Brexit Deal Voted down in "Historic Defeat" according to BBC News site (Brexit still happening but PM May is in trouble)

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Putin's boys are cackling with glee, savoring the idea of bringing down the West with their own tribal stupidity. With more encouragement we may just tear ourselves to shreds.
 
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Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
I am massively confused about what is/isn't happening now.

I just hope that:

- We remain
- Lots and lots of people like Jacob Rees Mogg go to prison for a long time
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,912
2,130
126
As mentioned earlier. People whining should also have some solutions in mind if they don't like it as it is.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,842
9,088
136
No-deal Brexit is off the table--Pound Sterling is moving up on the news. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that UK leadership has to do at least one of these things:

1) Delay Brexit indefinitely to allow time to work out a better deal.

2) Delay Brexit indefinitely to allow for a second referendum on Brexit.

Can they delay the "hard" Brexit deadline unilaterally, or would the EU need to agree to a delay? What if Juncker and the EU just say "no can do, begone you fools!" and forces Brexit on schedule?
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,652
10,515
136
just in case anyone doesn't understand that the UK already had the best deal in europe and then decided to fuck it up, someone put together this handy-dandy chart:

It sure seemed something like this to me. So I'm not imagining things.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,283
8,201
136
No deal is not off the table. The politicians have voted against no deal being an option. Which is a fatuous position.

At the moment it's like we have jumped out of an aeroplane, decided not to pull the rip cord on the parachute but voted not to hit the ground even if we do nothing else.


Plus some of us are insisting to everyone else that the ground really doesn't look that hard, and anyway it wouldn't be a problem if only those fools in charge of plummeting to earth were better at falling, and in any case it's the ground's fault for not being prepared to come up to meet us. (And, furthermore, it's the ground that will really suffer when we hit it).
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
No-deal Brexit is off the table--Pound Sterling is moving up on the news. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that UK leadership has to do at least one of these things:

1) Delay Brexit indefinitely to allow time to work out a better deal.

2) Delay Brexit indefinitely to allow for a second referendum on Brexit.

Can they delay the "hard" Brexit deadline unilaterally, or would the EU need to agree to a delay? What if Juncker and the EU just say "no can do, begone you fools!" and forces Brexit on schedule?

The EU wants the UK to remain. The only deadlines are of UK making.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,048
10,226
136
No deal is not off the table. The politicians have voted against no deal being an option. Which is a fatuous position.

I agree it's almost pointless, but I think the point of it is to point out to TM that she'd be going against the wishes of Parliament if she allowed no-deal to occur.

Plus some of us are insisting to everyone else that the ground really doesn't look that hard, and anyway it wouldn't be a problem if only those fools in charge of plummeting to earth were better at falling, and in any case it's the ground's fault for not being prepared to come up to meet us. (And, furthermore, it's the ground that will really suffer when we hit it).

That's what really gets my goat is how a few Hard Brexiteers are still parroting this line about Hard Brexit not being all that bad at all and we'll get by. It reminds me of Obama saying it's very difficult to talk to people when they don't even agree with the available facts.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,283
8,201
136
I agree it's almost pointless, but I think the point of it is to point out to TM that she'd be going against the wishes of Parliament if she allowed no-deal to occur.



That's what really gets my goat is how a few Hard Brexiteers are still parroting this line about Hard Brexit not being all that bad at all and we'll get by. It reminds me of Obama saying it's very difficult to talk to people when they don't even agree with the available facts.


I think they are a mixture of those who won't personally suffer much if at all - indeed who are almost certainly lined up to profit from it all - and those who, rightly-or-wrongly, feel they have nothing to lose because everything is crap already. Oh, and, I guess, the outright racist and those who can't cope with the fact it's not 1955 any more. And of course there's some overlap between those latter groups.

It's so hard to get a handle on it all, on who is in what category, how numerous each group is, and who is driven by which motivations.

I do feel quite weirdly mixed reactions when I hear pro-Brexit ranting because I half feel 'Oh, God, you are completely deranged!' and half feel I can empathise with where they are coming from.

The classic one is angry plebian northerner arguing with highly (privately) educated remainer (who may-or-may-not be a certain radio presenter). The remainer may have all the information and all the articulacy (gained from the public school debating society?) while the leaver is reduced to making a fool of himself spluttering entirely inchoerently about elite liberals who can prove anything with their facts and logic...and yet I still feel this weird twinge of sympathy with the angry ranter.

There are a lot of people with a lot of pent-up anger out there, and reason and facts explained in a privately-educated accent aren't going to shift them. I fear maybe it's just all too late. That brewing anger should have been addressed long before it got to this.

But I just don't know what the relative proportions are of the different pro-Brexit tribes. I don't know enough about my compatriots to get a handle on it.

I do know I blame Cameron above all for this. That Bullingdon generation were/are just not fit to run the proverbial whelk-stall. They represented a remarkable degeneration in the competence of Tory politicians since "Thatcher and the strivers".
 
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ecogen

Golden Member
Dec 24, 2016
1,217
1,288
136
No-deal Brexit is off the table--Pound Sterling is moving up on the news. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that UK leadership has to do at least one of these things:

1) Delay Brexit indefinitely to allow time to work out a better deal.

2) Delay Brexit indefinitely to allow for a second referendum on Brexit.

Can they delay the "hard" Brexit deadline unilaterally, or would the EU need to agree to a delay? What if Juncker and the EU just say "no can do, begone you fools!" and forces Brexit on schedule?

The EU needs to agree to a delay, and from the looks of things if they do agree it's gonna be a long one. Long one as in years. They've already stated that they won't agree for a delay just for delay's sake, it will either be because the UK have changed their red lines, or to give the UK time to hold a GE/2nd ref.

If things reach that point Brexit is pretty much dead, which would be great.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,048
10,226
136
There's no chance that it will be a long delay, IMO. The EU and businesses everywhere will be screaming for the UK to shit or get off the pot. This farce has cost the UK billions of pounds already, and the longer the uncertainty goes on for, the greater the long-term damage will be.

I'm not even sure a delay will be granted by the EU because there's no clear reasoning for it (e.g. the time needed to implement a process). I see Parliament's motive for a delay being just so they can kick the can down the road a bit longer instead of showing some grit and demanding Article 50 be revoked for lack of any better option on the table. A second referendum with only two options: "May's deal" and "Remain" seems to be the only sensible reason to grant a delay IMO.
 
Reactions: Bitek and Sunburn74

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,642
5,329
136
No deal is not off the table. The politicians have voted against no deal being an option. Which is a fatuous position.

At the moment it's like we have jumped out of an aeroplane, decided not to pull the rip cord on the parachute but voted not to hit the ground even if we do nothing else.
That's how it looked to me.
At some point doesn't the EU just say fuck it and close the borders?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,048
10,226
136
That's how it looked to me.
At some point doesn't the EU just say fuck it and close the borders?

It's a lot of money and a lot of businesses going bust (mainly thinking EU businesses here, though the damage would be an order of magnitude worse for the UK, I'm sure of that). Furthermore, the EU would look like an ass to all the people that action would negatively affect, that they didn't do what they should and all they could to find a reasonable solution, and they decided to act primarily in a punitive matter.

Plenty of victimised Brexiteers already feel this way about the EU, not that they matter particularly, but to everyone else negatively affected in the UK by this, families torn apart, jobs lost, etc... lots of people looking for someone to blame.

There would be consequences for the EU, and maybe even for the character of the EU as an organisation and how their actions here affect their decision-making in future.

The EU has been pretty decent and patient in this whole farce so far. It's important that they continue to play this right. Other EU states will inevitably think of leaving due to similar populist movements, and if the EU gains a rep for being spiteful/bully-ish: that's further fuel for the populists.

If pushed, the EU will eventually say "enough is enough", but they have to be seen to have played things reasonably and by the book IMO.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
That's how it looked to me.
At some point doesn't the EU just say fuck it and close the borders?

The EU wants the UK to remain. Therefore, they'll go along with most anything promoting that. At some point they may just say "Look, we're done talking, OK? We've established the terms of a soft Brexit. You can have that, hard Brexit or remain. We await your final decision."
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,815
136
Parlment has voted to extend Article 50. Remains to be seen if May will ask for a short delay (months) or a long one (possibly years). Given the last two years I don’t know what utility a short delay would have, probably none so obviously that’s what they’ll ask for.

Also all EU members must agree to grant it.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
No deal is not off the table. The politicians have voted against no deal being an option. Which is a fatuous position.

At the moment it's like we have jumped out of an aeroplane, decided not to pull the rip cord on the parachute but voted not to hit the ground even if we do nothing else.

lol
 

AlanWade

Member
Mar 4, 2019
58
7
41
Parlment has voted to extend Article 50. Remains to be seen if May will ask for a short delay (months) or a long one (possibly years). Given the last two years I don’t know what utility a short delay would have, probably none so obviously that’s what they’ll ask for.

Also all EU members must agree to grant it.

Its getting interesting.........
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
Can't believe they voted overwhelmingly against a second referendum.

"Do we want to put the gun we're holding against our head down?"
"No! Instead let's move it into our mouths instead"
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,815
136
Can't believe they voted overwhelmingly against a second referendum.

After watching this for a couple years it seems entirely believable. I really doubt the stupid will end anytime soon either.
 
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