Brexit Deal Voted down in "Historic Defeat" according to BBC News site (Brexit still happening but PM May is in trouble)

[Jhhnn]

Its quite obvious why some factors want a hard Brexit.. The economic shift downwards is going to create an super pissed off middle -> soon to be lower/lower middle class - PERFECT conditions to further seed and culture the populist authoritarian agenda.


edit : Arh ... 22nd of May it is then.

Putin loves it, I'm sure.

 

[Jhhnn]

The Spanish are really not cool about it. At all.

Which I can understand.

Meh. Gibraltar has been British for over 300 years. The Spaniards need to get over themselves. It's 30K people, pretty much as British as British gets, like the Falklands.

I was thinking in other terms, of other concessions the EU made to include the UK, like a separate currency. There's other concessions, as well, which our UK members can explain a lot better than I can.

 

[K1052]

Meh. Gibraltar has been British for over 300 years. The Spaniards need to get over themselves. It's 30K people, pretty much as British as British gets, like the Falklands.

I was thinking in other terms, of other concessions the EU made to include the UK, like a separate currency. There's other concessions, as well, which our UK members can explain a lot better than I can.

Since Spain’s affirmative vote would be required for any future accession they may have a different view of what they have to get over.

 

[pmv]

The Spanish are really not cool about it. At all.

Which I can understand.

Bit hypocritical of them, though, given their insistence on hanging on to bits of Morocco just the other side of the Med.


https://www.thoughtco.com/spanish-enclaves-of-north-africa-1435526

Not that I care much either way about Gibraltar really. But the Gibaltarians want to be 'British', and I'm not sure what other basis there is for deciding those sorts of issues. I don't see it as colonialism, its just all a bit tiresome. It was a war between equals and one side lost.

(Certainly though, a benefit of the EU is that it smoothed over those sorts of historical complications...but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Spanish who were a colonial power themselves)

I feel more strongly about Northern Ireland - it is going to be become part of Ireland again one day, I'm sure. And the history there is different, it should not have ended up as British in the first place.

 

[cytg111]

Bit hypocritical of them, though, given their insistence on hanging on to bits of Morocco just the other side of the Med.


https://www.thoughtco.com/spanish-enclaves-of-north-africa-1435526

Not that I care much either way about Gibraltar really. But the Gibaltarians want to be 'British', and I'm not sure what other basis there is for deciding those sorts of issues. I don't see it as colonialism, its just all a bit tiresome. It was a war between equals and one side lost.

(Certainly though, a benefit of the EU is that it smoothed over those sorts of historical complications...but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Spanish who were a colonial power themselves)

I feel more strongly about Northern Ireland - it is going to be become part of Ireland again one day, I'm sure. And the history there is different, it should not have ended up as British in the first place.

"(Certainly though, a benefit of the EU is that it smoothed over those sorts of historical complications...but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Spanish who were a colonial power themselves) "

- And this is why we have peace and why we must have more EU .. Well really just the U part.

 

[K1052]

Bit hypocritical of them, though, given their insistence on hanging on to bits of Morocco just the other side of the Med.


https://www.thoughtco.com/spanish-enclaves-of-north-africa-1435526

Not that I care much either way about Gibraltar really. But the Gibaltarians want to be 'British', and I'm not sure what other basis there is for deciding those sorts of issues. I don't see it as colonialism, its just all a bit tiresome. It was a war between equals and one side lost.

(Certainly though, a benefit of the EU is that it smoothed over those sorts of historical complications...but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Spanish who were a colonial power themselves)

I feel more strongly about Northern Ireland - it is going to be become part of Ireland again one day, I'm sure. And the history there is different, it should not have ended up as British in the first place.

That was my point. A non-trivial purpose of the EU was to "smooth over" issues like that which often had led to conflict.

 

[pmv]

"(Certainly though, a benefit of the EU is that it smoothed over those sorts of historical complications...but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Spanish who were a colonial power themselves) "

- And this is why we have peace and why we must have more EU .. Well really just the U part.

Well, yeah. For the most part I think that's something that is much more of a factor in attitudes to the EU on the Continent than in the UK. Gibraltar (which personally I see as pretty minor) and NI are the two issues where it does arise.

And the lack of awareness of what Brexit meant for NI, among the fanatical Brexiters, is and was quite shocking. I've heard some of them who genuinely seem to think the problem will be solved because the Republic will decide to join the UK again. Some of them do seem to be that deluded. The others just don't care, apparently.

 

[ElFenix]

It's not the most useful word in the English language for nothing:

 

[mikeymikec]

Another example of politicians only thinking five minutes ahead:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47683059

"Theresa May could gain support for her Brexit deal if she promises to stand down as PM, senior Conservatives have told the BBC.
MPs in the party have said they might reluctantly back the agreement if they know she will not be in charge of the next stage of negotiations with the EU."

These people really need help.

 

[dawp]

this is such a cluster fuck.

 

[K1052]

Another example of politicians only thinking five minutes ahead:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47683059

"Theresa May could gain support for her Brexit deal if she promises to stand down as PM, senior Conservatives have told the BBC.
MPs in the party have said they might reluctantly back the agreement if they know she will not be in charge of the next stage of negotiations with the EU."

These people really need help.

amazing

 

[pmv]

It's not the most useful word in the English language for nothing:

It is such a flexible word. Exclamation, verb, noun, adjective, adverb, it can do it all

e.g.

"Fuck! Fucking fucker's fucking fucked!"

Which probably describes this country.

 

[Commodus]

It is such a flexible word. Exclamation, verb, noun, adjective, adverb, it can do it all

e.g.

"Fuck! Fucking fucker's fucking fucked!"

Which probably describes this country.

The worst is that it's an entirely self-inflicted wound. If Cameron hadn't enabled a referendum, the UK would have likely carried on the same, just with discussions inside the EU about immigration.

 

[pmv]

The worst is that it's an entirely self-inflicted wound. If Cameron hadn't enabled a referendum, the UK would have likely carried on the same, just with discussions inside the EU about immigration.

I feel like that's both true and not true.

Cameron, being an almighty idiot, of a kind only the most elite educational establishments can produce, not only gave us an unnecessary referendum, but chose the worst possible moment to have it. Like, 5 years earlier or 5 years later it probably would have gone the other way and we'd all have carried on.

It's a bit like the argument about guns and suicide. If people have a referendum lying around their house when they are going through a crisis, they might make a impulsive decision with irreversible effects. I'm sure statistics show that's far more likely than a referendum being used to deter an intruder.

But just as someone who kills themselves might have a very long-standing mental health problem, the Brexit vote did stem from very long-standing and deeply-rooted problems. Brexit has always been latent in the UK. And its relationship with the Continent has always been difficult, afflicted with contradictory needs and desires.

And the Tory party especially has always been divided over the issue, it's long been their biggest single internal problem, that they periodically wreck themselves over.

Also, to declare it to be 'self-inflicted' kind-of assumes there is a single British 'self' to make a conscious decision. I don't think that's true. It's surely more a a result of long-existing contrary forces in British society interacting. This disaster was always latently present in the UK, going back to the end of Empire.

Actually I'm not even sure it's true with an individual person engaging in self-harm, yet alone an entire nation. People are composed of warring forces as well.

 

[K1052]

lol


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/theresa-may-to-resign-as-uk-prime-minister.html

Theresa May says she will quit as UK prime minister should Brexit deal go through

 

[mikeymikec]

lol


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/theresa-may-to-resign-as-uk-prime-minister.html

Theresa May says she will quit as UK prime minister should Brexit deal go through

In the finest tradition of the tory party: "I create mess, someone else fixes it"

 

[fskimospy]

In the finest tradition of the tory party: "I create mess, someone else fixes it"

So if I'm understanding the deal she's offering it's 'approve this bad deal I made so that I won't be in charge to negotiate any other bad deals going forward'?

Seems super compelling.

 

[zinfamous]

So if I'm understanding the deal she's offering it's 'approve this bad deal I made so that I won't be in charge to negotiate any other bad deals going forward'?

Seems super compelling.

can we get the same offer from our POTUS?

 

[hal2kilo]

Bit hypocritical of them, though, given their insistence on hanging on to bits of Morocco just the other side of the Med.


https://www.thoughtco.com/spanish-enclaves-of-north-africa-1435526

Not that I care much either way about Gibraltar really. But the Gibaltarians want to be 'British', and I'm not sure what other basis there is for deciding those sorts of issues. I don't see it as colonialism, its just all a bit tiresome. It was a war between equals and one side lost.

(Certainly though, a benefit of the EU is that it smoothed over those sorts of historical complications...but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Spanish who were a colonial power themselves)

I feel more strongly about Northern Ireland - it is going to be become part of Ireland again one day, I'm sure. And the history there is different, it should not have ended up as British in the first place.

Seems their plan of genocide against the Iris did not go well.

 

[mikeymikec]

So if I'm understanding the deal she's offering it's 'approve this bad deal I made so that I won't be in charge to negotiate any other bad deals going forward'?

Seems super compelling.

The flipside is just as stupid: So, I want you to vote for my deal, because it's a good deal that I was instrumental in making, and the pay-off is that I won't be there to continue my good work on this deal.

 

[Sunburn74]

lol


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/theresa-may-to-resign-as-uk-prime-minister.html

Theresa May says she will quit as UK prime minister should Brexit deal go through

I think this is extremely sad and shows you her true motivations (trying to cement herself in history rather than trying to do the right thing)

 

[K1052]

DUP says they won’t back May’s deal.

 

[pmv]

God almighty. They just tried 8 different forms of Brexit proposal and every one of them was defeated. No Deal now looks slightly more likely again.

Perhaps we should just keep the Brexit debate going indefinitely? We could sell tickets! After all, arguing about Brexit is all the country does now, it's become an intrinsic part of the British identity. Without it we'd no longer be ourselves.

At this point our entire sense of ourselves is now bound up in 'arguing about Brexit'. It's all we do. Our primary industry is writing articles about it and coming up with different hypothetical scenarios for it. Our government does no actual governing, it merely debates Brexit, in a loop, forever. We won't know who we are any more when it's over.

At least it would keep us from joining in any more foreign mad military adventures or otherwise messing up other countries.

 

[fskimospy]

God almighty. They just tried 8 different forms of Brexit proposal and every one of them was defeated. No Deal now looks slightly more likely again.

Perhaps we should just keep the Brexit debate going indefinitely? We could sell tickets! After all, arguing about Brexit is all the country does now, it's become an intrinsic part of the British identity. Without it we'd no longer be ourselves.

At this point our entire sense of ourselves is now bound up in 'arguing about Brexit'. It's all we do. Our primary industry is writing articles about it and coming up with different hypothetical scenarios for it. Our government does no actual governing, it merely debates Brexit, in a loop, forever. We won't know who we are any more when it's over.

At least it would keep us from joining in any more foreign mad military adventures or otherwise messing up other countries.

It’s because you already know the answer and have known the answer for a long time. The answer is not to leave.

There’s no magical combination of conditions that are going to come up which change the fundamental stupidity of this choice so the answer is clear: since the first referendum your country learned a few things and realized it made a mistake. Fix that mistake.

 

[Jhhnn]

God almighty. They just tried 8 different forms of Brexit proposal and every one of them was defeated. No Deal now looks slightly more likely again.

Perhaps we should just keep the Brexit debate going indefinitely? We could sell tickets! After all, arguing about Brexit is all the country does now, it's become an intrinsic part of the British identity. Without it we'd no longer be ourselves.

At this point our entire sense of ourselves is now bound up in 'arguing about Brexit'. It's all we do. Our primary industry is writing articles about it and coming up with different hypothetical scenarios for it. Our government does no actual governing, it merely debates Brexit, in a loop, forever. We won't know who we are any more when it's over.

At least it would keep us from joining in any more foreign mad military adventures or otherwise messing up other countries.

Huh-uhh! You'll still be in NATO. And still stuck on stupid with Tory austerity.