********BORDERLANDS discussion thread*******

[Malak]

Fantastic opening cinematic.

 

[Nebor]

Borderlands is now available for pre-load. Not really, because it tells you the servers are too busy, but technically it's available.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Borderlands is now available for pre-load. Not really, because it tells you the servers are too busy, but technically it's available.

i want to play damnit!

 

[l0cke]

Okay, so why can we pre-load now but can't play until the 26th, but it is already out for consoles?

 

[Zenoth]

Originally posted by: l0cke
Okay, so why can we pre-load now but can't play until the 26th, but it is already out for consoles?

It had been delayed by a week for the PC version for whatever reason Gearbox gave, the console versions were not subject to that delay. The European PC version will be released four days later on the 30th. The Steam version can be pre-loaded on the PC simply for the sake of efficiency and giving a few days to the buyers to get it when they see fit, which in turn gives some relax on the server's capabilities, because if everyone had to download it all at the same time on the 26th it might cause server issues, it already does right now by the pre-loading demand, so by the time we get to next Monday lots of people will have it and Valve won't have to worry about melting servers.

 

[JSt0rm]

Servers are too busy to even preload. I bought it but it would be totally hilarious if it was a turd with all this activity on it

 

[I4AT]

Ok, this game comes out in 4 days or so, and I've still yet to hear any news on the DRM scheme they'll be using. I need to know whether I should cancel my pre-orders or not, but nobody seems to be discussing this issue and that has me a bit worried.

 

[Zenoth]

Originally posted by: I4AT
Ok, this game comes out in 4 days or so, and I've still yet to hear any news on the DRM scheme they'll be using. I need to know whether I should cancel my pre-orders or not, but nobody seems to be discussing this issue and that has me a bit worried.

I don't know about the retail version, but the Steam version don't seem to have any third party security included, unless they just "forgot" to mention it, because if a game has third party security on Steam then it is shown at the game's description, under "3rd-party DRM" (in green) but with Borderlands there's no such mention, at all, and all other Steam games I own that aren't made by Valve for which there's no such mention are indeed free of any security measures, so that would lead me to think that the Steam version of Borderlands isn't "protected" by neither SecuROM or TAGES or anything similar. I would think that the retail version has a minimum of security check such as SecuROM's disk check.

 

[I4AT]

I plan on getting the retail copy, the only games I ever tie to Steam are Valve ones because you really don't have a choice. If anyone has any information pertaining to the DRM used in retail please post links. Anything more than a disc check and I'll most likely end up canceling my pre-orders.

 

[Zenoth]

Originally posted by: I4AT
I plan on getting the retail copy, the only games I ever tie to Steam are Valve ones because you really don't have a choice. If anyone has any information pertaining to the DRM used in retail please post links. Anything more than a disc check and I'll most likely end up canceling my pre-orders.

There's no clear mention anywhere I've seen that the PC retail version would have anything "major" in terms of protection, it would have been known by now and I would think that it would have created some uproar had it been heavily protected. There's certainly a minimum amount of protection, that's for sure.

I would think that there's a simple disk check from SecuROM, but I haven't read anything about activation limits, on-line activation requirements or anything of the likes, as I said I think that at least Gearbox would have informed the gamers by now had it been the case, even if people don't usually like DRM the developers and/or publishers don't tend to keep that kind of information secret.

If I was you I wouldn't worry about it, if you're still not sure however then I suggest canceling your retail pre-order and go for the Steam version. And Valve games aren't just available on Steam you know, you have retail versions too, I got Half-Life 2: Episode One retail and the Orange Box retail.

 

[subzero1011]

Got 2 confirmed for a 4 pack; need 2 more if anyone is interested. I'll pick it up and can send out accordingly. Drop a reply here or PM me if your interested.

 

[I4AT]

Originally posted by: Zenoth

Originally posted by: I4AT
I plan on getting the retail copy, the only games I ever tie to Steam are Valve ones because you really don't have a choice. If anyone has any information pertaining to the DRM used in retail please post links. Anything more than a disc check and I'll most likely end up canceling my pre-orders.

There's no clear mention anywhere I've seen that the PC retail version would have anything "major" in terms of protection, it would have been known by now and I would think that it would have created some uproar had it been heavily protected. There's certainly a minimum amount of protection, that's for sure.

I would think that there's a simple disk check from SecuROM, but I haven't read anything about activation limits, on-line activation requirements or anything of the likes, as I said I think that at least Gearbox would have informed the gamers by now had it been the case, even if people don't usually like DRM the developers and/or publishers don't tend to keep that kind of information secret.

If I was you I wouldn't worry about it, if you're still not sure however then I suggest canceling your retail pre-order and go for the Steam version. And Valve games aren't just available on Steam you know, you have retail versions too, I got Half-Life 2: Episode One retail and the Orange Box retail.

Yeah, that's the thing though, the fact that they aren't talking about it could be bad news. It's a hot topic these days, and you'd think if their game included nothing more than a basic disc check they'd be way more vocal about it, cause that would sell games.

Steam isn't really an option though, I know you can get Valve games OTC but once you install them you register them with Steam and they're yours forever, it basically just saves you a little downloading time.

 

[I4AT]

Found this on the Borderlands forum, in a section it really shouldn't have been in... but anyways:

gbxnettle:
I did the securom stuff... questions?
fogglecopter:
Are there activation limits?
gbxnettle:
no
gbxnettle:
there is a release-date control though, so you'll need an internet connection to install the game. (yes, even just to install it)
gbxnettle:
After the release date passes, any future copies that are mastered will not have that extra layer.
gbxnettle:
steam version uses steam copy protection. Not securom.
gbxnettle:
there is also the standard CD-check for securom... so you'll need the cd to play.
gbxnettle:
(don't get mad at us for that, we don't have control over what copy protection to put on it.)

So it will initially have online activation that logs in to a securom server to check for the proper release date before installing. Whether it will be patched out at some point is unknown, and supposedly* the second run of hard copies will remove the release date check. Other than that it's supposed to use a basic securom disc check with no other activations/limits. Also, apparently there's no CD-Key authentication, and there is LAN support so that may be a problem, especially since the dial-in infrastructure is already there.

Developers have been pretty hush hush about it, this is all info I've seen copied and pasted into a thread on their forums, no real links or hard evidence to back any of this up so don't take it as gospel. Think I'm gonna cancel my 3 pre-orders and wait for this supposed 2nd run of games, assuming there'll even be a way of knowing which is which.

 

[Jschmuck2]

RUN! TEH DRM MONSTARS ARE COMING TO GET YOUSE!

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: I4AT
Found this on the Borderlands forum, in a section it really shouldn't have been in... but anyways:

gbxnettle:
I did the securom stuff... questions?
fogglecopter:
Are there activation limits?
gbxnettle:
no
gbxnettle:
there is a release-date control though, so you'll need an internet connection to install the game. (yes, even just to install it)
gbxnettle:
After the release date passes, any future copies that are mastered will not have that extra layer.
gbxnettle:
steam version uses steam copy protection. Not securom.
gbxnettle:
there is also the standard CD-check for securom... so you'll need the cd to play.
gbxnettle:
(don't get mad at us for that, we don't have control over what copy protection to put on it.)

So it will initially have online activation that logs in to a securom server to check for the proper release date before installing. Whether it will be patched out at some point is unknown, and supposedly* the second run of hard copies will remove the release date check. Other than that it's supposed to use a basic securom disc check with no other activations/limits. Also, apparently there's no CD-Key authentication, and there is LAN support so that may be a problem, especially since the dial-in infrastructure is already there.

Developers have been pretty hush hush about it, this is all info I've seen copied and pasted into a thread on their forums, no real links or hard evidence to back any of this up so don't take it as gospel. Think I'm gonna cancel my 3 pre-orders and wait for this supposed 2nd run of games, assuming there'll even be a way of knowing which is which.

Sounds reasonable to me. Just wait for the Gold Edition, that way it will be cheaper, you will get all of the content, and you know it won't have an online activation. :thumbsup:

 

[I4AT]

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
RUN! TEH DRM MONSTARS ARE COMING TO GET YOUSE!

I currently have over $135 invested into this game in copies for myself and friends/family. You may enjoy bending over and taking whatever developers feel like sticking up your ass, good for you, but I use my buying power and vote with my wallet.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: I4AT

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
RUN! TEH DRM MONSTARS ARE COMING TO GET YOUSE!

I currently have over $135 invested into this game in copies for myself and friends/family. You may enjoy bending over and taking whatever developers feel like sticking up your ass, good for you, but I use my buying power and vote with my wallet.

Why does it matter? Does it really hurt you to have your game call home? Does it affect you in any way? I have never had an issue with a securom game.

Would you prefer that developers instead pull out of the PC market?

 

[I4AT]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: I4AT

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
RUN! TEH DRM MONSTARS ARE COMING TO GET YOUSE!

I currently have over $135 invested into this game in copies for myself and friends/family. You may enjoy bending over and taking whatever developers feel like sticking up your ass, good for you, but I use my buying power and vote with my wallet.

Why does it matter? Does it really hurt you to have your game call home? Does it affect you in any way? I have never had an issue with a securom game.

Would you prefer that developers instead pull out of the PC market?

You know what, a majority of the time I am connected to the internet. In fact, the odds of my connection going down at the same instance I'm trying to install/activate a game are pretty slim. But do these measures affect piracy in any shape or form? Or are they simply an inconvenience to legitimate buyers? The real reason for DRM is to restrict second hand sales, everybody knows it doesn't stop piracy. I am an avid game trader and a firm believer in value for my dollar. If a game has no multiplayer, that has an effect on the amount of money I'm willing to pay for it. If a game can't be resold or traded due to the fact that it's tied to Steam or has activation limits, that has an effect on the amount of money I'm willing to pay for it. If it doesn't use a peer 2 peer networking model meaning when the developer drops support for it and shuts down servers, I take that into account when determining its value.

It's a business model based on greed and control, but I'd be lying if I said I would never support it based on principle alone. I'd buy games that dialed home, had limited activations, and required me to be online to play them, for $1. Just like the cheeseburger that I eat and shit out when I'm done with it. But if you're asking full price from me your game had better be playable for as long as I want, whenever I want. There are more than enough things in life to provide entertainment value, if I don't think your game is worth it I pass on it, simple as that. Frankly I wouldn't care if half of these developers pulled out of the PC market, most of them suck anyways, and the amount of good games that are actually worth playing and their asking price are so few and far between this is becoming more of a niche hobby for me anyways.

But I came into this thread seeking information for my own purchasing needs. I didn't come here to get your opinion on whether or not games that dial home affect anyone, thanks anyways though.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: I4AT

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: I4AT

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
RUN! TEH DRM MONSTARS ARE COMING TO GET YOUSE!

I currently have over $135 invested into this game in copies for myself and friends/family. You may enjoy bending over and taking whatever developers feel like sticking up your ass, good for you, but I use my buying power and vote with my wallet.

Why does it matter? Does it really hurt you to have your game call home? Does it affect you in any way? I have never had an issue with a securom game.

Would you prefer that developers instead pull out of the PC market?

You know what, a majority of the time I am connected to the internet. In fact, the odds of my connection going down at the same instance I'm trying to install/activate a game are pretty slim. But do these measures affect piracy in any shape or form? Or are they simply an inconvenience to legitimate buyers? The real reason for DRM is to restrict second hand sales, everybody knows it doesn't stop piracy. I am an avid game trader and a firm believer in value for my dollar. If a game has no multiplayer, that has an effect on the amount of money I'm willing to pay for it. If a game can't be resold or traded due to the fact that it's tied to Steam or has activation limits, that has an effect on the amount of money I'm willing to pay for it. If it doesn't use a peer 2 peer networking model meaning when the developer drops support for it and shuts down servers, I take that into account when determining its value.

It's a business model based on greed and control, but I'd be lying if I said I would never support it based on principle alone. I'd buy games that dialed home, had limited activations, and required me to be online to play them, for $1. Just like the cheeseburger that I eat and shit out when I'm done with it. But if you're asking full price from me your game had better be playable for as long as I want, whenever I want. There are more than enough things in life to provide entertainment value, if I don't think your game is worth it I pass on it, simple as that. Frankly I wouldn't care if half of these developers pulled out of the PC market, most of them suck anyways, and the amount of good games that are actually worth playing and their asking price are so few and far between this is becoming more of a niche hobby for me anyways.

But I came into this thread seeking information for my own purchasing needs. I didn't come here to get your opinion on whether or not games that dial home affect anyone, thanks anyways though.

1. DRM does affect piracy. Joe Public who isn't a computer whiz isn't going to spend hours finding cracks to copy a game or a warez copy. He probably wouldn't even know where to look, beyond Google and maybe Kazaa (does Kazaa even exist anymore?). If his buddy wants a copy of the game, he'll try to burn it with the DVD copying software that came with his computer. It won't work. Buddy doesn't get a pirated copy. I don't think anyone believes real pirates are stopped by DRM.

2. You don't have a right to not be inconvenienced. They're taking reasonable measures to protect their IP.

3. Activation limits - First, how many times do you install a game? I generally don't wipe my computer when I'm in the middle of a game. Maybe if you get a virus, I can see a fresh install. Maybe it's a game with a lot of replay value and you keep it for 5 years. How many times have you reinstalled Windows/changed hard drives in 5 years? Second, most developers either release a deactivation tool or remove the activation limit completely after the game has been out for a while. Third, if you're planning on re-selling the game, then just don't use all of your activations. Hold off on reinstalling Windows until you sell it. Not a big deal.

4. A "business model based on greed and control" is how business works. The developers aren't in it just for fun. They're trying to earn more money for a game than it cost them to produce and support it. Limiting piracy or second-hand sales is a way to do that.

5. A lot of the time, the actual developers don't even have control over the DRM (ex. Borderlands - read the previous posts in this thread). Skipping a great game because of DRM ultimately hurts good developers.

 

[Zenoth]

Just let him do what he wants with his money, he has taken his decision, why should he suddenly change his mind?

He is still considering buying it, I for one simply tried to look for evidence about the security and like him I am seeing some sort of a "silence" on the subject from the developers, there's no hard evidence, no official words, no formal writings or ads or descriptions, it's pretty much "buy it and then you'll see". I pre-ordered it and I got it on Steam, already on the Steam's description page for Borderlands there was no mention of third party security, in such a case it's safe to assume that, indeed, there's no SecuROM, and as a fact it's indeed the case for the Steam version of Borderlands, that's fine by me. But I4AT wants the retail version.

In the end, whatever version he wants, or considers to buy still represents a copy (or more than one copy) purchase, there's no reasons to persuade him that he is "wrong" or anything, he is the gamer, he is a legitimate buyer, it's his money, and in this capitalist society the best way to talk as a consumer is indeed with our wallet, I may not entirely agree with every decisions he takes, but I respect them because I understand why he has principles, and whether or not I agree with them is irrelevant, only him takes the final decision in the end.

 

[I4AT]

It has nothing to do with rights first of all, the decisions they make to protect their IP affect my decision on whether to buy their game. In the big picture if that works for them, so be it. I don't care who does or doesn't buy the game. I didn't come in here and say, hey joshsquall, don't buy this game cause it dials in. I said:

Originally posted by: I4AT
Ok, this game comes out in 4 days or so, and I've still yet to hear any news on the DRM scheme they'll be using. I need to know whether I should cancel my pre-orders or not, but nobody seems to be discussing this issue and that has me a bit worried.

But you felt the need to strike up an argument, so here we are.

How many times I will install a game is unknown. How many times someone that receives my old copy of the game will install is unknown. How many times people that get that copy 3rd or later hand will install the game is unknown. The span of time all of this could happen in is unknown.

It's unfortunate that developers are at the mercy of their chosen publishers, but that's the route they chose. There are good games that didn't cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make, there are DRM free games that are still very successful, especially older titles that were released before said DRM was even an option. Good games sell, bad games don't. The used market can be killed by periodically slashing retail prices instead of letting games sit on shelves for years at MSRP until eventually the retailer eats the loss and clearances them. If I have the choice between buying a new game from Best Buy and a used game from some random guy on Ebay for the same price, which one do you think I'm gonna go for?

Developers and publishers see 5 million pirated copies and immediately see 5 million sales they would've otherwise made had it not been for bittorrent, instead of looking at it as 5 million people played our game for free when they would have otherwise not played it at all, and that's the reality of the situation. It's impossible to quantify theoretically lost sales due to piracy. Continually slashing prices as sales drop off is a formula for profit. They're so blinded by their lust for dollars they make all these decisions that hurt themselves, it's not because of me.

Edit:
And by the way, thank you Zenoth for actually providing useful information instead of trying to be a teh internetz monstars douche that refreshes this thread 10 times a day hoping someone quoted his post with a "This." and a laugh face emoticon, or strike up a debate about DRM.

 

[Lumathix]

Originally posted by: Krakn3Dfx
I'm totally stoked about this game. I hope the game world is big enough to encompass the amount of time I can see myself playing this.

This makes me stoked to play it.

This makes me even more stoked to play it on the PC

holy crap those vids look like a$$....

 

[Zenoth]

There's word around that Gearbox is now considering to officially release the PC version tomorrow, I'm not sure how "official" it is, I'm just reading some posts on various discussion forums including that of Gearbox, apparently there are some retail stores such as Best Buy that received the physical copies of the PC version yesterday, and that they sold some copies "by mistake" today.

The buyers probably don't know at this point that there is security on the disk for a check about the proper release date, but either way, if they do release it officially tomorrow I for one will be a happy panda, I wouldn't see why we would still have to wait another four days if the PC version is already being physically distributed and already present in some retail stores. I'm just telling myself "c'mon just release the damn thing already, it's ready, some people have bought it legitimately, stores sold some copies, mistakes were done, alright, big deal, release it, that's it"... but apparently it may not be that simple, heh, who knows.

I have some hope for tomorrow.

EDIT: Curiously enough, the release date for the PC version on GameSpot is now the 23rd, and if I recall correctly they did change it from the 26th... interesting.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
There's word around that Gearbox is now considering to officially release the PC version tomorrow, I'm not sure how "official" it is, I'm just reading some posts on various discussion forums including that of Gearbox, apparently there are some retail stores such as Best Buy that received the physical copies of the PC version yesterday, and that they sold some copies "by mistake" today.

The buyers probably don't know at this point that there is security on the disk for a check about the proper release date, but either way, if they do release it officially tomorrow I for one will be a happy panda, I wouldn't see why we would still have to wait another four days if the PC version is already being physically distributed and already present in some retail stores. I'm just telling myself "c'mon just release the damn thing already, it's ready, some people have bought it legitimately, stores sold some copies, mistakes were done, alright, big deal, release it, that's it"... but apparently it may not be that simple, heh, who knows.

I have some hope for tomorrow.

That would be awesome. I pre-ordered from D2D already, and it would be nice to play over the weekend a bit.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Zenoth
There's word around that Gearbox is now considering to officially release the PC version tomorrow, I'm not sure how "official" it is, I'm just reading some posts on various discussion forums including that of Gearbox, apparently there are some retail stores such as Best Buy that received the physical copies of the PC version yesterday, and that they sold some copies "by mistake" today.

The buyers probably don't know at this point that there is security on the disk for a check about the proper release date, but either way, if they do release it officially tomorrow I for one will be a happy panda, I wouldn't see why we would still have to wait another four days if the PC version is already being physically distributed and already present in some retail stores. I'm just telling myself "c'mon just release the damn thing already, it's ready, some people have bought it legitimately, stores sold some copies, mistakes were done, alright, big deal, release it, that's it"... but apparently it may not be that simple, heh, who knows.

I have some hope for tomorrow.

That would be awesome. I pre-ordered from D2D already, and it would be nice to play over the weekend a bit.

i pre-loaded earlier today but am away from my computer for the weekend