Brain(hulk?) surgeon: There's no point wearing bicycle helmets

[highland145]

a tuck and roll scenario.

LOL. You must be trolling.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You still haven't addressed the other studies I linked to.

I don't need to. I never once argued against helmets being useful and I don't know how many times I have had to say that and no doubt would have to again. I'm not playing the usual OT game of "HEY YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE STUPID". That's why I never said that all the studies you cited were wrong. I'll let others play that game.

Furthermore, your frog analogy is incredibly flawed in that there is absolutely no mechanism that would explain why the frog without limbs couldn't hear

No it's not flawed in the context of the point I'm trying to make about the study I was critical. Here's an example of what I'm referring to. If you read you'll find that the basis for the NZ law was based on a study relying to correlations rather than an analysis of data.

There is a fairly well understood, and measureable mechanism that would explain how a helmet protects a head.

People would be hard pressed to find where I said otherwise.

Though, I guess you did state that you see that helmets protect heads. So, I guess we agree.

Yes we do.

So, I guess we agree. But the rest, to me, seems to be a bit of ridiculous conjecture. We could make the same types of conjectures about seatbelts. "They don't necessarily save lives, because maybe people don't drive as much any more, and that results in..." While that conjecture might be true, I think it's fairly easily dismissed with a study of miles driven. The stats aren't as readily available, but it appears there hasn't been a sudden significant decrease in bicycle sales.

I suggest you read this and the references in the link
Apparently it's not occurred to many that there are potential problems with enacting policy. For the last time I am not arguing that helmets are a waste of time. I AM saying that using sloppy science and not considering what happens as a result is a bad thing. I wear a helmet. My family wears helmets. Why? Because whether it's 88% or 18% it seems to be a good idea for us.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Lol, how is a little bit of styrofoam on the top of your head going to protect a rider that falls and doesn't land on the top of their head? In fact, in many cases it can cause more injury because the wider brim of the helmet may actually make someone's head come into contact with the ground because they can no longer fall "correctly" with a tuck and roll scenario.

You have no clue if you think think those styrofoam hats do anything to actually prevent injury or death. Again, more for you to read with studies included

http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html

If you actually believed what's written in that link. :biggrin:

Yes, drivers will drive more closely to you b/c you're wearing a helmet, making it more dangerous. :biggrin:

 

[Capt Caveman]

Oh I quite do. First off, regular bike helmets only cover the top of the head. They do add protection to that area. Not everyone lands on top of their head when they fall. They are a small cushion, but since the surface area is smaller than a full size helmet, the force has let dispersal area. They aren't very robust in design, and will crack easily with hard impacts.

The point being is that if you are a biker wearing a styrofoam half helm hat, it is good protection if you fall off you bike riding at normal~ish speeds and happen to land at an angle that makes good use of the impact surface area of the helmet.

If you are hit by a car and thrown off your bike at high velocity and land on your head, those styrofoam helmets will do nothing. If you are doing trick jumps and such, those helmets will do nothing if you fall from a height that generates too much force for those helmets to disperse properly.

Physics I understand, you don't seem to if you think styrofoam helmets are all that great. The speeds at which they help the most can be mitigated by proper user control and body rolling to prevent the head from being impacted by anything. At speeds where the rider can't adjust to minimize impact to their head, the styrofoam hats will do little to diffuse the force of those impacts. Especially as they are going to be prone to slide around the top of the head in the first place at those forces.


I said nothing about actual motorcycle helmets. I was talking about the little styrofoam helmets bicycle riders wear. Like this:

For some reason many idiots out there think this is going to protect them from more than a slip while they are at slow speeds or stopped and bang their head on the ground when the fall. It does wonders for kids, but adults I just laugh at them. If you fall at slow speeds or from not moving and hit your hard enough to require the protection a styrofoam hat like this provides, you are doing it wrong and probably shouldn't walking around outdoors without help.

So, completely wrong. All I can do is :biggrin: at you.

 

[HumblePie]

LOL. You must be trolling.

http://www.wikihow.com/Fall-Safely

Not exactly how I was taught, but it works. Have you never learned how to properly fall? You can survive falls from greater heights, and make falls without injury that would cause someone who isn't trained to injure themselves seriously from the same fall distance.

Knowing how to fall while protecting yourself from a crash on a bike that involves no motor vehicle is going to prevent more possible injuries than a styrofoam hat.

Otherwise point to me a conclusive study that shows that styrofoam hats prevent serious head injury that isn't that horrible 1989 study that didn't actually measure anyone wearing such helmets and use pure conjecture for it's outcome. Which is why the CDC and NHTSA both repealed all mentioned citations of that study when challenged.

 

[HumblePie]

So, completely wrong. All I can do is :biggrin: at you.

Full helmets will help the bolded, a little styrofoam hat has as much protection in those scenarios as a tin foil hat has stopping evil government microwaves from controlling your brain. But hey, if you like wearing both of them because you think they work I guess more power to you.

 

[highland145]

The 3 significant crashes I've had, I was on the ground before I knew it. I fell the proper way, the Newton way. Thankfully, Newton believed in helmets. Other than that, trails and such, it wasn't significant because I saw it coming.

Maybe Dr's story was b.s. too. Didn't happen or he could have rolled the proper way. Right.... He's one of the truth speakers around here.


I still say you're trolling or have zero experience.

 

[HumblePie]

The 3 significant crashes I've had, I was on the ground before I knew it. I fell the proper way, the Newton way. Thankfully, Newton believed in helmets. Other than that, trails and such, it wasn't significant because I saw it coming.

Maybe Dr's story was b.s. too. Didn't happen or he could have rolled the proper way. Right.... He's one of the truth speakers around here.


I still say you're trolling or have zero experience.

Your reaction time sucks then. I've flown off my bike face forward while attempting to jump over a dumpster after reaching 30+ mph as a kid and going up a ramp. Missed the jump. Back of the bike got caught which stopped the forward momentum of the bike but not me. Still had plenty of time to fall properly and come out of the fall from greater than 8 feet high with minor bruises and scratches. And this wasn't a fluke. I've done similar many times.

Training is what makes you fall the proper way every single time regardless of the amount of time you have. Panic reaction is what makes you fall incorrectly and be injured by the fall. I seriously was practicing falling and diving in various ways hundreds of times at one point. You practice so you don't have to think in the little time you have. You react.

The average biker on a ride around their neighborhood isn't exceeding 10mph the vast majority of time. Falls from such speeds aren't going to cause serious injury with or without a helmet. Unless somehow the rider actually tries to land on their head/neck directly. Styrofoam hats are only going to maybe protect against abrasions on the top of your head assuming you manage to somehow end up that way. It's very rare to end up in a bike crash on top of your head at low speeds. The human body just doesn't have the capacity to flip around that fast if you are properly seated on a bike. You are too low to the ground with most of your moment going forward. The most likely crashes from bicycles are to fall over sideways, which no one is going to land on their head doing so unless something like a car smacks them and propels them outwards with ejection type of force, or from falling out forward after the bike reaches a sudden stop but the rider doesn't.

In the later scenario, riders do two things. They fall incorrectly by splaying out their hands and feet while usually trying to look up. That can cause serious wrist, arm, and ankle injury, as well as possible face injury. Or they tuck and roll properly and negate most if not all injury. Those that flip over are those going at excessive speeds and try to maintain too much grip on the handle bars. Those riders may flip over due to a sudden stop. Still the likelyhood of landing on your head in such a case is extreme rare as most riders will continue holding on and do a full flip. Which makes their backside land on the front of their tire.

About the rarest case of a possible injury after being propelled forward on a bike by a sudden stop is to have the bike flip over on top of the rider. In that SMALL case, the styrofoam helmet may prevent a possible serious head injury if the bike tries to land on top of the head of a rider that fell improperly with their body splayed and heads up (ie their chins are resting on the ground).

 

[Capt Caveman]

Full helmets will help the bolded, a little styrofoam hat has as much protection in those scenarios as a tin foil hat has stopping evil government microwaves from controlling your brain. But hey, if you like wearing both of them because you think they work I guess more power to you.

So, when I was downhill mtbing and went over the handlebars and slammed my forehead into a boulder, splitting my helmet in two and leaving a huge welt on my forehead. The MDs saying that the helmet saved my life and that I was able to walk away with only a head contusion are wrong and you're right. Yes! :biggrin:

Some subjects you shouldn't talk about and this is one of them.

And yes, I know how to fall, landing on my shoulders and rolling but in the real world, it's not always possible. So, yes as proven by study after study, bike helmets reduce brain injuries and save lives. Thanks for kind of playing.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Complete wall of bs

:biggrin:

 

[HumblePie]

So, when I was downhill mtbing and went over the handlebars and slammed my forehead into a boulder, splitting my helmet in two and leaving a huge welt on my forehead. The MDs saying that the helmet saved my life and that I was able to walk away with only a head contusion are wrong and you're right. Yes! :biggrin:

Some subjects you shouldn't talk about and this is one of them.

And yes, I know how to fall, landing on my shoulders and rolling but in the real world, it's not always possible. So, yes as proven by study after study, bike helmets reduce brain injuries and save lives. Thanks for kind of playing.

If you were mountain biking in a such a situation that would result in a injury due to a great fall, then you need to be wearing a helmet. DUH. And a full one, not a styrofoam helmet.

Also, your example is one of uneven terrain, which can allow a rider to be put into a condition where a fall may make them land directly on their head. Riding on a flat even road the styrofoam hats do nothing. Also, do you know the minimal amount of force it typically takes to crack one of those silly hats? Not much at all. Far less than your actual head can withstand before cracking usually. Still, if a direct head impact occurs, it absorbs some minor force of the impact which does make your head take less as well.

As for my comments, just go do some google research of why there are many people pushing back against mandatory helmet laws for these silly little styrofoam hats on the road. Along with the accompanying research that supports the positions. Much of which were in the links I provided or in other links in this thread. As well as those talked about by the Neuro surgeon in the OP. Like you have more creds to talk about preventative head injury than he does. Fucking moron.

 

[FleshLight]

While descending a mountain road at 35 mph, I remember seeing a bunch of dirt and gravel on a curve that had a vehicle turnout area (cars kick dirt onto the road when they reenter the highway). All I remember was entering the apex of the turn and saying, "oh shit". Then I woke up in a stretcher in an ambulance which had to drive a mile down the mountain where a helicopter could land and transport me to the hospital.

I was wearing a UVEX boss race helmet which cracked on the side and probably saved my life. Bike was cracked in the top tube but everything else was okay.

 

[HumblePie]

While descending a mountain road at 35 mph, I remember seeing a bunch of dirt and gravel on a curve that had a vehicle turnout area (cars kick dirt onto the road when they reenter the highway). All I remember was entering the apex of the turn and saying, "oh shit". Then I woke up in a stretcher in an ambulance which had to drive a mile down the mountain where a helicopter could land and transport me to the hospital.

I was wearing a UVEX boss race helmet which cracked on the side and probably saved my life. Bike was cracked in the top tube but everything else was okay.

Yay for anecdotal evidence! Thanks for bringing up what is not being discussed here. Which is going down a mountain side on uneven terrain with a sudden stop at that speed had enough force to flip you over completely. Such a scenario has greater potential to land you at an impact that would be possibly on top of your head in the very small way a helmet of that type would provide any sort of protection. Still, for mountain biking, it would be far better and safer to have used a full face helmet instead. You could have easily landed differently in a way that such a half helmet would have provided little to no protection and you would have been dead or seriously injured.

If you are doing very risky things on your bike like jumping tricks, extreme speeds 20+ mph, or mountain biking you need to be wearing a helmet. And more than likely a full face one if you are going to wear one at all.

If you are riding around on the streets near your house, a helmet isn't going to do much if you fall and nothing if a car hits you.

 

[FleshLight]

Yay for anecdotal evidence! Thanks for bringing up what is not being discussed here. Which is going down a mountain side on uneven terrain with a sudden stop at that speed had enough force to flip you over completely. Such a scenario has greater potential to land you at an impact that would be possibly on top of your head in the very small way a helmet of that type would provide any sort of protection. Still, for mountain biking, it would be far better and safer to have used a full face helmet instead. You could have easily landed differently in a way that such a half helmet would have provided little to no protection and you would have been dead or seriously injured.

If you are doing very risky things on your bike like jumping tricks, extreme speeds 20+ mph, or mountain biking you need to be wearing a helmet. And more than likely a full face one if you are going to wear one at all.

If you are riding around on the streets near your house, a helmet isn't going to do much if you fall and nothing if a car hits you.

I was on a road bike.

 

[HumblePie]

I was on a road bike.

And that makes a difference how? You were riding on a steep surface doing downhill. It's not a mostly even or flat road. You have enough time due to speed and distance from a fall for the human body to flip over enough so you would land on top of your head. Which is the only time such a almost half helmet like you were wearing would provide any sort of protection. A full face helmet would have provided that SAME protection and more in the case you didn't completely flip over and landed on your face instead.

 

[FleshLight]

And that makes a difference how? You were riding on a steep surface doing downhill. It's not a mostly even or flat road. You have enough time due to speed and distance from a fall for the human body to flip over enough so you would land on top of your head. Which is the only time such a almost half helmet like you were wearing would provide any sort of protection. A full face helmet would have provided that SAME protection and more in the case you didn't completely flip over and landed on your face instead.

The helmet distributed the force of the impact over a larger surface area as it is designed to.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The helmet distributed the force of the impact over a larger surface area as it is designed to.

What would be nice is if there were public reports of specific helmet designs tested rigorously under different crash conditions. Is there such a database? Just how much protection does a given helmet provide under X conditions? I'd love to know just that.

 

[HumblePie]

What would be nice is if there were public reports of specific helmet designs tested rigorously under different crash conditions. Is there such a database? Just how much protection does a given helmet provide under X conditions? I'd love to know just that.

The NHTSA has no problem spending thousands every year to test crash a crap ton of cars and their safety equipment, but has never done a single crash test of popular bicycle "safety" gear on the road. I wonder why.....

 

[StinkyPinky]

All I know is that when my brother was a kid the breaks failed on his bike and he went screaming into a tree and hit a pointed branch at high speed. THe branch went into the helmet and just missed piercing the thing entirely. Without that helmet that would have gone into his head. His skull would have likely stopped it but it would have caused one hell of a head gash.

It's possible these things may not stop high impact injuries but they do definitely stop a lot of moderate to minor injuries which is still important.

 

[HumblePie]

All I know is that when my brother was a kid the breaks failed on his bike and he went screaming into a tree and hit a pointed branch at high speed. THe branch went into the helmet and just missed piercing the thing entirely. Without that helmet that would have gone into his head. His skull would have likely stopped it but it would have caused one hell of a head gash.

It's possible these things may not stop high impact injuries but they do definitely stop a lot of moderate to minor injuries which is still important.

It would have been better had he swerved instead of crashing into the tree because he panicked.

Still, I advocate for children to wear helmets because they are less likely to be trained/skilled enough to handle a situation where they fall or even do a few more risky behaviors with their bikes when they reach teenage years.

Riding along a road at normal speeds from 5-15mph and falling, the chance of hitting your head is very slim. If you know how to fall properly the chance is zero. Literally zero. Not figuratively, but literally. Wearing such a helmet actually makes it harder to fall properly to protect yourself and may actually cause you further injury (although it should be serious) when falling in such a scenario.

If you are careening off a mountain side at high speeds wear a helmet. If you are doing stupid stunt trick involving great heights or great speeds, wear a helmet. If you are child learning to ride or doing stupid tricks to impress friends then wear a helmet. In all those mentioned cases I would recommend a helmet far more robust than a silly hat cushion.

If you are riding down a street not looking to do dangerous stunts or go at stupid speeds, the most dangerous scenario that is likely to occur is a motor vehicle hitting you while riding. In that case, a half helmet still isn't going to likely save you from serious injury or death.

 

[MongGrel]

The 3 significant crashes I've had, I was on the ground before I knew it. I fell the proper way, the Newton way. Thankfully, Newton believed in helmets. Other than that, trails and such, it wasn't significant because I saw it coming.

Maybe Dr's story was b.s. too. Didn't happen or he could have rolled the proper way. Right.... He's one of the truth speakers around here.


I still say you're trolling or have zero experience.

While descending a mountain road at 35 mph, I remember seeing a bunch of dirt and gravel on a curve that had a vehicle turnout area (cars kick dirt onto the road when they reenter the highway). All I remember was entering the apex of the turn and saying, "oh shit". Then I woke up in a stretcher in an ambulance which had to drive a mile down the mountain where a helicopter could land and transport me to the hospital.

I was wearing a UVEX boss race helmet which cracked on the side and probably saved my life. Bike was cracked in the top tube but everything else was okay.

All I know is that when my brother was a kid the breaks failed on his bike and he went screaming into a tree and hit a pointed branch at high speed. THe branch went into the helmet and just missed piercing the thing entirely. Without that helmet that would have gone into his head. His skull would have likely stopped it but it would have caused one hell of a head gash.

It's possible these things may not stop high impact injuries but they do definitely stop a lot of moderate to minor injuries which is still important.

You are just being a bit ignorant at this point, Humble.

 

[highland145]

:biggrin:

LOL...new sig.

Humble the troll.

 

[DrPizza]

The NHTSA has no problem spending thousands every year to test crash a crap ton of cars and their safety equipment, but has never done a single crash test of popular bicycle "safety" gear on the road. I wonder why.....

http://www.helmets.org/standard.htm
I don't think the umbrella of "national highway traffic..." necessarily covers bicycles. Nonetheless, there's another organization that tests the helmets.

 

[HumblePie]

http://www.helmets.org/standard.htm
I don't think the umbrella of "national highway traffic..." necessarily covers bicycles. Nonetheless, there's another organization that tests the helmets.

They test structural strength of those helmets, which isn't as much as many people think. They don't test crash scenario or likely scenarios like the NTHSA does for car safety equipment. They make sure helmets can be dropped a few feet on top of a hard surface and not break. That's not exactly inspiring in terms of providing protection.

As I have pointed out, and you can easily watch youtube videos of people wiping out on bicycles, the majority of accidents where the rider is ejected from the bike, they do not land directly on their head when they are riding along a flat surface. Their heads almost never hit the ground. Now when you watch videos of people doing stunt tricks, mountain biking, BMX events, and other stuff where there are large elevation changes or trees all around, there are accidents where people can land on their head due to enough the nature of those accidents. They don't always land on their head, but there is a higher chance of that happening. Even still, the majority of people in those wipe out bike videos in those scenarios are wearing full face helmets for a reason. As those provide the extra protection needed for those higher risk scenarios in the case of such an accident.

Riding along a mostly flat roadway system with a normal roadbike, the chances of ever landing on your head even if you fall are so remote that even bothering to wear any helmet is a waste of time. The possible damage that could occur from an accident in such a situation is minimal and not enough to incur serious head injury. The only major worry a bike rider in that situation has to worry about is being hit by a car. Of which a styrofoam hat isn't going to protect a bike rider from a car riding them over.

Oh and highland, you are the troll if you think that you can dismiss any of the things I wrote in here with actual links to back up my claims just because you "say so." You argue like a moron. If you can prove that styrofoam hats are actually provide a really good level of protection for the average street bike rider please do so. So far you and no one else ever has.

 

[Muse]

The best injury prevention strategy when riding a bike is not to have an accident. Yes, that would seem to be prema facie obvious, but people often don't ride quite like that. I see people doing things I used to do but no longer, such as riding busy commuter streets with cars whizzing by them on the left, parked cars whizzing past them on the right by less than 2 feet, even as little as 1 foot. That scenario alone has the makings of an accident to be, it's just a question of how soon, and it's apt to be not long.

When I see people wearing bike helmets, and it's probably the majority of riders in my vicinity, my take is quite often that they are conforming to community standards of behavior/dress, not that they are self aware or particularly aware of the nature of their surroundings.