Brexit: How the Conservative Right screwed England and makes Trump/Republican incompetencies look small

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Lifer
May 30, 2008
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You might want to take a look at this map if you think it was only northern England that voted for Brexit

https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

Yes, a lot of Brexit voters were older conservative people who never liked the EU in the first place, or were affluent Tories in the South, but it's those who made the difference at the margins that are the issue- the people one would have hoped would support the EU but didn't. Possibly similar to what happened with Trump (though I am agnostic as to whether the two cases are actually all that similar, I get that there are obvious parallels but I don't know that any two political situations are ever really 'the same').

Listening to phone-ins (or speaking to certain of my neighbours, though as I'm in London I don't meet many Brexit-voters) I honestly get the feeling it's all a bit too late, that we crossed some invisible line when people weren't paying attention. Many people seem to be past the point of being able to listen to reason. A proportion of pro-Brexit callers one hears on phone-ins are just incoherently angry, about pretty-much everything. You get more rational presenters struggling to get them to explain how their all-aspects anger actually relates to the Brexit issue. Somehow all these at-best-tangentially-related issues get hurled at the EU like Molotov cocktails (in a bottle of nonsense about "control" and "sovereignty".)

When people get worked up about their deeply insecure job situations and blame it on all the EU immigration they see, on the presence of EU migrants they feel are competing with them and undercutting them in our crap casualised labour market, I do believe they are mistaken about what is going on. But though the EU and those who supported it might not have caused the problems they have failed to do much about them for too long, and a worrying number of people seem to be past the point of listening any more.

Idiot Cameron opened Pandora's box and all these demons flew out (did Pandora's box unleash demons, or am I thinking of the Ark of the Covenant in Indiana Jones? It would be nice if the Tories melted)

Oh, and then there's our dysfunctional political system - currently revealing just how unfit-for-purpose it is.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Come to think of it, the Tory party does appear to be melting like the Nazis in that Indiana Jones denouement. Though that would suggest the only way to protect yourself is to close your eyes and not look at Brexit.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Well they can soothe their bones beside the fire after clinging on in silent desperation and try to keep acting like they're mentally superior while partaking in one of the dumbest political clownshows in all of human history.
 
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Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,213
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Just be glad you don't have to hear people going on about it all the time. Turns out that this country is full of crazy people. Everyone convinced the little social bubble they live in constitutes the entire world. Everyone they know is a Express-reading baby-boomer who supports Brexit, ergo the entire country is pro-Brexit and the MPs are the ones who are 'out of touch' and Nigel Farage should have been Prime Minister (despite never even managing to get elected as an MP).

Not to mention the constant warnings of rioting and violence if we don't leave the EU. I actually think they are right that there will be rioting, outbreaks of violence, etc, but not in the way they say, not immediately, and certainly not only if we don't leave. These political divisions and problems won't go away whether we leave or stay, there will be increasing conflict over the long-term, I think. Brexiters imagine they are the only angry ones, and that they are all angry in the same way and will be angry together in unison against the 'remainer elite', but I don't think it will play out like that at all.

And it won't only be the UK that is probably going to see increasing conflict - look at what is happening in France and Poland.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,527
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Apparently David Cameron still doesn’t regret calling for the referendum. He is either incredibly dishonest or incredibly stupid.
 
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Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
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He's both.

Nah, he's just extremely privileged. And hence completely insulated from the concquences of his actions. Hence he doesn't _need_ to regret anything. I guess privilege is a form of stupidity in a way. If people can afford to be stupid, they will be.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,710
43,984
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So when these idiots finally get their way and get their Brexit, what's the timeline for the UK requesting to be let into the EU? Any guesses?
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
Apparently David Cameron still doesn’t regret calling for the referendum. He is either incredibly dishonest or incredibly stupid.

Dishonest, I say. As I recall, he was heard singing a joyous song to himself after he announced his resignation. It sure sounded like he was happy he didn't have to deal with the shitstorm he'd created.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
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52% get what they want, 48% can go to hell wearing gasoline underwear. This is what we want, unconstrained democracy, a direct vote by the people to choose their path forward.
No, this isn't what we want. We want democratically elected leaders, or in other words, a democratic republic. I personally am largely opposed to the use of ballot measures, because these are pure democracy. The purpose of a republic is that an average citizen doesn't have time, particularly in today's complex world, to research and understand the ramifications of complex legislation. This was particularly evident with Brexit. The average voter was clueless about what it would mean to leave the European Union. This is why we instead elect leaders that then represent our general interests. Eliminating the electoral college would not make America cease to be a republic.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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Nah, he's just extremely privileged. And hence completely insulated from the concquences of his actions. Hence he doesn't _need_ to regret anything. I guess privilege is a form of stupidity in a way. If people can afford to be stupid, they will be.

His idiocy comes in thinking that he'll be insulated from what will come about due to his enabling (and thus validating) the rage of the idiots he's played. It was fueled by his idiocy that his dishonesty would go unnoticed, when that was what was actually fueling that rage.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,213
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His idiocy comes in thinking that he'll be insulated from what will come about due to his enabling (and thus validating) the rage of the idiots he's played. It was fueled by his idiocy that his dishonesty would go unnoticed, when that was what was actually fueling that rage.

I'm not sure it's worth arguing over whether he's stupid, over-privileged, wicked, or some permutation of the three! Either way I don't much care for the fellow!

But just to explore the general point...

I have a general reluctance to invoke the quality of stupidity, I think, because it seems an inherently conservative concept. Talk of stupidity seems to bring in the implication that some people are somehow intrinsically and innately smarter than others. And that is what the right do, when they want to ascribe the good fortune of the privileged to their intrinsic virtues. Hence their frequent fixation on finding race or class based differences in 'IQ'. Claims of intelligence are often just an obfuscated reference to class.

Secondly, when people declare someone to be stupid, it often seems to involve a failure of empathy or imagination - things that appear stupid from the outside often make sense to the individual given their particular experiences and circumstances. Most people, I think, are actually quite rational, it's just that we can't always see the same incentives and costs that they see. I think this applies even to actually mentally-ill people, its just that the particular context in which they make seemingly incomprehensible decisions is even more opaque to outsiders then usual. I reckon even really mentally-ill people are in fact doing their best to put a rational intepretation on unprocessable experiences.

Cameron isn't stupid, his high-level of academic qualifications surely demonstrates that? But someone who comes from a highly privileged background probably does 'learn' that nothing bad will happen to him no matter what he does - all these current Tory toffs seem to see politics as just a jolly game. They seem very different to previous generations of Tory. The Thatcher generation were unusually middle-class, in contrast to the benignant toffs that came before, but even the upper class Tories that Thacher's lot supplanted actually had to face a lot of hardship, as the traditional upper-class almost went out of their way to make things really tough for their children.

This current lot are unprecedented, I reckon, in having all the insulation from concquences that come from class privilege, while combing that with the loss of that hair-shirt mentality that earlier generations of posh people had. Hence they are unusually inept and disinclined to consider the full consequences of actions.

And, sadly, I think Cameron _will_ be fairly insulated from the consequences of his piss-poor decision.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Sorry, don't care (nor do I have any clue why you put so much effort into trying to defend his stupidity, especially after you said you wouldn't, let alone with that tripe, yes yes blah blah a fish thinks its stupid because it can't climb trees and holy shit are you seriously fucking defending him by trying to claim I'm talking about Eugenics? WHAT THE FUCK?). Cameron is stupid for having pushed for the referendum (and for not doing a goddamn thing about the lies that the shitspewers in the ranks of the conservatives were fine with pushing), and he let his stupidity (that him and the conservatives hadn't fueled enough hatred that people might just vote to leave), blind himself (he thought he'd get to point to that rage as reason why the EU should make even more concessions for these fucking idiots still trying to live off the British Empire mindset, and big surprise he instead just fucked a pig on TV and now expects the rest of the country to fuck that pig with him).

I hope it bites him hard. Just because he is privileged to have a lower likelihood of experiencing the suffering that far too many people do, well I don't believe in karma, but there's a lot of people like him that end up miserable all the same directly because of their own actions. We'll see what his place in history is to be, I think he has an idea of where it might end up based on him trying to slink into the shadows hoping people forget he was the one that instigated this. It could get even worse too. I won't be surprised if a couple decades down the road he's considered worse than Chamberlain (his saving grace is that Tony Blair is near enough, and then Theresa May and whomever ends up taking over the conservatives is likely to be an even bigger piece of shit; but if they keep fucking around and end up with a no deal Brexit and possibly an extra pissed of EU because of their stupid shenanigans, that his role will likely be solidified as there'll probably be a constant chaotic mix of leaders and none of them well liked but people also understanding that because Cameron decided to have them fuck the pig, that well they weren't really the ones to blame for their shitty situation). Poor bastard thought he might could be a modern enlightened Thatcher. Too bad he's too stupid to realize that ideology fuels the shittiness and that Thatcher was in the way of progress and trying to couple progress with his ideology is just going to lead to incredibly stupid shit like Brexit. Which, no, he's not totally stupid in all ways, he could see it. But because he is stupid, thought he wasn't leading down the same road. And in so doing he might have started them on the path to something worse. London Calling to the zombies of death, quit holding out and draw another breath! Let's hope some form of sanity reigns before then.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,213
136
Sorry, don't care (nor do I have any clue why you put so much effort into trying to defend his stupidity, especially after you said you wouldn't, let alone with that tripe, yes yes blah blah a fish thinks its stupid because it can't climb trees and holy shit are you seriously fucking defending him by trying to claim I'm talking about Eugenics? WHAT THE FUCK?). Cameron is stupid for having pushed for the referendum (and for not doing a goddamn thing about the lies that the shitspewers in the ranks of the conservatives were fine with pushing), and he let his stupidity (that him and the conservatives hadn't fueled enough hatred that people might just vote to leave), blind himself (he thought he'd get to point to that rage as reason why the EU should make even more concessions for these fucking idiots still trying to live off the British Empire mindset, and big surprise he instead just fucked a pig on TV and now expects the rest of the country to fuck that pig with him).

I hope it bites him hard. Just because he is privileged to have a lower likelihood of experiencing the suffering that far too many people do, well I don't believe in karma, but there's a lot of people like him that end up miserable all the same directly because of their own actions. We'll see what his place in history is to be, I think he has an idea of where it might end up based on him trying to slink into the shadows hoping people forget he was the one that instigated this. It could get even worse too. I won't be surprised if a couple decades down the road he's considered worse than Chamberlain (his saving grace is that Tony Blair is near enough, and then Theresa May and whomever ends up taking over the conservatives is likely to be an even bigger piece of shit; but if they keep fucking around and end up with a no deal Brexit and possibly an extra pissed of EU because of their stupid shenanigans, that his role will likely be solidified as there'll probably be a constant chaotic mix of leaders and none of them well liked but people also understanding that because Cameron decided to have them fuck the pig, that well they weren't really the ones to blame for their shitty situation). Poor bastard thought he might could be a modern enlightened Thatcher. Too bad he's too stupid to realize that ideology fuels the shittiness and that Thatcher was in the way of progress and trying to couple progress with his ideology is just going to lead to incredibly stupid shit like Brexit. Which, no, he's not totally stupid in all ways, he could see it. But because he is stupid, thought he wasn't leading down the same road. And in so doing he might have started them on the path to something worse. London Calling to the zombies of death, quit holding out and draw another breath! Let's hope some form of sanity reigns before then.


That's quite an over-excited wall-of-text, there. Not sure why you think that not going in for dodgy snobbish ideologies about 'intelligence' constitutes 'defending' Cameron. Do you not realise how the concept of 'intellgience' gets used? And why do you want to let him off the hook by excusing his actions as being down to 'stupidity'?

The reality is he probably won't personally suffer much as a result of this. Hopefully it will cause him some psychological distress to see the Tory party tear itself apart over Brexit, but the reality one learns in life is that "baddies" don't always get a comeuppance.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47875923

Just...so May is asking for another delay (to end of June) and the EU is pretty much "nah, you clearly got some shit to sort out, how about we offer you a year?" and May's/conservatives' response is basically "fuck you don't be surprised if we decide to say fuck it and go through with it before the delay deadline we're asking for. How dare you offer us more!"

I do love how they spin the "agreement on the orderly withdrawal of the UK from the EU" with Merkel though. I'm guessing its more Merkel is "yeah so at some point we're gonna stop letting you dipshits dick around and just boot your asses as its just too much hassle to deal with" and May not really having a goddamn choice in the matter because she's a lameduck PM and her own party thinks she's become worthless but doesn't want to boot her because it'd make them look foolish having trotted her out with their idiotic idea of how Brexit should go (which obviously it was not going to go).
 
Mar 11, 2004
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That's quite an over-excited wall-of-text, there. You seem very confused. All over the place, politically (like a few posters here). Not sure why you think that not going in for dodgy snobbish ideologies about 'intelligence' constitutes 'defending' Cameron. Do you not realise how the concept of 'intellgience' gets used? And why do you want to let him off the hook by excusing his actions as being down to 'stupidity'?

Says the person that wrote an equally long "wall of text" (psst, its only a wall of text if there's no breaks and often little punctuation such that just simply discerning distinct statements becomes difficult).

Oh you could tell? I mean, I only literally told you that I was confused why you were responding as you were seeing as how you said you wouldn't defend him (but then proceeded to do just that), and resorted to silly arguments that are fine for teaching kids to not call people stupid but in no way addressed any of my actual argument. But I'm sure it made you feel smart, so thumbs up bucko! Good Job, wish I could slap a sticker on your paper for ya!

Dodgy snobbish ideologies? Um, what? How was I dodgy? Like at all? Just, wow. Plus, you're literally doing exactly what you're complaining about and accusing me of doing, but mmmkay. Guessing I struck a nerve pointing out that British conservatives are into pig fucking just as much as the American ones? (oooh, I think I just realized a fundamental schism between them and Muslims!)

Oh, so you're just trying to realibrad shit? Yeah, so I'm done with this silly exercise in "hey kids, don't call people stupid cause that's mean!". Sorry, but quibbling about societal norms of intelligence has nothing to do with this conversation, but you're free to debate that with someone else. Meanwhile, I'll stay on topic and not try to play Jordan Peterson.

Wow, just noticed you're now trying to say I'm letting him off the hook? What the fuck? Hahahahahahah, holy shit...so I was too mean for calling his actions stupid, but somehow I'm letting him off the hook by calling his maliciousness stupid? Can you even keep your own stupid bullshit straight?
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,213
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Says the person that wrote an equally long "wall of text" (psst, its only a wall of text if there's no breaks and often little punctuation such that just simply discerning distinct statements becomes difficult).

Yup, that was my point. You barely used any paragraph breaks, and your sentences all ran-on in a stream-of-conciousness fashion.

You seem too over-excited and generically angry to engage with. Rather like a Brexiter, in fact.

But go on excusing Cameron if you want.
 
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