Boycott France? I'll pass

[Michael]

Vickas - I'm continueing to boycott French wine. Based on what I've read, it is putting pressure on the French. They're also being hit by a higher Euro and better competition from American and Australian growers.

Michael

 

[Gaard]

<<Based on what I've read, it is putting pressure on the French.>>

To do what?

 

[Michael]

Gaard - At this point, it has reminded them that they face potentially severe consequences for their actions. Many French business groups are pressuring the French government to get back aligned with the US. There has been a great deal more cooperation in the Security Council recently, for example.

Remember, one of my goals is to make the French pay a price for their actions. As I've said over and over, France can decide to do what France wants to but nothing is "free". I wanted parts of the French public to feel the result of their decisions. So far it is succeeding. Maybe they'll think harder next time.

Michael

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Michael
Gaard - At this point, it has reminded them that they face potentially severe consequences for their actions. Many French business groups are pressuring the French government to get back aligned with the US. There has been a great deal more cooperation in the Security Council recently, for example.

Remember, one of my goals is to make the French pay a price for their actions. As I've said over and over, France can decide to do what France wants to but nothing is "free". I wanted parts of the French public to feel the result of their decisions. So far it is succeeding. Maybe they'll think harder next time.

Michael

Ok. If that's how you feel, that's cool. I can't say as I agree with you, but then it'd be a pretty boring world if everyone thought like everyone else.

"Go along with me or pay the price." I don't hold to this philosophy. But if others do, who am I to tell them they shouldn't. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong. If that's the case, then I'm kinda glad I'm wrong in this case.

out

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Michael
Gaard - At this point, it has reminded them that they face potentially severe consequences for their actions. Many French business groups are pressuring the French government to get back aligned with the US. There has been a great deal more cooperation in the Security Council recently, for example.

Remember, one of my goals is to make the French pay a price for their actions. As I've said over and over, France can decide to do what France wants to but nothing is "free". I wanted parts of the French public to feel the result of their decisions. So far it is succeeding. Maybe they'll think harder next time.

Michael

You want them to "think harder" so that next time they'll support the bully?

 

[Michael]

hagbard - As opposed to supporting the dictator that tortures and murders his own people? "Bully" seems a little small compared to that. I'm actually somewhat embarrassed that my home country, Canada, didn't support the US in this case and am hoping that the Liberals pay the political price for it. Mind you, I always hated the Federal Liberal party (didn't have much other choice in Quebec if you didn't want to vote for the PQ).

Michael

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Michael
hagbard - As opposed to supporting the dictator that tortures and murders his own people? "Bully" seems a little small compared to that. I'm actually somewhat embarrassed that my home country, Canada, didn't support the US in this case and am hoping that the Liberals pay the political price for it. Mind you, I always hated the Federal Liberal party (didn't have much other choice in Quebec if you didn't want to vote for the PQ).

If you like 'em so much, why don't you pack your bags and move down there. They just invaded a powerless third world country, how brave of them. Oh boy, aren't they something. Now they're getting some payback, my only surprise is that its taken the Iraqi's this long.

As for me, I'll work for anyone who has the best chance of unseating those sellout Reformers.

 

[Michael]

hagbard - You idiot, I already moved to the US. About 12 years ago. Very glad that I did.

As for the "payback", this is typical post by you cheering for Americans to die.

I also noticed that you didn't answer my question - you seem to want someone who tortured and murdered his people to still be in power. I hope you end up living in a place just like that. Then you can come crawling to the USA and beg to be freed.

Michael

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: Michael
hagbard - You idiot, I already moved to the US. About 12 years ago. Very glad that I did.

As for the "payback", this is typical post by you cheering for Americans to die.

I also noticed that you didn't answer my question - you seem to want someone who tortured and murdered his people to still be in power. I hope you end up living in a place just like that. Then you can come crawling to the USA and beg to be freed.

Michael

Those weren't poor innocent people that got tortured and killed. Those were rebels, opposition groups, traitors and terrorist. They got what they deserved. If certain people actively (some Iraqi Shi'ites) supported the enemy (Iran)when the country was at war and turn on the gov't, then isn't it normal for these people to be punished? If a certain ethnic group (kurds) were forced out of a neighboring country and do nothing but fight the gov't, other nations, and each other do they deserve to be treated nicely? Many people lived quite well in Iraq. Those were the people who followed the rules. Whoever didn't got punished.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Michael
hagbard - You idiot, I already moved to the US. About 12 years ago. Very glad that I did.

Good, stay there. You're were you belong.

As for the "payback", this is typical post by you cheering for Americans to die.

I didn't side with the Nazi's either. I don't root for the aggressors.

I also noticed that you didn't answer my question - you seem to want someone who tortured and murdered his people to still be in power. I hope you end up living in a place just like that. Then you can come crawling to the USA and beg to be freed.

Saddam was no different than most other third world dictators, except that he was sitting on a sh*tload of oil and wasn't well liked by Israel. Their rationalization for invading was pure bull.

 

[0roo0roo]

right, thanks for bringing the israelis back into the fray. i'm sure we would have attacked the saudi's too if it were up to the israelis.

your position is weak. we should do nothing now because dictators were coddled in the past when convenient? past wrongs prevent one from doing current rights. was saddam near the top of the worst dictators? you bet. was france coddling him, trying to soften inspections so they could get oil contracts? you bet

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Zrom999

Originally posted by: Michael
hagbard - You idiot, I already moved to the US. About 12 years ago. Very glad that I did.

As for the "payback", this is typical post by you cheering for Americans to die.

I also noticed that you didn't answer my question - you seem to want someone who tortured and murdered his people to still be in power. I hope you end up living in a place just like that. Then you can come crawling to the USA and beg to be freed.

Michael

Those weren't poor innocent people that got tortured and killed. Those were rebels, opposition groups, traitors and terrorist. They got what they deserved. If certain people actively (some Iraqi Shi'ites) supported the enemy (Iran)when the country was at war and turn on the gov't, then isn't it normal for these people to be punished? If a certain ethnic group (kurds) were forced out of a neighboring country and do nothing but fight the gov't, other nations, and each other do they deserve to be treated nicely? Many people lived quite well in Iraq. Those were the people who followed the rules. Whoever didn't got punished.

Am I reading that right? Because if I am it seems that you're arguing that the people who Saddam's regime killed deserved to die (or be tortured for that fact). I hope I'm wrong about that, otherwise it shows a very limited if not deliberately biased view of that particular situation. IMHO it doesn't matter if you agree or do not agree about whether the war was right - I still don't see how you can in any way condone the actions of Saddam's government.

Andy

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Michael
Gaard - At this point, it has reminded them that they face potentially severe consequences for their actions. Many French business groups are pressuring the French government to get back aligned with the US. There has been a great deal more cooperation in the Security Council recently, for example.

Remember, one of my goals is to make the French pay a price for their actions. As I've said over and over, France can decide to do what France wants to but nothing is "free". I wanted parts of the French public to feel the result of their decisions. So far it is succeeding. Maybe they'll think harder next time.

Michael

Surely you'd be better waiting for the vindication of the action (ie WMD showing that Iraq was a major and imminent threat) before using your spending power to tell the french public "look, your decision if followed may have led to real danger" when that particular evidence isn't in yet. You never know, maybe the (forgetting oil conspiracy theory on all sides of the atlantic for one second) french public were right to decide that Iraq wasn't a threat and so therefore we should avoid a war with them at present?

I know that I can't sit all comfortable in the knowledge that the reasons for waging the war are now conclusive. I get more worried by the day that the fact that I supported military action (even though I wanted a different process leading to it - as I believed that a war would be almost inevitable anyway given Saddam's history) for the wrong reasons (ie they weren't a credible threat and certainly not anywhere near what we were led to believe).

Cheers,

Andy

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
right, thanks for bringing the israelis back into the fray. i'm sure we would have attacked the saudi's too if it were up to the israelis.

your position is weak. we should do nothing now because dictators were coddled in the past when convenient? past wrongs prevent one from doing current rights. was saddam near the top of the worst dictators? you bet. was france coddling him, trying to soften inspections so they could get oil contracts? you bet

And what business is it of the United States?

 

[Michael]

Fencer128 - Actually, I don't thinkt he reasons why the USA attacked Iraq start and end with WMD. France took great effort to oppose the USA. I don't care that there now is question about just how many WMD were around for this issue.

hagbard - Since most of the world makes it their business to care about what the USA does, the USA can make anything it decides is it's business an issue. So if the USA decides that tinpot dicators around Africa are something that has to go away, then it will. For the most part, they are not posing a threat to the USA. Afganistan is an example. The USA probably would have left the Taliban alone forever without the terrorism-link to the direct attack on the USA.

Michael

 

[Jani]

Originally posted by: Michael
hagbard - As opposed to supporting the dictator that tortures and murders his own people? "Bully" seems a little small compared to that. I'm actually somewhat embarrassed that my home country, Canada, didn't support the US

Time to boycott Canada also Michael?

Or is it so you don't trust French voters that they can vote the way you want in their next local French elections. Isn't it French people who decide whether their government did right or wrong.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Michael
Fencer128 - Actually, I don't thinkt he reasons why the USA attacked Iraq start and end with WMD. France took great effort to oppose the USA. I don't care that there now is question about just how many WMD were around for this issue.

That's where we differ. I mean the side effect of the country being liberated is great but I (and from what I can tell most of the UK public) would never have sanctioned this war if we thought that the "huge" threat of WMD wasn't the overiding reason to start a war. Without those WMD I am in a moral quandry, the country is continually questioning the motives of our government and the government is doing its best to tell everyone that they will be discovered eventually. Not that WMD aren't the reason for invasion - but that they will turn up eventually. I really hope they do.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: przero
Dig up our boys and bring home! Heroes deserve a better resting place!

Too far IMHO. Do you think that the French really don't appreciate what the allies did for them in WW2? - and let us be sure not to confuse appreciation with agreeing to everything subsequent to WW2. I don't know of any of my French friends (or their families for that matter) that don't hold the war dead in the highest esteem. It's funny - you don't see the French shouting "dig up the US dead and ship them back to the US because the US are being unreasonable".

Andy

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hey Fencer, I understand that the 2000 Bordeaux is the best in many a year. Stock up!


BTW for others, I see dead people, all the time. They tell me "Have them let us rest and keep us out of their stupid, petty quarrels"

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: przero
Dig up our boys and bring home! Heroes deserve a better resting place!

Too far IMHO. Do you think that the French really don't appreciate what the allies did for them in WW2? - and let us be sure not to confuse appreciation with agreeing to everything subsequent to WW2. I don't know of any of my French friends (or their families for that matter) that don't hold the war dead in the highest esteem. It's funny - you don't see the French shouting "dig up the US dead and ship them back to the US because the US are being unreasonable".

Andy

memorial to British war dead

French plea as cemetery defaced

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: przero
Dig up our boys and bring home! Heroes deserve a better resting place!

Too far IMHO. Do you think that the French really don't appreciate what the allies did for them in WW2? - and let us be sure not to confuse appreciation with agreeing to everything subsequent to WW2. I don't know of any of my French friends (or their families for that matter) that don't hold the war dead in the highest esteem. It's funny - you don't see the French shouting "dig up the US dead and ship them back to the US because the US are being unreasonable".

Andy

memorial to British war dead

French plea as cemetery defaced

Non Sequitor.

BTW, how long have the French and British been poking at one another?

Good thing we aren't like "the French" whoever they are. If "we" were like "them" "we"would want to did up the bodies of those resting quite nicely because of the petty. Oops.

No, I do not approve of it, but the juvenile "lets get back at them" attitude it suitable for OT. I should, and really do not expect much more.



Edit, thats better

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: przero
Dig up our boys and bring home! Heroes deserve a better resting place!

Too far IMHO. Do you think that the French really don't appreciate what the allies did for them in WW2? - and let us be sure not to confuse appreciation with agreeing to everything subsequent to WW2. I don't know of any of my French friends (or their families for that matter) that don't hold the war dead in the highest esteem. It's funny - you don't see the French shouting "dig up the US dead and ship them back to the US because the US are being unreasonable".

Andy

memorial to British war dead

French plea as cemetery defaced

I was waiting for that to come up! Yes, there are morons in France. However, the actions of a idiotic and vandal minded minority do not make it true that France does not - by a vast majority - honor and respect the war dead.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: Michael
Gaard - At this point, it has reminded them that they face potentially severe consequences for their actions. Many French business groups are pressuring the French government to get back aligned with the US. There has been a great deal more cooperation in the Security Council recently, for example.

Remember, one of my goals is to make the French pay a price for their actions. As I've said over and over, France can decide to do what France wants to but nothing is "free". I wanted parts of the French public to feel the result of their decisions. So far it is succeeding. Maybe they'll think harder next time.

Michael

Surely you'd be better waiting for the vindication of the action (ie WMD showing that Iraq was a major and imminent threat) before using your spending power to tell the french public "look, your decision if followed may have led to real danger" when that particular evidence isn't in yet. You never know, maybe the (forgetting oil conspiracy theory on all sides of the atlantic for one second) french public were right to decide that Iraq wasn't a threat and so therefore we should avoid a war with them at present?

I know that I can't sit all comfortable in the knowledge that the reasons for waging the war are now conclusive. I get more worried by the day that the fact that I supported military action (even though I wanted a different process leading to it - as I believed that a war would be almost inevitable anyway given Saddam's history) for the wrong reasons (ie they weren't a credible threat and certainly not anywhere near what we were led to believe).

Cheers,

Andy

It never was about WMD, that was to feed the ignorant masses. It was always about US power.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

I was waiting for that to come up! Yes, there are morons in France. However, the actions of a idiotic and vandal minded minority do not make it true that France does not - by a vast majority - honor and respect the war dead.

Cheers,

Andy

the exact same can be said of people wanting bodies to be exhumed and reburied halfway across the planet.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Michael
Fencer128 - Actually, I don't thinkt he reasons why the USA attacked Iraq start and end with WMD. France took great effort to oppose the USA. I don't care that there now is question about just how many WMD were around for this issue.

hagbard - Since most of the world makes it their business to care about what the USA does, the USA can make anything it decides is it's business an issue. So if the USA decides that tinpot dicators around Africa are something that has to go away, then it will. For the most part, they are not posing a threat to the USA. Afganistan is an example. The USA probably would have left the Taliban alone forever without the terrorism-link to the direct attack on the USA.

Plans to invade Afghanistan were in the works long before 9/11, as were plans to attack Iraq and Iran and Syria. The US government relies on public ignorance and the support of their cheerleaders in the mass media, which has thus far proven fairly effective. Like I've said since last September, first Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iran, then Syria.....The US is now officially an imperial power.