Breaking: Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood

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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Why would he need to produce a petition, if its the accepted theory?
He'd need to provide a massive petition to support is "vast majority of all structural engineers", but can't even prove that a simple majority has taken a serious look at the evidence, so they can't rightly be included as having accepted the physically impossible currently accepted theory.

By definition your truther petition is a list of engineers that disagree with this accepted and proven theory.This list of "credentialed internet engineers" is so small in comparison to the number of real architects and engineers that exist, that all it proves is that there are more people like you in our country that cant understand basic logic, science, and math.
Sure, like geocentrism was a proven theory, and Galileo and his few supporters were the 15th century equivalent of "internet" astronomers. Seriously, if you think you've got anything more than handwaving, feel free to demonstrate as much by addressing the logical implications of WTC's period of free fall in this thread. Until then your are taking a position of faith by burring your head in the sand to avoid the facts, and flapping your feathers at me for not doing the same.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Then why haven't you been shot yet? You and your kind are doing far more damage to this country than Hasan ever could. You're making it's citizens little robot pussies who cower in their homes, stroking their guns, listening to sociopathic corporate prostitutes tell them they should be worried about when the brown people are going to get them.
Somebody please ban this nut case.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,954
49,680
136
You claimed "the vast majority of all structural engineers", but when asked how you substantiate your claim, you simply cite the lack of "a single structural engineering department of any university or any major structural engineering group" acknowledging the fact that the buildings were rigged to come down. So, you can't even show a simple majority, let alone a vast one, even took a serious look at the evidence, yet you play make-believe in claiming otherwise as an excuse to avoid doing so yourself.

Seriously, here is a list of architects and engineers who have come to terms with the fact that the official story is flagrantly false, I highly doubt you can product list of credentialed people anywhere that long who will sign their name to the contrary. Put simply, you've got little more than smoke and mirrors.

What sort of moon logic are you using? (Speaking of that, do you believe the moon landing was faked?)

Two things: First of all of course I meant the structural engineers who had examined the data. If they hadn't examined what happened, their opinions aren't that much better than ours. People don't make petitions to sign onto the fact that they agree with common knowledge... what planet do you live on? Does every scientist have to sign a paper saying they agree with gravity? What I DO know is that the only times engineering professionals have come out as 9/11 truthers, the engineering departments at their colleges HAVE come out with statements disavowing their views.

Even though your internet petition that anyone can sign which includes large numbers of electrical engineers, aerospace engineers, and other sorts of unrelated fields that does zero checking of the credentials of anyone is compelling evidence, I'm still looking for you to find a single solitary reputable engineering entity that endorses your view. JUST ONE.

While you do that I will search for a petition of scientists that say they believe in gravity, I am a gravity truther and think the government is holding us to the earth with an invisible hand on each of our heads. Seriously, do you think the moon landing happened?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
What sort of moon logic are you using? (Speaking of that, do you believe the moon landing was faked?)

Two things: First of all of course I meant the structural engineers who had examined the data. If they hadn't examined what happened, their opinions aren't that much better than ours. People don't make petitions to sign onto the fact that they agree with common knowledge... what planet do you live on? Does every scientist have to sign a paper saying they agree with gravity? What I DO know is that the only times engineering professionals have come out as 9/11 truthers, the engineering departments at their colleges HAVE come out with statements disavowing their views.

Even though your internet petition that anyone can sign which includes large numbers of electrical engineers, aerospace engineers, and other sorts of unrelated fields that does zero checking of the credentials of anyone is compelling evidence, I'm still looking for you to find a single solitary reputable engineering entity that endorses your view. JUST ONE.

While you do that I will search for a petition of scientists that say they believe in gravity, I am a gravity truther and think the government is holding us to the earth with an invisible hand on each of our heads. Seriously, do you think the moon landing happened?

LOL! You know, I THOUGHT I felt something on my head!

People who believe WTC7 was a controlled demolition know nothing about controlled demolition. It requires removing the concrete or other fire-proofing from around the columns on every floor - most of which would require significant demolition since the object of high-rise architecture is to NOT have exposed columns standing about - and attaching precisely designed charges with precisely measured conductors out to a central detonator array. The only way the people in the building would not notice that would be if they were all 9/11 Truthers. LOL Also, when Rosie O'Donnell said 9/11 was the first time fire ever melted steel, she forgot to mention that the world's girder forests are rapidly being depleted. If only there were some way we could melt steel and form it into shapes. Nah, that's crazy talk . . .

I'm seriously worried Hasan is going to get off on an insanity plea. CIA, FBI, and Army investigated this guy and did nothing, even though they found and have since reported the attempts to contact al Qaeda, contacts with radical Muslim leaders associated with the 9/11 terrorists, and tons of anti-American rhetoric well documented and in front of numerous witnesses. This makes all these people look very, very bad, refusing to do their jobs because of fears of being called bigots or racists (assuming we can call Palestinians a different race; Hasan is pretty much the same skin tone as am I.) But if this can be spun as a sudden attack of insanity - that his shooting forty-one infidels while shouting "Allahu akbar" had nothing to do with his well-documented radical Islamic views - then none of these people can be faulted because no one could possibly have predicted or prevented this.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I doubt he'll get off. The public outrage would be too much to handle. Latest news is he's now charged with 13 counts premeditated murder with more charges possible. All in a military court, and we haven't executed anybody in military court in like 50 years...I believe it takes presidential approval to do so (read somewhere).
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,630
7,681
136
I doubt he'll get off. The public outrage would be too much to handle. Latest news is he's now charged with 13 counts premeditated murder with more charges possible. All in a military court, and we haven't executed anybody in military court in like 50 years...I believe it takes presidential approval to do so (read somewhere).

Curious topic... on the chances of whether he'll be executed or not.

I do not believe Obama would do that, if it's his decision.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Just what do you suggest we do? In the assassination of Dr. Tiller, Christianity was a primary motivation. What are you going to do, ban Christianity? Religion makes people do insane things, and this won't be the last time. Whatever steps you would take would almost certainly end up being counterproductive, alienating decent Muslims while doing nothing to suppress the crazy ones.

Not to mention discriminating against someone based on their religion goes against pretty much the entire point of America, and would be a direct assault on the Constitution that every member of the service is sworn to protect.
I never suggested any such thing. I only contend that Islam, as a factor in this man's actions, not be ignored for the sake of political correctness. As we analyze all of the various aspects in any such case, it must remain at the top of the list as playing a vital role in his psyche.

Ignoring it as a factor in the analysis of the attack would itself be criminal.

Now, what should we do about it? That's a damn fine question. But, I certainly never suggested, nor would I suggest, any of the nonsense you listed.

Are you a drama-queen too?
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Versus the conservative position: Christian + killer = murderer. Muslim + killer = jihadist terrorist. Amirite?
Is the Christian committing his crimes in the name of Christianity, in pronounced service to his God, to cause terror, and making each of these purposes known as his primary motivations? If so, then yes, he too is a "terrorist."

What makes you think he wouldn't be?

Short of imprisoning people for "pre-crime", you can't do anything about it.
Bullshit. He could have been, and should have been, chaptered out of the service longer before this incident.

The fact that he wasn't is more than likely based on is colleagues' perceived fears of prosecution for making "politically incorrect" statements against the Major's character.

Shame, isn't it?
 
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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
(Speaking of that, do you believe the moon landing was faked?)
No, I don't, as I've yet to see any evidence to reasonably suggest the moon landing was anything but real. I've seen plenty of arguments from people who claim otherwise, not a sensible argument among them. Do you actually understand why the arguments people make to claim the moon landing was faked are wrong, or do you just believe they are wrong as a matter of faith?

First of all of course I meant the structural engineers who had examined the data.
Well then, name names so we can look at their arguments, and compare their numbers to those of those who argue otherwise.

If they hadn't examined what happened, their opinions aren't that much better than ours.
Exactly, and that is where "the vast majority of all structural engineers" likely are in regard to the WTC's period of free fall acceleration. Even NIST refused to look at it until David Chandler pressured them into it around a year ago.

People don't make petitions to sign onto the fact that they agree with common knowledge... what planet do you live on? Does every scientist have to sign a paper saying they agree with gravity?
The problem is that what you are referring to as "common knowledge" disagrees with how the laws of gravity effect mass on this planet.

What I DO know is that the only times engineering professionals have come out as 9/11 truthers, the engineering departments at their colleges HAVE come out with statements disavowing their views.
There has been some of that, and that is all you've got, people in disavowing others out of an inability to refute their arguments.

Even though your internet petition that anyone can sign which includes large numbers of electrical engineers, aerospace engineers, and other sorts of unrelated fields that does zero checking of the credentials of anyone...
Try signing it yourself and you'll find they do check. Without the credentials to demonstrate a thorough education in physics which is required to become and architect or an engineer, you aren't going to get your name on that list.

...is compelling evidence, I'm still looking for you to find a single solitary reputable engineering entity that endorses your view.
I never claimed one, as I know they are all averse to considering anything but the official myth. My "view" is based on the video evidence of free fall and the logical implications of that. I don't give a shit if I was the only one speaking up about the matter. Facts are facts, and while you may not have the competence to address the facts yourself, that is no excuse you to ah heck me with vacant appeals to authority.

People who believe WTC7 was a controlled demolition know nothing about controlled demolition.
I know enough about controlled demolition to know it is highly unlikely that WTC7 was brought down with anything like a traditional controlled demolition, but I also know far more than enough about physics to know you can't make a structure even reasonably resembling that of a building free fall without somehow rigging it to do so. The claim that fire caused the building to come down as it did just as absurd as claiming the wind built it, neither are physically possible. While I understand that those who never took an interest in learning how the laws of physics work and how they don't may not be able to respect that analogy, it would be nice if you could at least respect the facts that your rebuttals don't address the evidence I refer to.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
This thread-crapping truther nonsense needs to stop. Whatever happened to the sticky 9/11 nutcases thread here wherein these fools are supposed to post their bullshit and argue with their own multiple personalities instead of annoying us in every other thread?

Someone needs to bring back that thread...
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Someone else brought 9/11 into this thread, and I asked people to put WTC7 discussion in the WTC7 thread, but they responded here anyway, so I replied here as well.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,954
49,680
136
/facepalm

You're right, there's really no explanation other than teams of dozens if not hundreds of workers strategically weakening support beams, rigging thousands of pounds of explosives in busy office buildings without a single witness to their action, and having these explosives survive an impact by a huge jetliner all so that they could start a controlled demolition of the buildings that just happened to start from the point where the jets impacted. Did these shadowy government operatives paint a bullseye on the side of WTC 1 and 2 so the terrorists knew just where to hit? Because... damn. Then again, this has to be true. You saw the video on Youtube and you're a self proclaimed engineer/physicist. More people telling you are wrong is just more evidence of the conspiracy.

Oh, and about that petition. They are such thorough checkers of engineering certifications that people like the mighty Dennis Salisbury and his BS in Business Administration are on the list, Fernando Morales the computer science major, Nils Johnson (no credentials listed), and others. Truly a whos-who.

Forget it, I won't debate the 9/11 conspiracy bullshit with you any more because I feel myself getting stupider by listening to it. Ockham's Razor is your friend, I suggest you use it.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
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/facepalm

You're right, there's really no explanation other than teams of dozens if not hundreds of workers strategically weakening support beams, rigging thousands of pounds of explosives in busy office buildings without a single witness to their action, and having these explosives survive an impact by a huge jetliner all so that they could start a controlled demolition of the buildings that just happened to start from the point where the jets impacted. Did these shadowy government operatives paint a bullseye on the side of WTC 1 and 2 so the terrorists knew just where to hit? Because... damn. Then again, this has to be true. You saw the video on Youtube and you're a self proclaimed engineer/physicist. More people telling you are wrong is just more evidence of the conspiracy.

Oh, and about that petition. They are such thorough checkers of engineering certifications that people like the mighty Dennis Salisbury and his BS in Business Administration are on the list, Fernando Morales the computer science major, Nils Johnson (no credentials listed), and others. Truly a whos-who.

Forget it, I won't debate the 9/11 conspiracy bullshit with you any more because I feel myself getting stupider by listening to it. Ockham's Razor is your friend, I suggest you use it.
Why don't you two quit derailing this thread and get a room?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Is the Christian committing his crimes in the name of Christianity, in pronounced service to his God, to cause terror, and making each of these purposes known as his primary motivations? If so, then yes, he too is a "terrorist."

What makes you think he wouldn't be?

Bullshit. He could have been, and should have been, chaptered out of the service longer before this incident.

The fact that he wasn't is more than likely based on is colleagues' perceived fears of prosecution for making "politically incorrect" statements against the Major's character.

Shame, isn't it?
He asked to get out of the military before his deployment. The military wanted to recoup their investment. It had nothing to do with political incorrectness, and everything to do with the stubbornness of the military to release conscientious objectors.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Please stop derailing this thread with WTC7 and 'truther' stuff immediately.

TIA

Fern
Super Moderator
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
He asked to get out of the military before his deployment. The military wanted to recoup their investment. It had nothing to do with political incorrectness, and everything to do with the stubbornness of the military to release conscientious objectors.
And what would be the basis of his conscientious objection? That it was against his conscientious to kill Muslims...but everyone else...well that's OK?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Please stop derailing this thread with WTC7 and 'truther' stuff immediately.
Please note that I was not the one who brought 9/11 into this thread, I previously suggested that WTC7 discussion should go in the appropriate thread, and I only kept responding here because this is where the arguments were being made.

Anyway, I quoted some of the above comments to reply in the WTC7 thread.

I said "stop posting about WTC7", I didn't say stop unless you wanna defend yourself or explain why you posted about it etc.

If I see the word "WTC7" or anything like it in one of your posts in this thread again you'll be vacationed faster then that building fell. "Stop" means stop.

Fern
Super Moderator
 
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GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
No one, including spidey07, has given a definition of "terrorism" yet (still). Without a definition of terrorism, it's kind of stupid to randomly fling the word around whenever you feel like it.

You need to define what terrorism is, so we can see if your definition is first accurate, and to see if actions like this qualify.

So what's the problem with all the people here? Afraid to define it? Afraid your definition won't match up, or even worse, it will be used against you?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
No one, including spidey07, has given a definition of "terrorism" yet (still). Without a definition of terrorism, it's kind of stupid to randomly fling the word around whenever you feel like it.

You need to define what terrorism is, so we can see if your definition is first accurate, and to see if actions like this qualify.

So what's the problem with all the people here? Afraid to define it? Afraid your definition won't match up, or even worse, it will be used against you?

Terrorism is the systematic application of tactics outside of the recognized rules of warfare and usually on non-combatants, designed to create a state of terror in order to gain a desired goal. The goals vary from group to group and place to place, but are goals the terrorists could not reasonably expect to get through courts of law or in conventional or guerrilla warfare. In the case of Islamic terrorists the goal is to terrorize non-Muslims or different sects of Muslims into yielding territory, adopting Islamic customs or Sharia law, simply not fighting back, or making peace on terms favorable to the terrorists. Methods vary also, but include striking with methods and at targets not allowable under recognized rules of warfare, especially at unarmed civilians and most especially at women and children, and in places that a substantial number of non-combatants could reasonably see themselves being. For example, killing ten people in a subway station produces a lot more terror than killing ten people at isolated fire watch towers.

In the case of Hasan, he planned his attack not on armed soldiers, but where he knew soldiers, dependents and civilians would be unarmed and unprotected. Most soldiers deploying to Afghanistan and Iraq deploy unarmed through Fort Hood, and many of their dependents will be there or at other military bases. People hearing about the terrorism will viscerally feel threatened in their workplace, where weapons are typically not carried and often not allowed. His victims included at least three murdered women, one of them a pregnant twenty-one year old bomb squad technician. Targeting unarmed women causes even more disgust and terror (in Western cultures I mean) than shooting unarmed men. (Seriously, what sort of evil pig shoots unarmed pregnant women?) Targeting unarmed people and especially women is thus a common denominator in Islamic terror attacks, whether against non-Muslims, other Muslim sects, moderate Muslims, or simply anyone who is handy. For example, blowing up a market and killing dozens of women shopping for food has zero military value but great terror value, whereas ambushing a military convoy has military value but little terror value.

In addition, Hasan did his shooting while yelling "allahu akbar" (according to bystanders), another typical trait of Muslim terrorists. And of course his aims are clear from his earlier words - to wound the American military machine and the American nation, and thereby to discourage the War of Terror because in this case the terrorists targeted are Muslim.

Again, I'm guessing by what we know of his own words, but I think I'm safe in saying that if the War of Terror had been against Basque separatists or Irish nationalists or Ulstermen, Hasan would have had no problems with it. That's conjecture, but it's supported by what we have seen and heard of his words and actions. These reasons are why I think this qualifies as terrorism - it was a cold-blooded, calculated attack on unarmed men and women designed to kill as many as possible not because it would have any military value - it obviously didn't - but to produce terror.

Non-Islamic cases of terrorism are rare at the moment, but include Irish nationalists and Ulstermen blowing up each others' pubs, Basque separatists blowing up train stations, Jewish nationalists shooting Palestinian villagers, white separatist and anarchist Timothy McVeigh blowing up the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and anti-abortionists shooting abortion doctors and into abortion clinics. In each case the military or direct value of the action was limited, but the terror produced was considerable and designed to produce a larger indirect effect by terrorizing people - just as Hasan's action, while having no measurable direct impact on the War of Terror, was designed to terrorize those fighting and supporting it. Or to put it another way - you don't yell "Allahu akbar" and shoot dozens of people because your Cheese of the Month is late.

That work for you sport?

Fear my mighty wall of text! Feel its wrath!
Or not, either works for me.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,954
49,680
136
Targeting soldiers doesn't sound much like terrorism to me. If you're in a war, targeting unarmed soldiers instead of armed ones isn't terrorism, it's called being smart. While there isn't one definitive definition of terrorism, a common element between almost all of them is the targeting of noncombatants. Calling soldiers preparing to deploy to a war noncombatants is a stretch to say the least.

It doesn't make it not MURDER and it doesn't mean that this guy shouldn't fry for what he did, but if we want the word 'terrorism' to have any meaning it's probably not a good idea to label it as broadly as 'violence we don't like'.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Terrorism is the systematic application of tactics outside of the recognized rules of warfare and usually on non-combatants, designed to create a state of terror in order to gain a desired goal. The goals vary from group to group and place to place, but are goals the terrorists could not reasonably expect to get through courts of law or in conventional or guerrilla warfare. In the case of Islamic terrorists the goal is to terrorize non-Muslims or different sects of Muslims into yielding territory, adopting Islamic customs or Sharia law, simply not fighting back, or making peace on terms favorable to the terrorists. Methods vary also, but include striking with methods and at targets not allowable under recognized rules of warfare, especially at unarmed civilians and most especially at women and children, and in places that a substantial number of non-combatants could reasonably see themselves being. For example, killing ten people in a subway station produces a lot more terror than killing ten people at isolated fire watch towers.

In the case of Hasan, he planned his attack not on armed soldiers, but where he knew soldiers, dependents and civilians would be unarmed and unprotected. Most soldiers deploying to Afghanistan and Iraq deploy unarmed through Fort Hood, and many of their dependents will be there or at other military bases. People hearing about the terrorism will viscerally feel threatened in their workplace, where weapons are typically not carried and often not allowed. His victims included at least three murdered women, one of them a pregnant twenty-one year old bomb squad technician. Targeting unarmed women causes even more disgust and terror (in Western cultures I mean) than shooting unarmed men. (Seriously, what sort of evil pig shoots unarmed pregnant women?) Targeting unarmed people and especially women is thus a common denominator in Islamic terror attacks, whether against non-Muslims, other Muslim sects, moderate Muslims, or simply anyone who is handy. For example, blowing up a market and killing dozens of women shopping for food has zero military value but great terror value, whereas ambushing a military convoy has military value but little terror value.

In addition, Hasan did his shooting while yelling "allahu akbar" (according to bystanders), another typical trait of Muslim terrorists. And of course his aims are clear from his earlier words - to wound the American military machine and the American nation, and thereby to discourage the War of Terror because in this case the terrorists targeted are Muslim.

Again, I'm guessing by what we know of his own words, but I think I'm safe in saying that if the War of Terror had been against Basque separatists or Irish nationalists or Ulstermen, Hasan would have had no problems with it. That's conjecture, but it's supported by what we have seen and heard of his words and actions. These reasons are why I think this qualifies as terrorism - it was a cold-blooded, calculated attack on unarmed men and women designed to kill as many as possible not because it would have any military value - it obviously didn't - but to produce terror.

Non-Islamic cases of terrorism are rare at the moment, but include Irish nationalists and Ulstermen blowing up each others' pubs, Basque separatists blowing up train stations, Jewish nationalists shooting Palestinian villagers, white separatist and anarchist Timothy McVeigh blowing up the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and anti-abortionists shooting abortion doctors and into abortion clinics. In each case the military or direct value of the action was limited, but the terror produced was considerable and designed to produce a larger indirect effect by terrorizing people - just as Hasan's action, while having no measurable direct impact on the War of Terror, was designed to terrorize those fighting and supporting it. Or to put it another way - you don't yell "Allahu akbar" and shoot dozens of people because your Cheese of the Month is late.

That work for you sport?

Fear my mighty wall of text! Feel its wrath!
Or not, either works for me.

I'm glad to see you included the abortion killers, and the Tim McVeighs of the world. I think a lot of posters ignore them and don't consider them terrorists.

So you can kill non-combatants, as long as you don't try to induce terror?

Would our bombing of people using the UAV's count? There are plenty of times where we have found a "person of interest", and blew them (and anyone around them) up. Is that OK? We have killed plenty of innocent women and children ourselves.

From a local point of view, they would argue that randomly dropping bombs on people is terrorism since so many innocent people are dying.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,630
7,681
136
No one, including spidey07, has given a definition of "terrorism" yet (still). Without a definition of terrorism, it's kind of stupid to randomly fling the word around whenever you feel like it.

You need to define what terrorism is, so we can see if your definition is first accurate, and to see if actions like this qualify.

So what's the problem with all the people here? Afraid to define it? Afraid your definition won't match up, or even worse, it will be used against you?

An ideological act of war or violence perpetrated by a private entity.

This was a clear act of violence and I believe it was on the basis of Major Hasan identifying with Islam instead of his country
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,954
49,680
136
An ideological act of war or violence perpetrated by a private entity.

This was a clear act of violence and I believe it was on the basis of Major Hasan identifying with Islam instead of his country

Your definition doesn't work very well. Governments can also engage in acts of terrorism. Also, all violence perpetrated by political entities like governments and many groups is ideological in one sense or another.
 
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