Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Being good at school is a learned behavior. People are not born "good at school". Has anyone considered that cultural values have a big impact on how certain "people" perform at school.
Exactly! That's the purpose of AA.
So the ability to learn is not genetic?
Does that mean anyone can learn to be a genius like Stephen Hawking?
So are you saying being good at school is only based on intelligence?
Maybe learning discipline and motivation could really help you out in school.
No, but it sure helps.
So are you saying that only the white culture encourages discipline and motivation?
Don't recall naming any racial groups. Is this how you feel?
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Being good at school is a learned behavior. People are not born "good at school". Has anyone considered that cultural values have a big impact on how certain "people" perform at school.
Exactly! That's the purpose of AA.
Originally posted by: yllus
My problem with affirmative action is that while it's a noble idea, it only serves to:
A) Encourage some of the target group in thinking that they don't need to be as good as the non-targetted,
B) Downplay the achievements of those in the target group who do not make use of the program,
C) Creates resentment with those who compete at the same level but are dismissed for reasons of quota.
In reality, it's just a bad idea. Y'all would do well to scrap the program.
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Being good at school is a learned behavior. People are not born "good at school". Has anyone considered that cultural values have a big impact on how certain "people" perform at school.
Exactly! That's the purpose of AA.
If you have to have a program like AA to try promote "equality" or a "level playing field", then that right there says that people are not equal to begin with. If they REALLY were then there would be no need for AA. Therefore, somebody who accepts a job handed to them by AA that somebody else probably deserved more, is simply admitting their inferiority/inequality. I don't know about you, but I'd rather go find something for which I am truly qualified and will excel at than to accept that kind of "help." Of course if somebody has accepted their societal "inadequate" label and is OK with wearing that label on over their head and wants to take that position anyway. . .well that's his decision to make. But the fact is the more laws we pass to try and force people not to segregate or discriminate, the more segregated our society will become. People naturally stick with their own kind just like herds of wild animals. It is a simple biological desire to be around people who are like you. Walk into any large, crowded cafeteria at lunch time for example and look around you at who's sitting at what tables. You can't legislate that away. That is what I meant when I said you can make all the laws and ammendments to the constitution you want but you can't change peoples hearts, minds, and ways.
Every race of people is guilty of this though, not just white people. And that's what pisses white people off so much is that everybody seems to act like it's white people who are the perpetrators of all racism when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence quite clearly demonstrates that that is absolutely not true. And what we are beginning to see is more and more races being thrown into the mix in the American melting pot and being caught in the crossfire between the now ages old traditional black/white definition of racism in America. We all really need to get over ourselves. It's not just about black and white any more. We all need to get over ourselves and get a grip when it comes to what we consider overtly racist and what is just people's natural tendency to stick together. Natural behaviors like this take time to unlearn especially for people who come from traditionally largely non-integrated populations. It doesn't surprise me when I see a help wanted sign written in Chinese on the window of the Chinese buffet down the street. Nor does it surprise me when I walk in there and find that every single last employee in the restaurant is Asian. You know why? Because Asians stick together. You know why? Because if you go to China or maybe Taiwan and look around you on the average street, you know what you see? Asians! Lots of them! Maybe a tourist or two. Now go to New York city and look around you, I bet you see people from half the countries in the world on the average city street. Depending on how long those people have lived in America, they all have differing degrees of comfort with racial integration. Are they racist if they prefer to hang out with people of their own ethnicities? No. It's natural. And we are all unlearning this natural behavior but it's going to take time. And you can't force it.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
What you are describing would not be a problem if the wealth and power were not massively concentrated in a single ethnic group to the obvious detrament of others.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Being good at school is a learned behavior. People are not born "good at school". Has anyone considered that cultural values have a big impact on how certain "people" perform at school.
Exactly! That's the purpose of AA.
If you have to have a program like AA to try promote "equality" or a "level playing field", then that right there says that people are not equal to begin with. If they REALLY were then there would be no need for AA. Therefore, somebody who accepts a job handed to them by AA that somebody else probably deserved more, is simply admitting their inferiority/inequality. I don't know about you, but I'd rather go find something for which I am truly qualified and will excel at than to accept that kind of "help." Of course if somebody has accepted their societal "inadequate" label and is OK with wearing that label on over their head and wants to take that position anyway. . .well that's his decision to make. But the fact is the more laws we pass to try and force people not to segregate or discriminate, the more segregated our society will become. People naturally stick with their own kind just like herds of wild animals. It is a simple biological desire to be around people who are like you. Walk into any large, crowded cafeteria at lunch time for example and look around you at who's sitting at what tables. You can't legislate that away. That is what I meant when I said you can make all the laws and ammendments to the constitution you want but you can't change peoples hearts, minds, and ways.
Every race of people is guilty of this though, not just white people. And that's what pisses white people off so much is that everybody seems to act like it's white people who are the perpetrators of all racism when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence quite clearly demonstrates that that is absolutely not true. And what we are beginning to see is more and more races being thrown into the mix in the American melting pot and being caught in the crossfire between the now ages old traditional black/white definition of racism in America. We all really need to get over ourselves. It's not just about black and white any more. We all need to get over ourselves and get a grip when it comes to what we consider overtly racist and what is just people's natural tendency to stick together. Natural behaviors like this take time to unlearn especially for people who come from traditionally largely non-integrated populations. It doesn't surprise me when I see a help wanted sign written in Chinese on the window of the Chinese buffet down the street. Nor does it surprise me when I walk in there and find that every single last employee in the restaurant is Asian. You know why? Because Asians stick together. You know why? Because if you go to China or maybe Taiwan and look around you on the average street, you know what you see? Asians! Lots of them! Maybe a tourist or two. Now go to New York city and look around you, I bet you see people from half the countries in the world on the average city street. Depending on how long those people have lived in America, they all have differing degrees of comfort with racial integration. Are they racist if they prefer to hang out with people of their own ethnicities? No. It's natural. And we are all unlearning this natural behavior but it's going to take time. And you can't force it.
You're right. We should re-segregate our schools until people grow out of it.
What you are describing would not be a problem if the wealth and power were not massively concentrated in a single ethnic group to the obvious detrament of others.
It has to do with the culture of attempting to succeed.Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Being good at school is a learned behavior. People are not born "good at school". Has anyone considered that cultural values have a big impact on how certain "people" perform at school.
Exactly! That's the purpose of AA.
If you have to have a program like AA to try promote "equality" or a "level playing field", then that right there says that people are not equal to begin with. If they REALLY were then there would be no need for AA. Therefore, somebody who accepts a job handed to them by AA that somebody else probably deserved more, is simply admitting their inferiority/inequality. I don't know about you, but I'd rather go find something for which I am truly qualified and will excel at than to accept that kind of "help." Of course if somebody has accepted their societal "inadequate" label and is OK with wearing that label on over their head and wants to take that position anyway. . .well that's his decision to make. But the fact is the more laws we pass to try and force people not to segregate or discriminate, the more segregated our society will become. People naturally stick with their own kind just like herds of wild animals. It is a simple biological desire to be around people who are like you. Walk into any large, crowded cafeteria at lunch time for example and look around you at who's sitting at what tables. You can't legislate that away. That is what I meant when I said you can make all the laws and ammendments to the constitution you want but you can't change peoples hearts, minds, and ways.
Every race of people is guilty of this though, not just white people. And that's what pisses white people off so much is that everybody seems to act like it's white people who are the perpetrators of all racism when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence quite clearly demonstrates that that is absolutely not true. And what we are beginning to see is more and more races being thrown into the mix in the American melting pot and being caught in the crossfire between the now ages old traditional black/white definition of racism in America. We all really need to get over ourselves. It's not just about black and white any more. We all need to get over ourselves and get a grip when it comes to what we consider overtly racist and what is just people's natural tendency to stick together. Natural behaviors like this take time to unlearn especially for people who come from traditionally largely non-integrated populations. It doesn't surprise me when I see a help wanted sign written in Chinese on the window of the Chinese buffet down the street. Nor does it surprise me when I walk in there and find that every single last employee in the restaurant is Asian. You know why? Because Asians stick together. You know why? Because if you go to China or maybe Taiwan and look around you on the average street, you know what you see? Asians! Lots of them! Maybe a tourist or two. Now go to New York city and look around you, I bet you see people from half the countries in the world on the average city street. Depending on how long those people have lived in America, they all have differing degrees of comfort with racial integration. Are they racist if they prefer to hang out with people of their own ethnicities? No. It's natural. And we are all unlearning this natural behavior but it's going to take time. And you can't force it.
You're right. We should re-segregate our schools until people grow out of it.
What you are describing would not be a problem if the wealth and power were not massively concentrated in a single ethnic group to the obvious detrament of others.
Indians and Asians don't seem to have much trouble becoming successful in a short amount of time. They have to learn a new language and culture on top of everthing else.
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
It has to do with the culture of attempting to succeed.Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Being good at school is a learned behavior. People are not born "good at school". Has anyone considered that cultural values have a big impact on how certain "people" perform at school.
Exactly! That's the purpose of AA.
If you have to have a program like AA to try promote "equality" or a "level playing field", then that right there says that people are not equal to begin with. If they REALLY were then there would be no need for AA. Therefore, somebody who accepts a job handed to them by AA that somebody else probably deserved more, is simply admitting their inferiority/inequality. I don't know about you, but I'd rather go find something for which I am truly qualified and will excel at than to accept that kind of "help." Of course if somebody has accepted their societal "inadequate" label and is OK with wearing that label on over their head and wants to take that position anyway. . .well that's his decision to make. But the fact is the more laws we pass to try and force people not to segregate or discriminate, the more segregated our society will become. People naturally stick with their own kind just like herds of wild animals. It is a simple biological desire to be around people who are like you. Walk into any large, crowded cafeteria at lunch time for example and look around you at who's sitting at what tables. You can't legislate that away. That is what I meant when I said you can make all the laws and ammendments to the constitution you want but you can't change peoples hearts, minds, and ways.
Every race of people is guilty of this though, not just white people. And that's what pisses white people off so much is that everybody seems to act like it's white people who are the perpetrators of all racism when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence quite clearly demonstrates that that is absolutely not true. And what we are beginning to see is more and more races being thrown into the mix in the American melting pot and being caught in the crossfire between the now ages old traditional black/white definition of racism in America. We all really need to get over ourselves. It's not just about black and white any more. We all need to get over ourselves and get a grip when it comes to what we consider overtly racist and what is just people's natural tendency to stick together. Natural behaviors like this take time to unlearn especially for people who come from traditionally largely non-integrated populations. It doesn't surprise me when I see a help wanted sign written in Chinese on the window of the Chinese buffet down the street. Nor does it surprise me when I walk in there and find that every single last employee in the restaurant is Asian. You know why? Because Asians stick together. You know why? Because if you go to China or maybe Taiwan and look around you on the average street, you know what you see? Asians! Lots of them! Maybe a tourist or two. Now go to New York city and look around you, I bet you see people from half the countries in the world on the average city street. Depending on how long those people have lived in America, they all have differing degrees of comfort with racial integration. Are they racist if they prefer to hang out with people of their own ethnicities? No. It's natural. And we are all unlearning this natural behavior but it's going to take time. And you can't force it.
You're right. We should re-segregate our schools until people grow out of it.
What you are describing would not be a problem if the wealth and power were not massively concentrated in a single ethnic group to the obvious detrament of others.
Indians and Asians don't seem to have much trouble becoming successful in a short amount of time. They have to learn a new language and culture on top of everthing else.
The black culture (that the AA was originally targeted for) has attempted to use the problems of the past 100 years as an excuse for not striving when assistance was offered.
It was easier to play turtle and complain about their predictament. Then you have the so-called black leadership that attempt toplay the race card; completely ignoring that they themselves were able to break free.
If all blacks were being deprived, I could see it. However, I have met many that have either by themselves or their parents have pulled themselves out of the ghetto trap and moved on.
It is the will to succeed. Some have come from broken families.
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
It has to do with the culture of attempting to succeed.
The black culture (that the AA was originally targeted for) has attempted to use the problems of the past 100 years as an excuse for not striving when assistance was offered.
It was easier to play turtle and complain about their predictament. Then you have the so-called black leadership that attempt toplay the race card; completely ignoring that they themselves were able to break free.
If all blacks were being deprived, I could see it. However, I have met many that have either by themselves or their parents have pulled themselves out of the ghetto trap and moved on.
It is the will to succeed. Some have come from broken families.
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
It has to do with the culture of attempting to succeed.
The black culture (that the AA was originally targeted for) has attempted to use the problems of the past 100 years as an excuse for not striving when assistance was offered.
It was easier to play turtle and complain about their predictament. Then you have the so-called black leadership that attempt toplay the race card; completely ignoring that they themselves were able to break free.
If all blacks were being deprived, I could see it. However, I have met many that have either by themselves or their parents have pulled themselves out of the ghetto trap and moved on.
It is the will to succeed. Some have come from broken families.
Whats your solution? Clearly sitting on our asses and letting the culture fester is not working.
I think AA focuses on the wrong issue by focusing on race. Minorities do not perform poorly because of racism, but rather because of a harmful culture and poor education. A general problem with schools is that they don't focus enough on real life. For example, students don't get to choose their own classes until high school (atleast thats how it was in my school district), so they don't choose subjects that motivate them. I think that if kids are able to find something motivating in school they may be encouraged to work more as a whole.
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
----SNIPPED----
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).
This is already in place.
4 year state schools accept any people that come out of CC (of the state) with the standards that are the same as required of those that have completed the first 2 years.
This is also in place (NOT for private schools tho like Ivy League, etc)
Those students that are able to compete straight out of HS for the 4 yr schools based on academic performance.
Already in place
Those students that want to cross state lines have to do so based on academic performance only; no state subsidies.
Actually, out of state pays higher tuition at most, if not all public universities...
This will remove the soc alled economic/cultural barrier that people use with respect to obtaining higher education.
If a person wants the education to break the ghetto/poverty cycle, they are given the opportunity. Race should not come into play with any evaluation/application
Just an FYI
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
At some point you have to break the cycle of being the victim.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Corbett
Its about time!
Ditto :thumbsup:
I agree that all my solution are claimed to be in place.Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
----SNIPPED----
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).
This is already in place.
4 year state schools accept any people that come out of CC (of the state) with the standards that are the same as required of those that have completed the first 2 years.
This is also in place (NOT for private schools tho like Ivy League, etc)
Those students that are able to compete straight out of HS for the 4 yr schools based on academic performance.
Already in place
Those students that want to cross state lines have to do so based on academic performance only; no state subsidies.
Actually, out of state pays higher tuition at most, if not all public universities...
This will remove the soc alled economic/cultural barrier that people use with respect to obtaining higher education.
If a person wants the education to break the ghetto/poverty cycle, they are given the opportunity. Race should not come into play with any evaluation/application
Just an FYI
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I agree that all my solution are claimed to be in place.Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
----SNIPPED----
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).
This is already in place.
4 year state schools accept any people that come out of CC (of the state) with the standards that are the same as required of those that have completed the first 2 years.
This is also in place (NOT for private schools tho like Ivy League, etc)
Those students that are able to compete straight out of HS for the 4 yr schools based on academic performance.
Already in place
Those students that want to cross state lines have to do so based on academic performance only; no state subsidies.
Actually, out of state pays higher tuition at most, if not all public universities...
This will remove the soc alled economic/cultural barrier that people use with respect to obtaining higher education.
If a person wants the education to break the ghetto/poverty cycle, they are given the opportunity. Race should not come into play with any evaluation/application
Just an FYI
However, the cost may be "claimed" to be an issue by the under achievers
Remove the cost of education issue at the CC and 4 Yr levels for state schools and then there is no excuse.
I have no problem increase my state tax structure to force the state to offer a no-tuition cost for all students that meet the required academic thresholds.
Education is an investment into the community and while some state schools may be better than others; all create a solid foundation for upward mobility to break the cycle.
Enrollment within each state school system (slots per school) should be initially allocated geographically. Setting up satelite campuses will also ease the load on facilities.
It will take time and money to work; however, ignoring or paying lip service to the problem (as has been done) costs more to society than the solution.
as a side benefit, it removed some of the racist loudmouths from the equation that are convincing people that they deserve handouts.
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Corbett
Its about time!
Ditto :thumbsup:
I'm going to venture a guess and say that you're white and you've been rejected by a major university...
(just a random guess coming from your political stance on certain things including aa)
I have no problem increase my state tax structure to force the state to offer a no-tuition cost for all students that meet the required academic thresholds.Originally posted by: beyoku
I realize that it may not seem expensive; but to a under-achieving family that is currently living hand-to-mouth or on food stamps/welfare; a $500->2K tuition bill/semester + associated fees may be to much to handle.Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I agree that all my solution are claimed to be in place.Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
----SNIPPED----
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).
This is already in place.
4 year state schools accept any people that come out of CC (of the state) with the standards that are the same as required of those that have completed the first 2 years.
This is also in place (NOT for private schools tho like Ivy League, etc)
Those students that are able to compete straight out of HS for the 4 yr schools based on academic performance.
Already in place
Those students that want to cross state lines have to do so based on academic performance only; no state subsidies.
Actually, out of state pays higher tuition at most, if not all public universities...
This will remove the so callied economic/cultural barrier that people use with respect to obtaining higher education.
If a person wants the education to break the ghetto/poverty cycle, they are given the opportunity. Race should not come into play with any evaluation/application
Just an FYI
However, the cost may be "claimed" to be an issue by the under achievers
Remove the cost of education issue at the CC and 4 Yr levels for state schools and then there is no excuse.
I have no problem increase my state tax structure to force the state to offer a no-tuition cost for all students that meet the required academic thresholds.
Education is an investment into the community and while some state schools may be better than others; all create a solid foundation for upward mobility to break the cycle.
Enrollment within each state school system (slots per school) should be initially allocated geographically. Setting up satellite campuses will also ease the load on facilities.
It will take time and money to work; however, ignoring or paying lip service to the problem (as has been done) costs more to society than the solution.
as a side benefit, it removed some of the racist loudmouths from the equation that are convincing people that they deserve handouts.
I don't know what state you live in, but where I lived it was 50 bucks a credit hour at the CC in my hometown and 118 per credit hour for the state school down the road. That's not that expensive.
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I realize that it may not seem expensive; but to a under-achieving family that is currently living hand-to-mouth or on food stamps/welfare; a $500->2K tuition bill/semester + associated fees may be to much to handle.Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I agree that all my solution are claimed to be in place.Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
----SNIPPED----
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).
This is already in place.
4 year state schools accept any people that come out of CC (of the state) with the standards that are the same as required of those that have completed the first 2 years.
This is also in place (NOT for private schools tho like Ivy League, etc)
Those students that are able to compete straight out of HS for the 4 yr schools based on academic performance.
Already in place
Those students that want to cross state lines have to do so based on academic performance only; no state subsidies.
Actually, out of state pays higher tuition at most, if not all public universities...
This will remove the so callied economic/cultural barrier that people use with respect to obtaining higher education.
If a person wants the education to break the ghetto/poverty cycle, they are given the opportunity. Race should not come into play with any evaluation/application
Just an FYI
However, the cost may be "claimed" to be an issue by the under achievers
Remove the cost of education issue at the CC and 4 Yr levels for state schools and then there is no excuse.
I have no problem increase my state tax structure to force the state to offer a no-tuition cost for all students that meet the required academic thresholds.
Education is an investment into the community and while some state schools may be better than others; all create a solid foundation for upward mobility to break the cycle.
Enrollment within each state school system (slots per school) should be initially allocated geographically. Setting up satellite campuses will also ease the load on facilities.
It will take time and money to work; however, ignoring or paying lip service to the problem (as has been done) costs more to society than the solution.
as a side benefit, it removed some of the racist loudmouths from the equation that are convincing people that they deserve handouts.
I don't know what state you live in, but where I lived it was 50 bucks a credit hour at the CC in my hometown and 118 per credit hour for the state school down the road. That's not that expensive.
If they know that they can get the tuition problem handled; the student/family now has that obstacle removed. The books required for classes can be worked for during a summer job and/or part time job.
Now the scam regarding college books is a different story
The whole object of my theory is to make the ability to obtain a higher education removed as a justification for AA and to allow those that desire to, the ability to use education to break the poverty cycle.
I would venture to say that very few people that have a college level educataion are forced to live in the ghettos or in poverty.
Look where all the AA advocates live - not in the areas that they profess to be concerned about.
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
----SNIPPED----
Solution with respect to education is to let the government open up the CC system to any that are qualified (ie GED or HS diploma).
This is already in place.
4 year state schools accept any people that come out of CC (of the state) with the standards that are the same as required of those that have completed the first 2 years.
This is also in place (NOT for private schools tho like Ivy League, etc)
Those students that are able to compete straight out of HS for the 4 yr schools based on academic performance.
Already in place
Those students that want to cross state lines have to do so based on academic performance only; no state subsidies.
Actually, out of state pays higher tuition at most, if not all public universities...
This will remove the so callied economic/cultural barrier that people use with respect to obtaining higher education.
If a person wants the education to break the ghetto/poverty cycle, they are given the opportunity. Race should not come into play with any evaluation/application
-------------------SNIPPED TO SAVE SPACE----------------
That's the problem. People use the "I'm poor" excuse and only feel they should attend school if it is totally paid for. If I don't get a handout, I can't attend. There are so many financial aid and scholarship programs out there. Do some work and start earning it on your own.
Yes that is true. Depending on what study you look at, anywhere from zero to 12 billion/per year goes unused. There are so many studies it's hard to tell fact from fiction.
Anyhow. When I went to college, I was told by my financial aid counsellor that there is ALOT of financial aid that goes unused.
Originally posted by: Corbett
Its about time!