Breonna Taylor - Charges Against Officers

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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
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This was a reasoned breakdown from a friend of my who is an attorney. Not really a judgement either way, just that he's never seen anything like this.

"
After hearing all the evidence that the Prosecutor cares to present (there is no requirement that potentially defense friendly evidence be presented, and in my experience, it rarely is presented), they determine whether charges should issue. Because Grand Juries sometimes return a result that doesn't result in a person receiving criminal charges -- such as the case of two of the three officers in the Taylor case -- the proceedings are sealed, and the jurors sworn to secrecy. Imagine, if you will, where John Doe's reputation gets torpedoed because a lot of ugly information was presented to the grand jury, but it wasn't sufficient to bring charges. In that case, John Doe certainly wants his information to remain confidential. But the evidence presented is controlled entirely by the prosecutor. It's also not subject, usually, to rules of admissibility that apply at trial.

The prosecutor has wide latitude to present whatever they feel is appropriate. In most cases, this is believed to be a fairly independent process, because the prosecutor has to meet a certain burden of proof, although that burden is very, very low. If charges are issued, then the subject of the investigation becomes a defendant, is served charges and arrested, has bail set, and then proceeds to a trial or a plea like you've seen on a thousand or more police or attorney TV shows, more or less. Especially in cases where officers are accused of wrongdoing, however, there comes a credibility problem. One would like to assume that the prosecutor would zealously and forthrightly present the evidence against the officers, and that the persons in charge of the investigation (like internal affairs) did their jobs even more zealously than they would if it was Joe Drug Dealer they were investigating.

If one could be assured that was the case, then the grand jury's determination not to bring charges against the other two officers in this case would have to suffice. HOWEVER, given the current climate around police driven internal investigations, and this case in particular, one might be skeptical. When the charges -- or lack thereof were announced -- the Attorney General made it very clear that not only did his independent investigation clear the officers of wrongdoing, but that the Grand Jury concurred in this result. That's an interesting statement itself, because most often what happens in these cases is the grand jury is presented with the results of the investigation, they don't conduct an investigation themselves, so they are somewhat reliant upon what is fed to them. It also bears noting that, under PA law, grand jurors often are permitted to ask questions of witnesses directly, which they are not permitted to do at trial. I have no idea whether the same is permitted in Kentucky, but it might prove interesting to learn that.

Paragraphs 5, 6 and 7, seem to provide a treasure trove of information. They point to quotations by the AG, with very little in the way of context. However, one might reasonably infer that the "Grand Juror" bringing the pleading to the court feels those quotes are inaccurate.

For paragraph 5, the juror points out the AG declined to answer whether he made a recommendation to the Grand Jury. Again, in my experience in PA, the provision of a recommendation from the prosecutor is standard operating procedure. The prosecutor says that they recommend or request the Grand Jury issue charges, and the Grand Jury typically does as the prosecutor requests -- usually because they have a mountain of evidence in support of the charges by that point. My read is the AG declined to answer because he wanted the appearance that the Grand Jury arrived at the same conclusion as his investigation independently of that investigation. The fact that the Grand Juror is now using that assertion may indicate that they feel the grand jury was given a recommendation, and that they were less independent than the AG would have you believe.
The AG similarly deflected when asked if the Grand Jury heard from the other 12 alleged witnesses to the incident at Ms. Taylor's apartment. According to statements from the attorney for her family, these 12 alleged witnesses would indicate that they never heard the officers announce their identities before shots were fired. The AG's quote is, again, telling, It's mumbo jumbo -- by failing to answer the question directly and instead reframing it the way he does, it certainly seems like he's corroborating the statement by the family attorney that says these 12 alleged witnesses never testified before the Grand Jury. For the Juror to be bringing this up suggests that had the Grand Jury heard from other witnesses, the resulting charges might have been very different indeed. One wonders, for instance, that if the Grand Jury believed the officers didn't announce their identities before shots were fired, whether the outcome of the charges against the officers might have been significantly different.

Paragraph 7 asks about "lesser included offenses" that the grand jurors might have considered. The AG suggested that they had the full range of charges available to them. For the juror to be suggesting that this statement was somehow problematic, it could be a number of things. It may be that the charges were not explained clearly enough, that questions from the jurors to clarify them were unanswered, or that they possible charges and the necessary elements were never presented to the jury at all.
The only way any of this is reviewed is if the transcripts of the record of the proceedings are released. Then independent persons will have the ability to review the evidence; to see if the charges were explained clearly; to see if the 12 alleged witnesses' stories were presented accurately, and to see for themselves whether the AG made a specific charging recommendation.

All of THAT being said, this seems to be uncharted territory. The juror is requesting a declaratory judgment action. I don't know specifics of KY law, but under PA, that's a procedure to be used when a person's rights to relief are unclear. In this case, Paragraphs 11, 12 and 13 set out the reason why the juror believes the Judge should unseal the record in this matter. It boils down to a fear that the Jurors are being used to shield law enforcement, and the AG in particular, from responsibility for their decisions.

The juror expresses that they and their brethren will be subject to "persecution, condemnation, retribution and torment" if the record is unsealed. That's an interesting notion, except that Grand Juror's identities are also secret, and protected from disclosure, if I recall correctly, so fears of retribution might be tenuous at best. Paragraph 20 gets REALLY interesting. The juror wants to talk about "charges that were NOT presented to the Grand Jury. . . explanations of the law that were NOT given to the grand jurors. . . defenses or justifications that were NOT detailed during the proceedings. . .witnesses that did NOT testify . . . etc."

This underscores that the Grand Juror has a story to tell. And that raises another specter -- that the juror wants the confidentiality breached because this is of national interest and they want to make a pretty penny off of a book deal or some such. If it's more altruistic than that -- that the Grand Juror believes there was dirty pool and is trying to shed some light on it, then things could get very interesting. The supervising Judge will have some significant insight into that -- they presided over the grand jury, and know whether the AG did a decent job, or whether it was an effort to whitewash the liability of the officers from the beginning.

But there's a first hurdle -- the juror has to convince the judge that they have standing to bring the matter -- that they have a right to be heard. It's a novel approach, as far as I know.
The AG will almost certainly argue that they don't; and if the Grand Juror wins that point, then things are going to get SUPER interesting in Kentucky."
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,461
996
126
The grand just is upset the AG threw them under the bus. It’s overly clear at this point that the AG limited the evidence and charges offered to the grand jury. The AG didn’t want the officers charged with anything and present the case that way. That’s why the Grand Jury wants information released because they are be thrown under the bus and being blamed for the officers not being charged when in reality that was the AGs doing.
 
Reactions: HomerJS
Jan 25, 2011
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What is it that the AG possibly said that didn't reflect the GJ?

Are they trying to indicate that the GJ found the cops more liable than the AJ reflected (even though the GJ didn't charge them) ?
What they are saying is they weren't even given the option of indicting the cops who shot her.

 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Cameron gets motion approved to delay release, looks like sometime next week.

Probably won't matter much since the AG has already admitted that he didn't give the option of indicting the two officers to the GJ. Notably he didn't admit this until he was basically forced to release the transcript.

AG's judgment to not indict the two officers may well have been correct, but he should never had hidden behind the GJ's decision because it was his alone.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
AG's judgment to not indict the two officers may well have been correct, but he should never had hidden behind the GJ's decision because it was his alone.

Is there any wonder why a significant number of people no longer trust our judicial system? It is not trustworthy. Look at all the lies and deceit in this case. Not by the accused, but by the people that are supposed to be prosecuting them, by the institution that is supposed to be representing the people.

You can't trust a system that lies to you by default, and then when caught acts like it was no big deal, that the real problem is that the truth came out, not that they lied about it.

Is the AG's judgement not to indict correct? How the hell should I know? I've been lied to by the AG, so why would I trust their judgement?
Lie to me about one thing and I have to assume you are willing to lie to me about others.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,705
28,874
136
Is there any wonder why a significant number of people no longer trust our judicial system? It is not trustworthy. Look at all the lies and deceit in this case. Not by the accused, but by the people that are supposed to be prosecuting them, by the institution that is supposed to be representing the people.

You can't trust a system that lies to you by default, and then when caught acts like it was no big deal, that the real problem is that the truth came out, not that they lied about it.

Is the AG's judgement not to indict correct? How the hell should I know? I've been lied to by the AG, so why would I trust their judgement?
Lie to me about one thing and I have to assume you are willing to lie to me about others.
There is either culpability from cops at the scene or the ones who provided the information used for the warrant. The PD can't be trusted because of the lying on the incident report (claimed she was not injured). AG can't be trusted because he shows no interest on holing any officer accountable. Feds need to investigate this incident and the entire department. That will not happen with Barr but will only happen if Biden wins in Nov.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
2,615
136
There is either culpability from cops at the scene or the ones who provided the information used for the warrant. The PD can't be trusted because of the lying on the incident report (claimed she was not injured). AG can't be trusted because he shows no interest on holing any officer accountable. Feds need to investigate this incident and the entire department. That will not happen with Barr but will only happen if Biden wins in Nov.
Technically if you're dead you're not injured... Though I see your point.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
2,615
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As we all expected. The Jury was never even given the chance to consider homicide, manslaughter, etc. The only charge they were given was wanton endangerment. Seems like the AG was definitely lying.

 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,705
28,874
136
As we all expected. The Jury was never even given the chance to consider homicide, manslaughter, etc. The only charge they were given was wanton endangerment. Seems like the AG was definitely lying.

As I suspected corruption runs all through that PD and up to the Republican AG
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Jesus what a mockery of justice ☹️

Not really a mockery at all, but it is sleezy for sure.

The AG has no legal obligation to tell the grand jury what they can and cannot do. He has no legal obligation to present anything at all. It just so happens that most people on a grand jury have no idea of their rights and legal abilities as part of the grand jury. Most people have no idea that being part of a grand jury means that they have legal investigatory powers. They can submit subpoenas, request investigations, ask for depositions, and many other things. The fact is because most people are completely uneducated about the whole legal process which ends up being exploited by those that do. At the same time, I understand it isn't anyone's job to educate people selected for a jury either. It's sad that people don't get to know the basics of our legal and political system these days.

The main issue with this case has always been the ridiculous actions of the cops outside the apartment and in the parking lot going nuts once they heard gunfire. That is basically the real scandal here. Only one cop getting charged with reckless endangerment is sketchy. The AG is hiding the actions of the other cops that were recklessly shooting I believe and using one cop to be the fall guy here with a light charge. I have no problem with the cops at the doorway shooting back and if all their bullets were ones that hit Breona Taylor then so be it. I have a problem with cops not being shot at shooting randomly and hitting people. We don't have the evidence yet because full ballistics weren't done to determine where all the bullets that hit Breona came from. Nor for sure if the bullet that hit the initial cops was from Walker. That is the real issue with the case at this point. Which would go a long way to explain the 12 million bribe the city gave. No wrongful death case ever has paid more than 2 mill in this country. To all of a sudden pay 12 mill is a bribe to cover something up. To recap, the warrant was legit, there was no racism involved in this case, and the cops at the door did what they were told to do and did their job properly. The cops not at the door more than likely screwed up massively. If some of the bullets that hit Breona were from the cops not at the door, then those cops should be in far greater legal trouble than reckless endangerment.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,705
28,874
136
Not really a mockery at all, but it is sleezy for sure.

The AG has no legal obligation to tell the grand jury what they can and cannot do.

Really? No instructions at all? What the fuck is the AG there for? This guy clearly didn't do his job which is a mockery of justice. Why? Because it appears he thinks his only job was to see justice was NOT done.
 
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chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Not really a mockery at all, but it is sleezy for sure.

The AG has no legal obligation to tell the grand jury what they can and cannot do. He has no legal obligation to present anything at all. It just so happens that most people on a grand jury have no idea of their rights and legal abilities as part of the grand jury. Most people have no idea that being part of a grand jury means that they have legal investigatory powers. They can submit subpoenas, request investigations, ask for depositions, and many other things. The fact is because most people are completely uneducated about the whole legal process which ends up being exploited by those that do. At the same time, I understand it isn't anyone's job to educate people selected for a jury either. It's sad that people don't get to know the basics of our legal and political system these days.

The main issue with this case has always been the ridiculous actions of the cops outside the apartment and in the parking lot going nuts once they heard gunfire. That is basically the real scandal here. Only one cop getting charged with reckless endangerment is sketchy. The AG is hiding the actions of the other cops that were recklessly shooting I believe and using one cop to be the fall guy here with a light charge. I have no problem with the cops at the doorway shooting back and if all their bullets were ones that hit Breona Taylor then so be it. I have a problem with cops not being shot at shooting randomly and hitting people. We don't have the evidence yet because full ballistics weren't done to determine where all the bullets that hit Breona came from. Nor for sure if the bullet that hit the initial cops was from Walker. That is the real issue with the case at this point. Which would go a long way to explain the 12 million bribe the city gave. No wrongful death case ever has paid more than 2 mill in this country. To all of a sudden pay 12 mill is a bribe to cover something up. To recap, the warrant was legit, there was no racism involved in this case, and the cops at the door did what they were told to do and did their job properly. The cops not at the door more than likely screwed up massively. If some of the bullets that hit Breona were from the cops not at the door, then those cops should be in far greater legal trouble than reckless endangerment.
Really? No instructions at all? What the fuck is the AG there for? This guy clearly didn't do his job which is a mockery of justice. Why? Because it appears he thinks his only job was to see justice was NOT done.
the jurors specifically asked about other charges but were told by the DA there would be no other charges because they did not think they could get a conviction. It was a sham effort to sweep this under the rug.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
the jurors specifically asked about other charges but were told by the DA there would be no other charges because they did not think they could get a conviction. It was a sham effort to sweep this under the rug.

The DA is the one that brings initial charges. The grand jury can direct more charges. They tell him to charge and he has to. But if they ask what he is doing, he can tell them just that. I hope you understand the legal nuance here. It is a shitty and sleazy thing to do. I am not denying that. The vast majority of the DAs that have access to a grand jury exploit the whole process because they know regular people don't have a clue about what the can legally do as a grand juror. The DA has no obligation to legally tell them what they are allowed to do.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Really? No instructions at all? What the fuck is the AG there for? This guy clearly didn't do his job which is a mockery of justice. Why? Because it appears he thinks his only job was to see justice was NOT done.

There are huge differences between a grand jury and a petite jury. They have different legal authorities and abilities. There is zero legal obligation for the DA to tell anyone on a grand jury what they are legally allowed to do as part of the grand jury. It isn't his job to do that. It isn't a mockery if he doesn't do that. While it would have been nice if he let them know what all they could do, it is literally up to the people on the jury to do the job they were assigned and not him. The AG is just suppose to bring evidence that he has initially collected to show what he believe is enough to bring reasonable cause to continue with legal actions in a trial. He is there also to provide support for further investigations that any grand juror asks for. He is legally there be directed to what he has to charge in a case. People don't realize the power of the grand jury has in states that have them. They direct the investigation at that point and tell the DA what to charge and what not to charge in cases. The DA has to do what they will him to do. That being said, the DA by law doesn't have to tell them that they have the real power over him either. Most don't and exploit the fact that most people picked for a jury have no idea about the legal process at all. I agree it is a dumb thing.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
Not really a mockery at all, but it is sleezy for sure.

The AG has no legal obligation to tell the grand jury what they can and cannot do.

I disagree. The AG has the legal obligation to represent the people in matters of justice. So, did he do that here? I would say no he did not, he actually did the opposite. He intentionally mislead the people to cover up a potential miscarriage of justice. He failed to uphold the oath he swore to the people of his state, and mattering on the laws of the state he might have committed fraud in doing so.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I disagree. The AG has the legal obligation to represent the people in matters of justice. So, did he do that here? I would say no he did not, he actually did the opposite. He intentionally mislead the people to cover up a potential miscarriage of justice. He failed to uphold the oath he swore to the people of his state, and mattering on the laws of the state he might have committed fraud in doing so.

Opinion doesn't change legal obligations at the time. DA's are beholden to state/county laws and not the people directly. They are not voted into their position. If people want DAs to do something different they can pressure their state legislators to make changes to the responsibilities and role of their DA(s) as they want. I am going to tell you though that there isn't a legal obligation at all for any DA though in this country to bring or not bring any charges to a grand jury in their initial investigation of a case. Doing so would cause all sorts of issues which is why prosecutors have all sorts of immunities for doing their job as they see fit within the constraints of their state's and federal laws.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
We are talking about the AG who is most certainly elected.

You are flipping terms.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
DA's are beholden to state/county laws and not the people directly. They are not voted into their position.
Wrong, in Kentucky, and many other states, the AG is indeed voted in and directly represents and is beholden to the people.

If people want DAs to do something different they can pressure their state legislators to make changes to the responsibilities and role of their DA(s) as they want. I am going to tell you though that there isn't a legal obligation at all for any DA though in this country to bring or not bring any charges to a grand jury in their initial investigation of a case. Doing so would cause all sorts of issues which is why prosecutors have all sorts of immunities for doing their job as they see fit within the constraints of their state's and federal laws.

The Kentucky Supreme Court has firmly established that the Attorney General’s primary obligation is to the people and their Commonwealth – not any branch of government. In 2016, the Supreme Court recognized the Attorney General’s common-law obligation to protect public rights and interests by ensuring that our government acts legally and constitutionally, in Beshear v. Bevin, 498 S.W.3d 355. The Court wrote that “It is certainly in ‘the interest of all the people’ that there be no unconstitutional or illegal governmental conduct.”
 
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