Broadwell TDP, partially DDR4?

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,173
2,211
136





http://www.ti.com.tw/downloads/LCFC-sem/topics_6.pdf


Broadwell-ULX 4-6W and the upper Broadwell-ULT 25W, other models unchanged TDP. The unchanged 15W for ULT models gives me hope that we will see a bigger performance improvement. Haswell-ULT couldn't really improve its CPU because of the lowered TDP. I wonder if Broadwell-K comes with DDR4 given that Broadwell-H seems to use DDR4.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
5-8W Broadwell-Y. Lots of Core-powered thin-light fanless devices next year.
 

sniffin

Member
Jun 29, 2013
141
22
81
5-8W Broadwell-Y. Lots of Core-powered thin-light fanless devices next year.

Even at extremely low clockspeeds it should easily clean up everything else. I don't see why anybody would choose anything else over Broadwell if those TDPs are real and it is capable of fanless operation in tablet form. Sort of terrifying if you're one of the dozen (or so?) companies who use ARM designs.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
0
Even at extremely low clockspeeds it should easily clean up everything else. I don't see why anybody would choose anything else over Broadwell if those TDPs are real and it is capable of fanless operation in tablet form. Sort of terrifying if you're one of the dozen (or so?) companies who use ARM designs.

They'll be no more terrified of these than they are of the current Haswell-Y chips that were supposed to do the same thing 6 months ago. They are just too expensive, completely different markets in reality.
 

strata8

Member
Mar 5, 2013
135
0
76
Even at extremely low clockspeeds it should easily clean up everything else. I don't see why anybody would choose anything else over Broadwell if those TDPs are real and it is capable of fanless operation in tablet form. Sort of terrifying if you're one of the dozen (or so?) companies who use ARM designs.

You're greatly overestimating the performance of Haswell at those power levels. A cheap Haswell clocked at 800 MHz (9.5W TDP) doesn't even beat the Atom Z3770 (<4W) in single-threaded tasks and has half the cores so gets blown away in anything multi-threaded.

Unless Broadwell somehow halves the TDP and increases performance significantly, the situation isn't going to change much.
 

sniffin

Member
Jun 29, 2013
141
22
81
You're greatly overestimating the performance of Haswell at those power levels. A cheap Haswell clocked at 800 MHz (9.5W TDP) doesn't even beat the Atom Z3770 (<4W) in single-threaded tasks and has half the cores so gets blown away in anything multi-threaded.

Unless Broadwell somehow halves the TDP and increases performance significantly, the situation isn't going to change much.

Where did you get 800MHz from? Haswell Y (the 4.5W SPD models) have base frequencies of 1.5GHz and 1.6Ghz depending on the model. And then, Broadwell is expected to lower power usage by 30% according to Intels own slides so expect a nice bump in base frequency with a small IPC boost on top.

This is the lowest end model: http://ark.intel.com/products/76610/Intel-Core-i5-4202Y-Processor-3M-Cache-up-to-2_00-GHz

half the cores so gets blown away in anything multi-threaded.

Do you buy tablets to run benches with or do you buy a tablet to do tablet things? 4 slow cores are as useless in tablets as they are on PCs.
 
Last edited:

teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
361
199
116
Even at extremely low clockspeeds it should easily clean up everything else. I don't see why anybody would choose anything else over Broadwell if those TDPs are real and it is capable of fanless operation in tablet form. Sort of terrifying if you're one of the dozen (or so?) companies who use ARM designs.

Why? If Intel sells Broadwell for 25$ then it's Intel that gets problems. But I'm pretty sure they'll sell it for much more so they won't compete.

Focus for tablets are price, display and weight. So expensive CPU's will just be a small niche for tablets.

Intel makes great CPU's but the price competition from ARM soc's is not easy to handle.

The statistics are clear, desktops and laptops decrease sale, tablets and smartphones increase sale. This means less money to Intel.
 

sniffin

Member
Jun 29, 2013
141
22
81
Why? If Intel sells Broadwell for 25$ then it's Intel that gets problems. But I'm pretty sure they'll sell it for much more so they won't compete.

Focus for tablets are price, display and weight. So expensive CPU's will just be a small niche for tablets.

Intel makes great CPU's but the price competition from ARM soc's is not easy to handle.

The statistics are clear, desktops and laptops decrease sale, tablets and smartphones increase sale. This means less money to Intel.

What makes you think Intel can't let them go for less if they need to? They charge what they do because they can, not necessarily because they need to. Sure maybe budget tablets are probably a no go but if Intel clean up in other segments then I'm pretty sure everybody else is going to feel the pinch if they're confined to dirt cheap models. Tablets could be a way to subsidize more lucrative markets, the same way a company like Nvidia fund their HPC aspirations with lower margin mainstream GPUs. The only question Intel need to ask themselves is whether or not it's worth using their limited 14nm fab capacity for. The problem isn't whether they'll make money or not, it's whether they'll make enough to justify it
 
Last edited:

strata8

Member
Mar 5, 2013
135
0
76
Where did you get 800MHz from? Haswell Y (the 4.5W SPD models) have base frequencies of 1.5GHz and 1.6Ghz depending on the model. And then, Broadwell is expected to lower power usage by 30% according to Intels own slides so expect a nice bump in base frequency with a small IPC boost on top.

This is the lowest end model: http://ark.intel.com/products/76610/Intel-Core-i5-4202Y-Processor-3M-Cache-up-to-2_00-GHz



Do you buy tablets to run benches with or do you buy a tablet to do tablet things? 4 slow cores are as useless in tablets as they are on PCs.

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...obile-u-y-processor-lines-vol-1-datasheet.pdf

Section 5.5, Table 23.

For Y processors, 11.5W TDP @ 1.3-1.4 GHz, no SDP.

9.5W TDP @ 800 MHz, with an SDP of either 6W or 4.5W.

Note that the Atom Z3770 has an SDP of 2W. So even if Broadwell does lower power usage it still can't compete with Bay Trail, much less Cherry Trail.
 
Last edited:

strata8

Member
Mar 5, 2013
135
0
76
Could you explain what I linked then?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/13-h200ed-i5-4202Y-1-6-2-0GHz-1920x1080-Anti-Glare/dp/B00FC7WLKI

Said cpu in a convertible tablet

A $1100 convertible is probably not the best candidate to show competitiveness against ARM chips and Atom.

But I've checked out the review on NotebookCheck and it can actually turbo up to 2 GHz when loading the CPU, so I was wrong there. The clocks do drop to 800 MHz when both the CPU+GPU are stressed though (ie, games).
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,173
2,211
136
5-8W Broadwell-Y. Lots of Core-powered thin-light fanless devices next year.


Not sure why the first slide says 5-8W, the Intels specification slide and all other slides in this pdf say 4-6W. TDP could change we should note depending on how good or bad the final silicon runs on a further advanced 14nm process.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Last time I saw a platform roadmap (wish I could remember where), DDR4 wasn't coming to the desktop till Skylake. Obviously, these slides present something different. I can't imagine why Broadwell-Y would use DDR4, unless, as you are suggesting, that the DDR4 IMC draws less current that LPDDR3. I don't know where LPDDR4 stands in terms of it's development and release - I'm not a JEDEC partner

I'm still a bit baffled by DDR4. I though it was supposed to be a point to point serial interface, yet it has more pins than DDR3 had (288 vs 250)
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
I'm still a bit baffled by DDR4. I though it was supposed to be a point to point serial interface, yet it has more pins than DDR3 had (288 vs 250)

Its still a parallel bus. Point to Point limits it to 1 DIMM per channel. So a dualchannel DDR4 board will only have 2 sockets.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,173
2,211
136
LPDDR4 need more time, it comes a year later. Maybe with Skylake-ULX. DDR4 for some ULX/ULT isn't new actually, we already knew this from other sources. DDR4 for Broadwell-H is new.
 

JDG1980

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2013
1,663
570
136
Even at extremely low clockspeeds it should easily clean up everything else. I don't see why anybody would choose anything else over Broadwell if those TDPs are real and it is capable of fanless operation in tablet form. Sort of terrifying if you're one of the dozen (or so?) companies who use ARM designs.

We hear the same song every generation: this time, this time, Intel is finally going to vanquish ARM and take over the tablet/smartphone market once and for all! But it never happens. It didn't happen with Haswell and it won't happen with Broadwell.

Intel corporate strategy demands >60% profit margins on everything. As long as that is the case, there's no way that they can be competitive in these price-sensitive markets.
 

386user

Member
Mar 11, 2013
66
0
16
is there any definitive broadwell igp info yet?

ive only seen 30% less power and conjecture
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
We hear the same song every generation: this time, this time, Intel is finally going to vanquish ARM and take over the tablet/smartphone market once and for all! But it never happens. It didn't happen with Haswell and it won't happen with Broadwell.

Intel corporate strategy demands >60% profit margins on everything. As long as that is the case, there's no way that they can be competitive in these price-sensitive markets.

Bay Trail already seem to have secured a good part of the tablet segment.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,839
5,456
136
Bay Trail already seem to have secured a good part of the tablet segment.

I don't think I've seen actual sales numbers yet. The last projection I saw (I think it was for 2015) had MS at 5% of the tablet market; with Android with 60-something and Apple with the rest. So I imagine we won't really know how popular Bay Trail is going to be in tablets until the Android devices show up.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Its still a parallel bus. Point to Point limits it to 1 DIMM per channel. So a dualchannel DDR4 board will only have 2 sockets.

If it's P2P, it's not a bus anymore. So it's still parallel data xfer, then the pin count makes more sense, probably more gnd and sig lines on DDR4 I assume.

LPDDR4 need more time, it comes a year later. Maybe with Skylake-ULX. DDR4 for some ULX/ULT isn't new actually, we already knew this from other sources. DDR4 for Broadwell-H is new.

Thanks for the info!
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
If it's P2P, it's not a bus anymore. So it's still parallel data xfer, then the pin count makes more sense, probably more gnd and sig lines on DDR4 I assume.

Point to Point topology, parallel bus is a better description I guess.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Point to Point topology, parallel bus is a better description I guess.

Well, I had to look it up. Used to be busses, in electronics, where for multi-point connections, but now the word 'bus' is used for P2P and multi-point connections. That's what I get for being and old skool physics major :$
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |