Originally posted by: Acanthus
Build a $1500 machine and upgrade video cards every generation.
Youll wind up having a better experience in the long run.
I strongly suggest avoiding creative if you are going to use windows vista.
If you are getting a quad core CPU, getting a raid controller is overkill, as software raid wont be eating enough cpu time to matter.
Also if you arent running SLI or Crossfire (also not recommended for Vista as of this posting) you dont need anywhere near a 700w PSU.
A much more reasonable system:
-Case of choice
-Motherboard with G33 chipset (to support Penryn processors coming this winter)
-Intel Q6600 Core 2 Quad
-4GB DDR2-800 (i reccomend super talent from newegg, its cheap right now for 2x1GB)
-Integrated Azalia sound
-Integrated Raid Controller
-Burner of choice
-For HDs i reccomend the SATAII Seagate 7200.10 perpendicular drives, particularly the 250GB model as it uses a single 250GB platter and they are *VERY* cheap and perform like their high end counterparts, because the high end models are identical but add more platters to the drive to increase capacity. I reccomend getting 3 and running them in Raid 5, this gives you a large speed boost and redundancy so if a drive fails you dont lose data.
-HSF of choice (stock fan is fine if youre not overclocking)
-Paste of choice
-Fans if they arent already built into your case of choice
-Geforce 8800GTX (not ultra, ripoff for very little gain)
This system will cost *HALF* of the one above, have twice as much ram, and not flip out in vista because of weird creative drivers.
Also note that the latest round of driver updates have brought vista virtually equal to XP in gaming.
Updating your graphics card to the "flagship" every revision will give you a much better long term experience than some high end SLI or Crossfire system you build now. Typically the next generation card is as fast if not faster than the previous generations mutli-card setup.
Despite all that, using Vista for gaming right now is a really bad choice because it increases overhead and has driver issues with a lot of hardware (even new hardware) still. Before anybody goes primetime with Vista they should wait for SP1 to be released or for solid driver support.
Also, I intentionally put 2GB instead of 4GB in that configuration because 4GB isn't even usable under XP, and isn't properly usable under Vista unless you go 64 bit. Not only that, but because DDR2 uses a T topology you will get higher memory speeds by only populating 2 banks, instead of all 4. If you want 4GB, you should be doing 2x2GB instead of 4x1GB anyway, just for the speed boost of 1T over 2T.
Originally posted by: Tristor
I'll whip you up a suggestion. For $3k you can do some serious stuff.
Alright, this is just for your system, not for your monitor, keyboard, mouse, headphones or speakers, etc.
Case: CM Stacker
Mobo: Asus P5K Deluxe
GFX: EVGA 8800GTX
PSU: Enermax Infinity 720W
CPU: Intel Q6600
RAM: Crucial Ballistix DDR21066 2GB dual-channel kit
Sound: Creative X-Fi ExtremeGamer Fatality
Optical: Samsung 18x SATA burner
RAID Controller: LSI Logic 4 port SAS/SATAII
System Drive(s): 2x Fujitsu MAX 74GB 15k RPM SAS (in RAID 0)
Storage Drive(s): Hitachi Deskstar 1TB SATAII
HSF: Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Paste: Masscool Shin-Etsu
Fans: 3x Scythe S-Flex 120mm
Subtotal: $2935.85
I guarantee this will be lightning fast and also allow you to do a nice OC on that Q6600 (3.2?). You might opt for a nicer dual-core instead of the quad-core, since most games won't take advantage of all four cores and you can get higher clock speeds (3.6 at least?).
With your budget, SAS is worth it. Drives are way faster than their SATAII counterparts (mainly due to rotational speed) and SAS RAID setups almost always peak close to the theoretical max on burst and sustained throughput (~295MB/s, theoretical max is 300MB/s). Will make a pair of Raptors or even a pair of the large cache 320GB WDs look like a turtle next to a hare.
Also, use XP Pro with this, because the drivers in Vista for the X-Fi cards are still wonky and XP has less overhead so tends to enjoy a performance advantage over Vista in games. If you don't have the monitor/mouse/keyboard you want already and you don't want to exceed your budget, you could drop the SAS setup for a second 1TB drive (they are rather fast as it is, due to perpendicular recording and large cache size) and grab a logitech G5 and G15 and whatever monitor suits your fancy in the LCD Thread
Originally posted by: Cutthroat
Despite all that, using Vista for gaming right now is a really bad choice because it increases overhead and has driver issues with a lot of hardware (even new hardware) still. Before anybody goes primetime with Vista they should wait for SP1 to be released or for solid driver support.
FUD!
Do you use Vista? It is fine for gaming now, the difference in speed is insignificant. The only new hardware not properly supported currently that I can think of is X-Fi cards, and that's Creative's fault. Just don't buy a Creative card if you are going to use Vista. And what makes you think that SP1 will fix vendors drivers?
Also, I intentionally put 2GB instead of 4GB in that configuration because 4GB isn't even usable under XP, and isn't properly usable under Vista unless you go 64 bit. Not only that, but because DDR2 uses a T topology you will get higher memory speeds by only populating 2 banks, instead of all 4. If you want 4GB, you should be doing 2x2GB instead of 4x1GB anyway, just for the speed boost of 1T over 2T.
If you use a P35 motherboard you probably aren't going to get 1T command rate to work anyway, unless you underclock. But I do agree not to fill all 4 slots if possible, no matter how much RAM you decide to go with.
Originally posted by: Mr Fox
The SCSI stuff is really not the way to go... the Warranty on $900.00 of Hard Drives and Controller Is 1 Year. They are fast.. but when they Die You are Screwed....
That is almost $ 1000.00 of sheer waste add to it that Creative Fatality POS... and you are there....
For Half The Cost a pair of Raptors(5 year warranty), and A Motherboard that supports Native Driver less RAID 0 and Then a Pair of 500 Gig SATA II to back-up data, and Mirror to makes a hell of a lot more Sense Long Term Operation wise.
Storage Review
P35 is the north bridge Chipset of Choice G33 is an Economy Solution.
The Intel ICH9R is the preferred south bridge.
ASUS P5K Family are good units.
Okay, Vista having more overhead than XP is /not/ FUD. I'm glad you are having a wonderful time in candyland with Vista, but it's not all rainbows and sunshine. It's really personal preference, you may think the difference is "insignificant", but I do not. As far as driver issues in Vista go, most have been resolved as far as getting the hardware working (with the exception of the Creative drivers, which I agree do suck), but the drivers manufacturers have released for Vista tend to be a bit bloated compared to their XP counterparts. In particular, looking at the nVidia drivers for Vista vs XP, you will see that the XP drivers are a little more efficient than the Vista drivers (for whatever reason). Interestingly, the XP drivers are larger in size. Really though, it doesn't matter. Right now, XP is better because it has a slight speed advantage (you consider it insignificant) and there aren't enough DX10 only titles worth playing.
Originally posted by: Tristor
Originally posted by: Mr Fox
The SCSI stuff is really not the way to go... the Warranty on $900.00 of Hard Drives and Controller Is 1 Year. They are fast.. but when they Die You are Screwed....
That is almost $ 1000.00 of sheer waste add to it that Creative Fatality POS... and you are there....
For Half The Cost a pair of Raptors(5 year warranty), and A Motherboard that supports Native Driver less RAID 0 and Then a Pair of 500 Gig SATA II to back-up data, and Mirror to makes a hell of a lot more Sense Long Term Operation wise.
Storage Review
P35 is the north bridge Chipset of Choice G33 is an Economy Solution.
The Intel ICH9R is the preferred south bridge.
ASUS P5K Family are good units.
That's not $900 worth of hard drives, it's $600 worth of hard drives, and I wouldn't be horribly concerned about the warranty. I've had a lot of good experiences with Fujitsu SCSI drives, and the MTBF on them is amazing. I highly doubt you will have a failure within a meaningful amount of time that falls outside the warranty period. In addition to that, Raptors are not the fastest kid on the block anymore. It's now faster to RAID0 some of the higher cached single platter SATA3 drives (like the 320GB WDs or 250GB 7200.10 seagates) than it is to use Raptors. Regardless of what sort of storage solution you go with though, you don't want to use software or onboard RAID, because they both suck for throughput. You will get /much/ better results using a controller card (areca and 3ware make the best sata stuff, and adaptec and lsi tend to make the best SAS stuff).
Storage Review doesn't even list SAS drives, just fyi, nor do they seem to be making comparisons between RAID and non-RAID speeds either.
EDIT: As a side note, I don't consider the cost of RAID0 in gaming desktops to be justified, but if you have the budget, even an 8-10% increase in real performance might be something you would justify. I do think with his budget going for SAS over just using the onboard SATAII is justified, as in a single drive configuration the SAS will > onboard SATAII (although SAS and SATAII performance should be more or less identical at the same spindle speed on the same controller). Also, the 750GB and 1TB deskstars are faster than raptors and have more space for essentially the same $$$.
Originally posted by: Mr Fox
<snip>
Your statements are not backed by any Empirical Data only references to the Theoretical. SCSI is impractical For Consumer desktop usage. It's Costs and Risks and Headaches far outweigh the potential gains. You can Throw out MTBF numbers all day long but they mean squat after that first year, especially if you blow one up.
Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 HDD
Only with 32 MB Cache 5 Platters, and 10 heads have they managed this. The Deskstar is the Only drive to Out Perform the Raptor in Single Drive Gaming Performance
Gaming Performance
At $ 360.00 Each They only have a Three Year Warranty At that same pricepoint I'm into 2x74 Gig Raptors with a Five Year Warranty, and Some Cash still left and about 125 Mb/s Continuous .
But your supposition that the "It's now faster to RAID0 some of the higher cached single platter SATA3 drives (like the 320GB WDs or 250GB 7200.10 seagates) than it is to use Raptors." Is way out is Left Field ............ Think about the Architecture you just laid out with the single platter, and then think about the Architecture of the Desk Star.
Show me some Data to back that up.... Good Luck !!!
The Other real kicker is read the Customer Reviews on that RAID Controller Nothing like Proprietary Cabling, and BIOS Corruption. Also a good SCSI Controller is About $300.00
Review #1
Absolutely Worthless
Reviewed By: Unc13S on 7/25/2007
Rating + 1Rating + 1Rating + 1Rating + 1Rating + 1
Tech Level: high - Ownership: 1 day to 1 week
Pros: None. Nada. Zip. Bumpkis. Zilch. Zero.
Cons: Proprietary cabling locks you into LSI for replacements and makes cable management a nightmare. BIOS interface is hideous. No support for any Linux distribution released in the last two years. Documentation? Response to support inquiries? What's that?
Other Thoughts: After a 10 days of watching the board commandeer and corrupt my board's BIOS, having it report that it can't see any of my drives, and no response from LSI, I'm sending this piece of shineola back. Complete waste of money. I might as well have used the cash for lighting cigars.
Review #2
Not for Linux
Reviewed By: Duck on 7/18/2007
Rating + 2Rating + 2Rating + 2Rating + 2Rating + 2
Tech Level: high - Ownership: 1 day to 1 week
Pros: Inexpensive, SAS and SATA II compatability. Nice fan out connectors. Low profile bracket included.
Cons: No open source driver for Linux. Linux drivers provided are for old versions of Redhat / SUSE. RAID management in the BIOS is poorly laid out.
Other Thoughts: I was expecting a great product as I had with my other LSI SCSI adapters. This adapter is useless in Linux at the moment. Maybe they will release open source driver some day.
Originally posted by: Tristor
Right now, XP is better because it has a slight speed advantage (you consider it insignificant) and there aren't enough DX10 only titles worth playing.
Originally posted by: TheKub
Originally posted by: Tristor
Right now, XP is better because it has a slight speed advantage (you consider it insignificant) and there aren't enough DX10 only titles worth playing.
His goal is to use this PC for the next 2-3 years. You think that there will be NO worthy DX10 games in the time frame? Id say go with Vista to avoid having to reinstall in the future. Yes its easy enough to do but its still annoying.
And having said that..
Its silly to buy an expensive PC to play games for 2+ years. Buy a good machine and update more often. You will get more bang for your buck.
Had a roomate in college that had a big epeen because he spent $450 on his video card when everybody else spent less than $200. Then about a a year or two later everyone else upgraded again for less than $200 and were running faster/looking better.
Originally posted by: Tristor
You should be reinstalling about every 6 months anyway, especially with a Windows system since the vagaries of installing and uninstalling software over that time span like to leave cobwebs about that a reinstall is the surest method of cleaning up.
Originally posted by: drakore
The scsi idea is good, however i think it is a little much. Also a gaming rig doesn't need a 1TB secondary. P5K is a good choice, but i would go for a single slot solution since an Nvidia card has been recommended. You could go for 2 x 2900XT's, but then u have to worry about heat + noise. Alternatively you could run 2 x watercooling loops, 1 for CPU NB SB, 1 for GPUs. Then that gets rid of that issue. But CF on a 16x and 4x isn't all that great. the 4x slot becomes limiting.
Originally posted by: jkresh
tristor, all p35 boards are x16 and x4, and crossfire on them isint much different then on x8/x8 boards (even with 2900xt's from what i have seen).