it is unimportant. And i agree with him.

Of course runs are an important part of baseball..but not individual players' stats.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: nitsuj3580

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: josphII
Hudson and Loaizza are the two front runners imo for the AL Cy Young imo. Halladay's ERA is just too high (3.40) compared to Hudson's 2.64 and and Loaizza's 2.24. I suppose you can eliminate Pedra from contention given he missed 4-5 starts and you can also eliminate Mulder and Zito given they have higher ERA's, opponents batting average and WHIP compared to Hudson.

as for NL MVP Bonds is the clear choice. His OBP, OPS, and SLG are just too good not to mention he leads the league in HRs (by 3) and BBs (by 29!). His OBP is 69pts higher than the #2 guy (Helton), thats just ridiculous. Pujols may have a higher AVG but thats the only real edge he has. Given Bonds' OBP is so much higher than Pujols you cant take the fact that Pujols has scored more runs seriously, nor can you with the RBI numbers. Bonds has walked 110 times compared to 50 for Pujols. The only thing keeping this race close is the fact that Bonds missed 20 games. And the tripple crown for Pujols is a longshot now. He trails Bonds in HR's (game over) and Preston Wilson in RBI's (by 11).

as i've been saying throughout this thread. i don't see peoples infatuation with the RUNS stat. sure in little league how many runs a player scores in very very important. but on the major league level, there isn't a whole lot of difference between players as to their ability to score runs ONCE they get on base.

It's getting on BASE that is important, after that it is the hitters behind you that determine whethor or not you score.

I've never said more runs is going to make or break the MVP race or anything like that. I just have a problem with your position that Runs is the 'stupidest stat ever' as you put it. Comparing a top run producer (usually a guy like Ichiro or Henderson) who excel at getting on base to a pitcher saying they can both score a run just as easily if they have the same hitters behind them is ridiculous. Sure if they guy behind them hits it out of the park, anyone can score a run but you underestimate the signifiance of smart, aggressive base running, speed, and the fact that a player can only score a run if he gets on base. It's a direct relationship.

how many times do we have to cover the same territory. AVERAGE and OBP Clearly indicate how often a player gets on base.

And yes, IT IS THE stupidest stat. ONE stat has to qualify as least significant if you put them all on a scale. and in my opinion RUNS Scored is the STUPIDEST as it's already covered in other stats.

again, you speak of Ichiro / henderson as top run producers that EXCEL at getting on base and as i've posted many many times, CLEARLY that would show in the BB, Average and OBP stats.

Ok, mb i went to far in using pitchers in my example, but it was only done to make a point. let's compare Ichiro to Bonds. lets say each get on base 100 times. given the same hitters, BA, etc behind him, who would score more runs? and how significant would that difference be??

and yes, i am talking conjecture.

again, you talk about base running, steals is a pretty good indicator of that.

and yes, i do underestimate what you call smart base running, because guess what, a good team player will allow the 3rd base coach to dictate who or how he runs.


an example of a runner making a stupid mistake by using his judgment actually cost the braves a WS.

Braves vs Twins in minnesota, Game 7, 7th inning 0 - 0. Smoltz vs real pitchers battle. Ronnie Smith is on 2nd, there is a hit DEEP to right field, Smith TAKES off, and out of the corner of his eye he sees Knoblauch fake a throw and holds up. IF he had been watching his 3rd base coach he never would have been fooled and the braves would probably have won that WS.

braves end up losing btw, in the 10th inning 1-0.

the ONLY thing runs scored might indicate is a base runners speed. but even that is already covered in steals.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: Francodman
What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

He is saying as an individual stat to guage a player on it is unimportant. And i agree with him.

Of course runs are an important part of baseball..but not individual players' stats.

thank you, at least ONE person sees it.

i can't believe how hard it is to get this point accross. i thought it would be obvious.

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: Francodman
What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

He is saying as an individual stat to guage a player on it is unimportant. And i agree with him.

Of course runs are an important part of baseball..but not individual players' stats.

thank you, at least ONE person sees it.

i can't believe how hard it is to get this point accross. i thought it would be obvious.

same here. I think they are thinking in the grand scheme of things. Yes runs are important. But if the guy leads the league in runs, but also leads in strikeouts, last in BA, last in RBI's then he shouldn't be regarded as a great player.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: Francodman
What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

He is saying as an individual stat to guage a player on it is unimportant. And i agree with him.

Of course runs are an important part of baseball..but not individual players' stats.

thank you, at least ONE person sees it.

i can't believe how hard it is to get this point accross. i thought it would be obvious.

same here. I think they are thinking in the grand scheme of things. Yes runs are important. But if the guy leads the league in runs, but also leads in strikeouts, last in BA, last in RBI's then he shouldn't be regarded as a great player.

were my posts so vague that people would have a hard time understanding? I always considered myself to be a pretty decent communicator.

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
were my posts so vague that people would have a hard time understanding? I always considered myself to be a pretty decent communicator.

I think you communicated it well. Everyone is just so set in their opinions that if they came into the thread beliving something, they are going to leave believing it. I'm a perfect example, because i would still pick Halladay as the Cy Young winner.

 

[Francodman]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: Francodman
What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

He is saying as an individual stat to guage a player on it is unimportant. And i agree with him.

Of course runs are an important part of baseball..but not individual players' stats.

thank you, at least ONE person sees it.

i can't believe how hard it is to get this point accross. i thought it would be obvious.

same here. I think they are thinking in the grand scheme of things. Yes runs are important. But if the guy leads the league in runs, but also leads in strikeouts, last in BA, last in RBI's then he shouldn't be regarded as a great player.

were my posts so vague that people would have a hard time understanding? I always considered myself to be a pretty decent communicator.

well no sh!t, a guy thats hitting 26 HRs right now, but batting .220 shouldn't be regarded as a great player either. Rickey Henderson was a great player because he did EVERYTHING. Every stat is related to eachother somehow.


See: Adam Dunn

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Francodman
well no sh!t, a guy thats hitting 26 HRs right now, but batting .220 shouldn't be regarded as a great player either. Rickey Henderson was a great player because he did EVERYTHING. Every stat is related to eachother somehow.


See: Adam Dunn

Saying Rickey Henderson is a great player (which in my opinion he wasn't, nowhere NEAR Ty Cobbs for eg.) is NOT a strong argument for saying that RUNS Scored is an important stat.

 

[pyonir]

Rickey is a hall of famer...but if he was third in runs scored instead of the record holder, no one would make a big deal out of it. The fact that he has a .279 lifetime average, holds the record for stolen bases and has over 3,000 hits is what people are going to recognize the most.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Toasthead
Its NOT, repeat NOT the BEST PLAYER AWARD. It is the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. There is a clear difference.

Bonds is the king of the solo homer and is a marginal defensive outfielder. Puljos is putting up triple crown type numbers.

Puljos .370 AVG 33 HR 105 RBI 105 R 40 K in 118 Games
Bonds .341 AVG 37 HR 77 RBI 88 R 49 K in 101 Games

I mean come one dude, How can you say Bonds is the MVP?

Bonds hands down. If he was pitched too he'd have 50 HR's by now and a 390 BA.

 

[Ladies Man]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: Francodman
What determines the result of the game? Runs. To win you have to score runs, be it small ball or sluggin em out. Runs are important.

He is saying as an individual stat to guage a player on it is unimportant. And i agree with him.

Of course runs are an important part of baseball..but not individual players' stats.

thank you, at least ONE person sees it.

i can't believe how hard it is to get this point accross. i thought it would be obvious.

same here. I think they are thinking in the grand scheme of things. Yes runs are important. But if the guy leads the league in runs, but also leads in strikeouts, last in BA, last in RBI's then he shouldn't be regarded as a great player.

were my posts so vague that people would have a hard time understanding? I always considered myself to be a pretty decent communicator.

agh agh agh agh
3rd base coach can't make a runner have a split second reaction when an outfielder bobbles a ball to advance or stay put. A 3rd base coach can't make a runner read curve ball in the dirt to get an extra hop and take a base if the ball scoots by/off the catcher. Speed and smarts tell a runner if he can make it from 1st to 3rd on a basehit to right center. Runs are a very important stat in baseball and an important individual stat. Running 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, 1st to home, advancing on flys from 2nd to 3rd, and 3rd to home are not written down on the back of a baseball card. Runs pretty much sums it up. If you are a good, agressive baserunner that doesn't do anything stupid, your runs will be higher than others. And when looking at runs you need to take in account everything else, AB, BB, etc etc etc

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Toasthead
Its NOT, repeat NOT the BEST PLAYER AWARD. It is the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. There is a clear difference.

Bonds is the king of the solo homer and is a marginal defensive outfielder. Puljos is putting up triple crown type numbers.

Puljos .370 AVG 33 HR 105 RBI 105 R 40 K in 118 Games
Bonds .341 AVG 37 HR 77 RBI 88 R 49 K in 101 Games

I mean come one dude, How can you say Bonds is the MVP?

Bonds hands down. If he was pitched too he'd have 50 HR's by now and a 390 BA.

i love how toast says "king of the solo homer" as if that's all Bonds's fault.