BREAKING: Us admits torture at Guantanamo, Afghanistan, and Iraq

[Ozoned]

Well, if our rules and actions are unacceptable, perhaps we should use the rules and actions that our adversaries prescribe to... Its all black and white, correct?

 

[Rainsford]

What I find interesting is that most of the arguments for continuing our actions with our captives seem to be based on emotion rather than logic. Logically there is very little reason to torture or mistreat captives. The argument is made that it is an effective intelligence gathering technique, but I have seen no evidence to back up that claim, and substantial reasoning that suggests information obtained this way isn't very reliable (or that there are much more effective ways). On the other hand, every discussion about this topic (including this thread) is full of emotionally charged comments about terrorists being horrible people who deserve it. And maybe they do, but that's not the point. We're not out there to punish every individual terrorist we can find, we're there to beat terrorism in general. This isn't a Bruce Willis movie, sometimes focusing on the former actually hurts our chances of accomplishing the latter.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like them any more than the rest of you guys. I'm not even convinced that they don't deserve the karma. But that's not really the point, I support the war to end terrorism, not the war on terrorists. Simply showing how pissed off you are is fine, punch a pillow or something and then get on with the actual mission. "Ending terrorism, one terrorist at a time" might sound like a cool slogan for the "Die Hard" crowd, but it doesn't seem all that effective to me.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Well, if our rules and actions are unacceptable, perhaps we should use the rules and actions that our adversaries prescribe to... Its all black and white, correct?

No...that's the point. There are more than two sides to the coin here.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Anyone who says, "who cares about these isolated incidents of torture, look what they do to us!" is no better than those we're trying to defeat in this 'war' on 'terror'.

..and if you believe that then you're as delusional as the terrorists.

/used to say the same sort of idealistic mumbo-jumbo when I was in school

Then what makes you any better than they are? And whose opinion is more juvenile: mine (maintaining the justification for attacking these people - we really are better than they are) or yours (he played dirty first, now I'll play dirty back)?

He isn't any better. Fortunately he is powerless to do harm. A powerless whack job is a frustrated one. I kind of like it

"powerless"? I'm a registered US voter.. someday when you grow up and turn 18 you'll have as much "power" as me! woo-pee!

'I do have power, I can vote, you're all kids, even though I'm the one who can't argue his position, and resorts to name calling when challenged.'

Brilliant! :disgust:

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
What I find interesting is that most of the arguments for continuing our actions with our captives seem to be based on emotion rather than logic. Logically there is very little reason to torture or mistreat captives. The argument is made that it is an effective intelligence gathering technique, but I have seen no evidence to back up that claim, and substantial reasoning that suggests information obtained this way isn't very reliable (or that there are much more effective ways). On the other hand, every discussion about this topic (including this thread) is full of emotionally charged comments about terrorists being horrible people who deserve it. And maybe they do, but that's not the point. We're not out there to punish every individual terrorist we can find, we're there to beat terrorism in general. This isn't a Bruce Willis movie, sometimes focusing on the former actually hurts our chances of accomplishing the latter.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like them any more than the rest of you guys. I'm not even convinced that they don't deserve the karma. But that's not really the point, I support the war to end terrorism, not the war on terrorists. Simply showing how pissed off you are is fine, punch a pillow or something and then get on with the actual mission. "Ending terrorism, one terrorist at a time" might sound like a cool slogan for the "Die Hard" crowd, but it doesn't seem all that effective to me.

But thinking is so much harder than getting whipped up into a frenzy by what you see on tv.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: Rainsford
What I find interesting is that most of the arguments for continuing our actions with our captives seem to be based on emotion rather than logic. Logically there is very little reason to torture or mistreat captives. The argument is made that it is an effective intelligence gathering technique, but I have seen no evidence to back up that claim, and substantial reasoning that suggests information obtained this way isn't very reliable (or that there are much more effective ways). On the other hand, every discussion about this topic (including this thread) is full of emotionally charged comments about terrorists being horrible people who deserve it. And maybe they do, but that's not the point. We're not out there to punish every individual terrorist we can find, we're there to beat terrorism in general. This isn't a Bruce Willis movie, sometimes focusing on the former actually hurts our chances of accomplishing the latter.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like them any more than the rest of you guys. I'm not even convinced that they don't deserve the karma. But that's not really the point, I support the war to end terrorism, not the war on terrorists. Simply showing how pissed off you are is fine, punch a pillow or something and then get on with the actual mission. "Ending terrorism, one terrorist at a time" might sound like a cool slogan for the "Die Hard" crowd, but it doesn't seem all that effective to me.

But thinking is so much harder than getting whipped up into a frenzy by what you see on tv.

But even what you watch on TV show encourage thinking about how to actually solve the problem. When I hear that insurgents killed some US soldiers, my first reaction isn't that we need to hurt those insurgents, my first reaction is how can we stop it from happening again. Anger is fine, and natural, but you have to move past it and look at our end goals here.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I swear I wonder what SS rank these apologists would've had in the 1930's and 40's.

wow.. how original.. more "nazi" allusions from the left.

/zzzzzz

Right wing a-holes in apologist mode over vile, disgusting acts...

Making comparisons to what happened at abu garabe or gitmo to what happened in nazi death camps or russian gulags shows your complete lack of any knowledge of history.

the comparison is how out of line with the norms the actions were
or thats how I see it

Ah yes the slaughter of millions compared to some very minor abuse. And those that did the abusing are now being punished.

You too failed to learn history.

this is very much like someone pointed to rip in another thread (cant find it sorry) about how we precieve the number of people who die from traffic accidents today and how people percieve the number of people who die from terrorist attacks

its about what people accept, people dont accept a western civilized country to keep people locked up indefinetly and subjecting them to torture, thats something the western world sees and accepts third world countries to do, but not western countries. People can identify themselves with common countries but this has created a rift between the US and the rest of the western world, which is clearly shown in the poll posted here today.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Well, if our rules and actions are unacceptable, perhaps we should use the rules and actions that our adversaries prescribe to... Its all black and white, correct?

No...that's the point. There are more than two sides to the coin here.

Well, responding to both of your posts;

The argument wouldn't exist if torture wasn't a subjective term, would it? It all boils down to what keeps you from sleeping. I am a salty old fart, just so you know...

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I swear I wonder what SS rank these apologists would've had in the 1930's and 40's.

wow.. how original.. more "nazi" allusions from the left.

/zzzzzz

Right wing a-holes in apologist mode over vile, disgusting acts...

Making comparisons to what happened at abu garabe or gitmo to what happened in nazi death camps or russian gulags shows your complete lack of any knowledge of history.

the comparison is how out of line with the norms the actions were
or thats how I see it

Ah yes the slaughter of millions compared to some very minor abuse. And those that did the abusing are now being punished.

You too failed to learn history.

this is very much like someone pointed to rip in another thread (cant find it sorry) about how we precieve the number of people who die from traffic accidents today and how people percieve the number of people who die from terrorist attacks

its about what people accept, people dont accept a western civilized country to keep people locked up indefinetly and subjecting them to torture, thats something the western world sees and accepts third world countries to do, but not western countries. People can identify themselves with common countries but this has created a rift between the US and the rest of the western world, which is clearly shown in the poll posted here today.

Most of what has been claimed is not torture. Those that have been doing the abusing, are being punished. It is simply not comparable.

 

[ValuedCustomer]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Anyone who says, "who cares about these isolated incidents of torture, look what they do to us!" is no better than those we're trying to defeat in this 'war' on 'terror'.

..and if you believe that then you're as delusional as the terrorists.

/used to say the same sort of idealistic mumbo-jumbo when I was in school

Then what makes you any better than they are? And whose opinion is more juvenile: mine (maintaining the justification for attacking these people - we really are better than they are) or yours (he played dirty first, now I'll play dirty back)?

He isn't any better. Fortunately he is powerless to do harm. A powerless whack job is a frustrated one. I kind of like it

"powerless"? I'm a registered US voter.. someday when you grow up and turn 18 you'll have as much "power" as me! woo-pee!

'I do have power, I can vote, you're all kids, even though I'm the one who can't argue his position, and resorts to name calling when challenged.'

Brilliant! :disgust:

What do you mean by "argue his position"? I've given reasons for my position to other posters (read the thread and catch-up); it's you that's playing the sanctimony-card/endorsing the tail-between-your-legs approach. And don't confuse my pragmatism/realism w/ an emotional call for pay-back like Rainsford. I've lived too long on this earth to believe that if I'd just treat people the way I wanted to be treated they'll reciprocate. It doesn't work that way, junior.. grow up.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Anyone who says, "who cares about these isolated incidents of torture, look what they do to us!" is no better than those we're trying to defeat in this 'war' on 'terror'.

..and if you believe that then you're as delusional as the terrorists.

/used to say the same sort of idealistic mumbo-jumbo when I was in school

Then what makes you any better than they are? And whose opinion is more juvenile: mine (maintaining the justification for attacking these people - we really are better than they are) or yours (he played dirty first, now I'll play dirty back)?

He isn't any better. Fortunately he is powerless to do harm. A powerless whack job is a frustrated one. I kind of like it

"powerless"? I'm a registered US voter.. someday when you grow up and turn 18 you'll have as much "power" as me! woo-pee!

So Ozoned, is this n00b one of yours?
Little does he know

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Well, if our rules and actions are unacceptable, perhaps we should use the rules and actions that our adversaries prescribe to... Its all black and white, correct?

No...that's the point. There are more than two sides to the coin here.

Well, responding to both of your posts;

The argument wouldn't exist if torture wasn't a subjective term, would it? It all boils down to what keeps you from sleeping. I am a salty old fart, just so you know...

Well yes, I suppose that's true. But you're arguing for moral relativity, something I'm not too comfortable with.

In any case, why ARE we doing it? Maybe it doesn't bother you, but given your language, it seems to make you feel better, but does little else. What is the reason we're actually doing that stuff, I wonder? That was sort of my point, we should need a better reason than revenge. Especially when that revenge might hurt our overall mission.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I swear I wonder what SS rank these apologists would've had in the 1930's and 40's.

wow.. how original.. more "nazi" allusions from the left.

/zzzzzz

Right wing a-holes in apologist mode over vile, disgusting acts...

Making comparisons to what happened at abu garabe or gitmo to what happened in nazi death camps or russian gulags shows your complete lack of any knowledge of history.

the comparison is how out of line with the norms the actions were
or thats how I see it

Ah yes the slaughter of millions compared to some very minor abuse. And those that did the abusing are now being punished.

You too failed to learn history.

this is very much like someone pointed to rip in another thread (cant find it sorry) about how we precieve the number of people who die from traffic accidents today and how people percieve the number of people who die from terrorist attacks

its about what people accept, people dont accept a western civilized country to keep people locked up indefinetly and subjecting them to torture, thats something the western world sees and accepts third world countries to do, but not western countries. People can identify themselves with common countries but this has created a rift between the US and the rest of the western world, which is clearly shown in the poll posted here today.

Most of what has been claimed is not torture. Those that have been doing the abusing, are being punished. It is simply not comparable.

From what I've seen, a number of people support those who did the abusing, and are upset that they are being punished for it. They would rather it continue. THAT is what people dislike, as far as I can tell.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I swear I wonder what SS rank these apologists would've had in the 1930's and 40's.

wow.. how original.. more "nazi" allusions from the left.

/zzzzzz

Right wing a-holes in apologist mode over vile, disgusting acts...

Making comparisons to what happened at abu garabe or gitmo to what happened in nazi death camps or russian gulags shows your complete lack of any knowledge of history.

the comparison is how out of line with the norms the actions were
or thats how I see it

Ah yes the slaughter of millions compared to some very minor abuse. And those that did the abusing are now being punished.

You too failed to learn history.

this is very much like someone pointed to rip in another thread (cant find it sorry) about how we precieve the number of people who die from traffic accidents today and how people percieve the number of people who die from terrorist attacks

its about what people accept, people dont accept a western civilized country to keep people locked up indefinetly and subjecting them to torture, thats something the western world sees and accepts third world countries to do, but not western countries. People can identify themselves with common countries but this has created a rift between the US and the rest of the western world, which is clearly shown in the poll posted here today.

Most of what has been claimed is not torture. Those that have been doing the abusing, are being punished. It is simply not comparable.

hanging people up by the wrists for days?
kicking the leg at the same place right above the knee over and over again untill the prisoner cant bend the knee?

you really need to go through conjurs torture thread

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: charrison

Most of what has been claimed is not torture. Those that have been doing the abusing, are being punished. It is simply not comparable.

What do you call it when 108 people have died is US custody?? What do you call what Durbin described as a man shackled hand and foot to the floor for 18 hours a day?? Is that not torture??

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Anyone who says, "who cares about these isolated incidents of torture, look what they do to us!" is no better than those we're trying to defeat in this 'war' on 'terror'.

..and if you believe that then you're as delusional as the terrorists.

/used to say the same sort of idealistic mumbo-jumbo when I was in school

Then what makes you any better than they are? And whose opinion is more juvenile: mine (maintaining the justification for attacking these people - we really are better than they are) or yours (he played dirty first, now I'll play dirty back)?

He isn't any better. Fortunately he is powerless to do harm. A powerless whack job is a frustrated one. I kind of like it

"powerless"? I'm a registered US voter.. someday when you grow up and turn 18 you'll have as much "power" as me! woo-pee!

So Ozoned, is this n00b one of yours?
Little does he know

None of my little ones are on line at the current time.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Well, if our rules and actions are unacceptable, perhaps we should use the rules and actions that our adversaries prescribe to... Its all black and white, correct?

No...that's the point. There are more than two sides to the coin here.

Well, responding to both of your posts;

The argument wouldn't exist if torture wasn't a subjective term, would it? It all boils down to what keeps you from sleeping. I am a salty old fart, just so you know...

Well yes, I suppose that's true. But you're arguing for moral relativity, something I'm not too comfortable with.

In any case, why ARE we doing it? Maybe it doesn't bother you, but given your language, it seems to make you feel better, but does little else. What is the reason we're actually doing that stuff, I wonder? That was sort of my point, we should need a better reason than revenge. Especially when that revenge might hurt our overall mission.

WE?

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Anyone who says, "who cares about these isolated incidents of torture, look what they do to us!" is no better than those we're trying to defeat in this 'war' on 'terror'.

..and if you believe that then you're as delusional as the terrorists.

/used to say the same sort of idealistic mumbo-jumbo when I was in school

Then what makes you any better than they are? And whose opinion is more juvenile: mine (maintaining the justification for attacking these people - we really are better than they are) or yours (he played dirty first, now I'll play dirty back)?

He isn't any better. Fortunately he is powerless to do harm. A powerless whack job is a frustrated one. I kind of like it

"powerless"? I'm a registered US voter.. someday when you grow up and turn 18 you'll have as much "power" as me! woo-pee!

So Ozoned, is this n00b one of yours?
Little does he know

None of my little ones are on line at the current time.

 

[Moonbeam]

What do you mean by "argue his position"? I've given reasons for my position to other posters (read the thread and catch-up); it's you that's playing the sanctimony-card/endorsing the tail-between-your-legs approach. And don't confuse my pragmatism/realism w/ an emotional call for pay-back like Rainsford. I've lived too long on this earth to believe that if I'd just treat Jews the way I wanted to be treated they'll reciprocate. It doesn't work that way, junior.. grow up.

 

[NeenerNeener]

Sorry, confused Moonbeam. You took ValuedCustomer's statement and replaced the word people with "Jews". I had to read all the way back to the last page expending about three calories of energy. I think I see what you are trying to do. Next time use quotes and bold the word you change please.

 

[ValuedCustomer]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do you mean by "argue his position"? I've given reasons for my position to other posters (read the thread and catch-up); it's you that's playing the sanctimony-card/endorsing the tail-between-your-legs approach. And don't confuse my pragmatism/realism w/ an emotional call for pay-back like Rainsford. I've lived too long on this earth to believe that if I'd just treat Jews the way I wanted to be treated they'll reciprocate. It doesn't work that way, junior.. grow up.

"Jews"?? you're comparing the sub-human terrorists who chop the heads off of human beings and indiscriminately extinguish women & children in their warped fanatical religious fervor to "Jews"???? - either you've got issues you need to address ASAP! or that's the most "disgusting" straw-man logical fallacy I've ever run across.

/hoping it's the latter

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do you mean by "argue his position"? I've given reasons for my position to other posters (read the thread and catch-up); it's you that's playing the sanctimony-card/endorsing the tail-between-your-legs approach. And don't confuse my pragmatism/realism w/ an emotional call for pay-back like Rainsford. I've lived too long on this earth to believe that if I'd just treat Jews the way I wanted to be treated they'll reciprocate. It doesn't work that way, junior.. grow up.

"Jews"?? you're comparing the sub-human terrorists who chop the heads off of human beings and indiscriminately extinguish women & children in their warped fanatical religious fervor to "Jews"???? - either you've got issues you need to address ASAP! or that's the most "disgusting" straw-man logical fallacy I've ever run across.

/hoping it's the latter

You must be full of horse dung. Jews are so bad that six million were killed. You have a completely warped sense of morality to think that what you call evil even comes close to what is really evil. Terrorists are heroes by comparison. Put down the crack pipe and drop the illusion you're some kind of tough guy that knows something about reality.

 

[Moonbeam]

Although if we make a good beginning on terrorists we can easily work up to Jews. We'll have all the right mental habits in place.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do you mean by "argue his position"? I've given reasons for my position to other posters (read the thread and catch-up); it's you that's playing the sanctimony-card/endorsing the tail-between-your-legs approach. And don't confuse my pragmatism/realism w/ an emotional call for pay-back like Rainsford. I've lived too long on this earth to believe that if I'd just treat Jews the way I wanted to be treated they'll reciprocate. It doesn't work that way, junior.. grow up.

"Jews"?? you're comparing the sub-human terrorists who chop the heads off of human beings and indiscriminately extinguish women & children in their warped fanatical religious fervor to "Jews"???? - either you've got issues you need to address ASAP! or that's the most "disgusting" straw-man logical fallacy I've ever run across.

/hoping it's the latter

You must be full of horse dung. Jews are so bad that six million were killed. You have a completely warped sense of morality to think that what you call evil even comes close to what is really evil. Terrorists are heroes by comparison. Put down the crack pipe and drop the illusion you're some kind of tough guy that knows something about reality.

Its ok if you say horsesh!t.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Anyone who says, "who cares about these isolated incidents of torture, look what they do to us!" is no better than those we're trying to defeat in this 'war' on 'terror'.

..and if you believe that then you're as delusional as the terrorists.

/used to say the same sort of idealistic mumbo-jumbo when I was in school

Then what makes you any better than they are? And whose opinion is more juvenile: mine (maintaining the justification for attacking these people - we really are better than they are) or yours (he played dirty first, now I'll play dirty back)?

He isn't any better. Fortunately he is powerless to do harm. A powerless whack job is a frustrated one. I kind of like it

"powerless"? I'm a registered US voter.. someday when you grow up and turn 18 you'll have as much "power" as me! woo-pee!

'I do have power, I can vote, you're all kids, even though I'm the one who can't argue his position, and resorts to name calling when challenged.'

Brilliant! :disgust:

What do you mean by "argue his position"? I've given reasons for my position to other posters (read the thread and catch-up); it's you that's playing the sanctimony-card/endorsing the tail-between-your-legs approach. And don't confuse my pragmatism/realism w/ an emotional call for pay-back like Rainsford. I've lived too long on this earth to believe that if I'd just treat people the way I wanted to be treated they'll reciprocate. It doesn't work that way, junior.. grow up.

Your 'reasons' amount to nothing more than a hindbrain reaction, "they hurt me, I'm gonna hurt 'em back." They involve no thinking whatsoever. You can call it the product of your so-called 'experience', but you're neither thinking nor being pragmatic.

Did you ever stop to think that behavior of this sort by our country, whether it even approaches what the terrorists do or not, might make us that much more of a target? Do you think this might unhinge moderates in a region we're so desperately trying to win friends in? Do you think this type of behavior endears the natives to us, makes them want to turn in the insurgents/terrorists?

Certainly you remember what happened when Newsweek reported the Koran had been flushed down the toilet. I'm sure you can identify with those who were so incensed by that report they went out a'killin', since you're one & the same. I'm sure they tried to pass off their base emotions as 'reasonable' too. Are you even thinking of the Americans in hostile environments right now? Do you want them put at even greater risk?

What about Europe, or Asia - do you enjoy looking like bald-faced hypocrites to potential allies who might be willing to pony up some money (or even troops)? Here we are trying to spread freedom & democracy, deposing a dictator who was a law unto himself - remember how we talked about how he needed to go because he was detaining people, torturing them, convicting them without a trial? How many foreign nations sent troops to Iraq in the beginning, and how many of them have since pulled out in wake of Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, etc. There's some 'realism' for you.

I've read your posts and those of others who share your ideas. Apparently, though, you missed the previous posts stating that it's a simple fact that torture doesn't work. Go ask the Israelis, they basically stopped trying it around the Second Intifada - they found out that torture does nothing more than make people that much more willing to blow themselves up to get at you.

Further indicating your level of thinking, you automatically assume that anyone who thinks the torture of POWs is wrong supports 'running away, tail between legs'. Anyone who dares disagree with your opinions must be all for freeing the detainees in Cuba, handing them a medal & and an AK, and telling them to continue killing Americans. Where did I indicate how we ought be treating the Gitmo prisoners? That's right, I didn't. They should be kept locked up, interrogated, and given trials like any other prisoners of war as per the Geneva Convention. Or would you rather just ignore that, too?

Your argument is as dust. Show me one example of how torture got us information that accepted forms of interrogation couldn't. Show me one example of how torturing prisoners made a young kid scared of us, and willing to cooperate with us, instead of turning him into an insurgent. Show me one example of how our behaviour has strengthened rather than weakened the support of our allies. Those would be slightly more effective than dismissing the opinions of those with whom you disagree as juvenile. You, sir, are an irresponsible, ignorant, myopic mental midget. I eagerly await your ingenious rejoinder, which will be along the lines of, 'you impertinent fool child!'