Breaking- Church shooting in TX

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Been covered. Was a bad conduct discharge. Doesn't carry immediate weapons ban. And even though he was court martialed for domestic violence which would bar ownership if a civilian charge and served a year, apparently it doesn't translate out of the military with the discharge to an ownership ban.

Seems like a good time to amend either military code of justice to move assault on women and children to dishonorable. Or amend the 68 gun law to include a more wide range of court martial convictions to not able to buy a gun.
 
Reactions: Jaskalas
Jan 25, 2011
16,702
8,926
146
Seems like a good time to amend either military code of justice to move assault on women and children to dishonorable. Or amend the 68 gun law to include a more wide range of court martial convictions to not able to buy a gun.
I was shocked the Lautenberg Amendment didn't cover military charges. It makes absolutely no sense.
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
That's fine. Glad it worked out for you.

Two points: for every story of self defense there are countless more of murder, suicide and unintentional manslaughter. As a society overall from a utilitarian point of view, we are not winning based on this sort of trade. Furthermore no one is saying don't carry a pistol. We are saying let's at least look as to whether people should be allowed to carry assault rifles and semiautomatics built for battlefields.

And there are mechanisms to get the guns back. People respond to incentives even if at baseline there is some irrationality to their actions.

Honestly the most defensible position in the gun control debate is that whilst it's a noisy and charged issue, as a cause of death its just not that big a deal compared to say everything else (similarly to say how terrorism is such a noisy issue but really is not a threat on your life percentage wise).

Do you really think most people 'on your side' are ok with citizens carrying a pistol?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,752
28,946
136
Time for politicians to stop talking about prayer. These people were in the midst of prayer and were mowed down. What did it do for them?

Prayer is for citizens. Politicians need to get off their hypocritical asses and do something about guns.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,079
136
If you get a dishonorable discharge you can go back later and ask for a review board to have it changed. Some people are successful.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,752
28,946
136
stripping someone of their rights requires a good reason, and where you set the bar for "(insert issue) is bad enough to warrant removing a right"?

i'm not saying it can't be done, only that if you put it in the same context of "mentally unstable people aren't allowed to vote" (because voting is also a right), how you define "mentally unstable" becomes a very challenging thing to without excluding a huge amount of the population (about 16% take some sort of medication for mental-health-related issues).

other factors are the poor state of mental healthcare in america, as well as our cultural attitude towards it.
Of course it can be done. The 1st amendment has limits
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
So, you're comfortable with only the government having guns with Trump in the White House. Have I got it right?
Lest the armed masses can no longer rise up violently against the government? I don't think that's what the framers had in mind, but it's yet another justification for being armed.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Been covered. Was a bad conduct discharge. Doesn't carry immediate weapons ban. And even though he was court martialed for domestic violence which would bar ownership if a civilian charge and served a year, apparently it doesn't translate out of the military with the discharge to an ownership ban.
"Bad conduct" seems less than honorable, but I guess not "dishonorable."
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
From personal curiosity, I actually support the right of a well regulated militia to bear arms in defense of liberty, but if ability to bear arms against the government is one of the fundamental rights in the US Constitution, via the Second Amendment, why does US law not only explicitly prohibit it, but also strips one of US citizenship for doing so?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
...committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Not your idea of a terrorist, but that's a mental disorder in its own right. The Columbine shooters were white, but they were certainly terrorists, just not with the political agenda you have in mind when you label someone a terrorist. It's the guns. If people didn't have access to guns this shit wouldn't be happening. Is it still possible to have mass murders without guns, sure, but it's way way way more difficult and they would be very rare compared to what's happening all the time in America now.

Some day, in 500 years, people are going to look back on us and think we were lunatics with our gun fetishes.
Or we'll be fighting over phaser control.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
From personal curiosity, I actually support the right of a well regulated militia to bear arms in defense of liberty, but if ability to bear arms against the government is one of the fundamental rights in the US Constitution, via the Second Amendment, why does US law not only explicitly prohibit it, but also strips one of US citizenship for doing so?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

Are you really asking why a govt would make treason\insurrection against it illegal?
 
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bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Please answer my question...

How are you going to get the guns out the hands of criminals who have no problem breaking the law? Liberals are always spouting the numbers of those who are murdered by guns and the majority of those homicides are criminal gang members. So please tell us how you are going to the guns out of their hands? If you can do this, I am pretty sure those numbers that that are constantly being spouted will do down dramatically since those gang bangers wont be able to shoot each other anymore....

Do you think they will turn in guns to a buy back program? or they will be scared that of laws that make guns illegal?
Exactly. Their ubiquity makes them uncontrollable.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
A neighbor nears the church with a gun intervened and the shooter ran away and then allegedly shot himself dead.

Funk ass coward fled and ran away like a bitch when another good gun owner confronted him.

A local resident grabbed his own rifle and engaged the gunman, said Freeman Martin, the regional director of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

"The suspect dropped his rifle, which was a Ruger AR assault-type rifle and fled from the church," said Martin, adding that the resident then chased the gunman.

Funny how the anti 2A fools "forgot" to mention that.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting-resident-action/
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,671
136
We tried the wild wild west thing years ago, even then the population knew more citizens with guns walking around doesn't work and is a danger to society.
 
Reactions: bradly1101

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,752
28,946
136
Jan 25, 2011
16,702
8,926
146

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
From personal curiosity, I actually support the right of a well regulated militia to bear arms in defense of liberty, but if ability to bear arms against the government is one of the fundamental rights in the US Constitution, via the Second Amendment, why does US law not only explicitly prohibit it, but also strips one of US citizenship for doing so?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

The second amendment was designed to protect the American govt against other states, not as a means to change our own govt. They had a romantic notion that militias were an effective counter to professional armies. The war of 1812 put that to rest.
 
Reactions: bradly1101 and pmv

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,868
1,516
126
i am 42 years old, have lived much of my life in the city, in areas you would likely consider ghetto, yet i have never had a gun pulled on me, not even once.

sounds like you live a life of irrational fear.

Why don't your tell your anecdotal story to all of those who have been victims of home invasions or have been assaulted with a deadly weapon...It only takes one time to become a statistic and some would like to be prepared for that situation while others like yourself would rather not...

Pretty hilarious that you think the entire country should live based solely on your experiences though....
 
Reactions: bradly1101

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,131
37,422
136
Funk ass coward fled and ran away like a bitch when another good gun owner confronted him.



Funny how the anti 2A fools "forgot" to mention that.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting-resident-action/

Did the other armed person perhaps save some lives? Sure, I'd accept that argument. A couple dozen people are still dead and the same injured. The outcome may have just been only slightly less horrible. I don't love setting the bar this low.

As a responsible gun owner I have serious problems with someone like this shooter getting firearms to begin with. His discharge and abuse problems should be sufficient cause to prohibit him from ownership. As to the weapons used there is certainly a common theme of what been utilized used in mass shootings in recent years. While I think the 2A does guarantee a personal right to own firearms that right is not unrestricted and serious consideration should be given to outlawing semi-automatic weapons IMO. This would impact me personally as I own quite a few but it's impossible to ignore or rationalize away the consequences of them being so widely available.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
From personal curiosity, I actually support the right of a well regulated militia to bear arms in defense of liberty, but if ability to bear arms against the government is one of the fundamental rights in the US Constitution, via the Second Amendment, why does US law not only explicitly prohibit it, but also strips one of US citizenship for doing so?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

That's because the second amendment isn't about individual rights, its about states rights.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,673
26,796
136
Why don't your tell your anecdotal story to all of those who have been victims of home invasions or have been assaulted with a deadly weapon...It only takes one time to become a statistic and some would like to be prepared for that situation while others like yourself would rather not...

Pretty hilarious that you think the entire country should live based solely on your experiences though....

Go read the Vegas thread plenty of info there about how gun ownership is more dangerous.
 
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