Building new PC - Suggestions welcome

[PreachTru]

1. What YOUR PC will be used for. That means what types of tasks you'll be performing.
This will be a gaming PC. Primarily World of Warcraft and the standard FPS games (Crysis, COD4 etc.)

2. What YOUR budget is. A price range is acceptable as long as it's not more than a 20% spread
$1100-$1400

3. What country YOU will be buying YOUR parts from.
United States

4. IF YOU have a brand preference. That means, are you an Intel-Fanboy, AMD-Fanboy, ATI-Fanboy, nVidia-Fanboy, Seagate-Fanboy, WD-Fanboy, etc, etc, etc, you get the picture.
Looking to go the route of Intel (Quad Core). Leaning towards ATI for vid card. Read a lot of reviews saying the 4870 was a solid card.

5. If YOU intend on using any of YOUR current parts, and if so, what those parts are.
I have one of the 1st gen WD Raptor drives I was thinking of re-using in the system. Wasnt sure if the SATA 1.5 would slow the system down versus the SATA 3.0. Re-using current Lian-Li case and Lite-On DVD-RW ATA drive. Also re-using 2x 500gb Seagate SATA 1.5 drives in an external USB 2.0 enclosure.

6. IF YOU have searched and/or read similar threads.
Yes, I have read through many different threads on this forum, and read countless reviews on componenets.

7. IF YOU plan on overclocking or run the system at default speeds.
Nothing too extreme. Just some "mild" overclocking.

8. WHEN do you plan to build it?
Within the next week or two

-----------------------------------------------------

Components I am thinking of purchasing:
Components edited on 24 Oct 08 @ 12:14pm CST


HD #1: Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM SATA

HD #2: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA

GPU: HIS Hightech H487F1GP Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16

RAM: G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775

Motherboard: ASUS P5Q Pro LGA 775 Intel P45

PSU: SeaSonic M12 SS-700HM 700W ATX12V V2.3 / EPS12V V2.91 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC

CPU Cooler: ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler

Total: $1071.31 shipped


Any comments/suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Denithor]

4870 1GB is a good choice, Sapphire is not. They charge a fee for RMA service (defective card -- they won't just swap it out? c'mon guys) and from what I've heard their service is pretty bad. Fortunately when my Sapphire x1900gt died it was still covered by Newegg's 1 year standard replacement warranty so I didn't have to deal with them.

For gaming a fast dual core is better than a slower quad core. Go for an e8400 and overclock to about 3.6GHz or so.

OCZ ram is cheap but it suffers from compatibility issues. If those modules are specifically on a compatibility sheet somewhere, go for it. Otherwise go with G.Skill or Mushkin instead (there's a Mushkin 2x2GB DDR2-800 kit at newegg for $50AR+FS).

You may not even need the old Raptor, today's drives (like the F1 you've picked out) run really fast and probably match that older technology pretty well.

 

[PreachTru]

Thanks for the heads up on Saphire, I wasn't aware of that.

For ram I was looking at one of these:

mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)

 

[PreachTru]

Thread updated with new components selected.

 

[Denithor]

If you're just doing "mild" overclocking -- no need to spend money on DDR2-1066. Just get DDR2-800, which will give you 3.6GHz on e8400 at stock memory speed (9x400fsb).

Mushkin 2x2GB DDR2-800 $50AR
Mushkin 2x2GB DDR2-800 $50AR

 

[PreachTru]

I think I'm going to stick with the quad core CPU. I've read that it is a good overclocker, and the higher speed RAM is just a few bucks more. I'm already well under my ideal price range, so the extra $30'ish isn't a big deal.

 

[sonnygdude]

$30 isn't that much, but it is 60% more than the Mushkin Denithor suggested for about 6% more performance.

I guess it depends whether you're a dollars guy or a percentage guy

 

[DSF]

DDR2-1066 isn't going to give you any noticeable performance increase. You're literally wasting $30. Just get the DDR2-800 as Denithor suggested.

 

[PreachTru]

Hmm, Ok. Decided to go with this then...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231122


Anyone have comments about the motherboard? From the reviews I've read it seems to be a solid choice.

 

[Denithor]

Asus P5Q Pro $120 - $15MIR = $105 shipped

Virtually the same board for $55 less cost.

 

[clovek1]

I thikn I would buy almost everything like you, with these comments and exceptions:

- 700W SeaSonic is an overkill power supply. but it's a good preparation for a future upgrade. i do recommend SeaSonic to almost everyone (except very budget oriented PC)

- I would prefer Q9300 before Q6600 now. I am operating a Q6600 at 2.88 GHz and nothing more is stable enough (tested with Orthos). Q9300 is slightly more expensive, but consumes less power and needs less cooling

- you may consider the upcomming Core i7 Intel CPU generation instead (will be release in next weeks). but it will be most probably too expensive to fit in your budget. It would require DDR3 RAM too (expensive)

- i would use 3rd party VGA cooler: AC Accelero S1 rev. 2
i have 4870 and the temperature dropped from 80C/85C idle/gaming to 35C/45C.
it doesnt however push the hot air out of the case.

- i would strongly recommend the best active silent CPU coller i have tried so far: Noctua NH-U12P

- you didnt mention your case. use only 12cm ventilator fans for silent computing (3rd party prefferable, Noctua or similar)

- i do recommend an anti-vibrating kit for the HDD. or just use hand made rubber fixation. SAMSUNG disk do vibrate significantly. may be the vibration can be noticed exceptionally well, because they dont produce much other noise (compared to other HDD brands)

 

[Roguestar]

Originally posted by: clovek1
I thikn I would buy almost everything like you, with these comments and exceptions:

- 700W SeaSonic is an overkill power supply. but it's a good preparation for a future upgrade. i do recommend SeaSonic to almost everyone (except very budget oriented PC)

- I would prefer Q9300 before Q6600 now. I am operating a Q6600 at 2.88 GHz and nothing more is stable enough (tested with Orthos). Q9300 is slightly more expensive, but consumes less power and needs less cooling

- you may consider the upcomming Core i7 Intel CPU generation instead (will be release in next weeks). but it will be most probably too expensive to fit in your budget. It would require DDR3 RAM too (expensive)

- i would use 3rd party VGA cooler: AC Accelero S1 rev. 2
i have 4870 and the temperature dropped from 80C/85C idle/gaming to 35C/45C.
it doesnt however push the hot air out of the case.

- i would strongly recommend the best active silent CPU coller i have tried so far: Noctua NH-U12P

- you didnt mention your case. use only 12cm ventilator fans for silent computing (3rd party prefferable, Noctua or similar)

- i do recommend an anti-vibrating kit for the HDD. or just use hand made rubber fixation. SAMSUNG disk do vibrate significantly. may be the vibration can be noticed exceptionally well, because they dont produce much other noise (compared to other HDD brands)

1: Q9300 is not a better choice for overclocking than the Q6600; the Q6600 has a higher multiplier so he won't be pushing his FSB and motherboard too hard before he can hit 3GHz unlike with the lower-multiplier Q9300.
2: Core i7 is simply out of his budget range, and he's gaming so there's no point.
3: OP should get something like the E8500 instead of the Q6600 seeing as he'll just have three cores sitting idle in games, and the clockspeed on the E8500 and ability to overclock higher will be better in gaming (but he'll not listen to this advice anyway).
4: Installing a 3rd party cooler voids warranty. Buying a card with a non-standard heatsink preinstalled is a much better choice, such as the sapphire revised board or toxic model (though I had not heard about RMA issues previously mentioned in this thread), or the Asus or Visiontek nonstandard cooler models.
5: Hard drive: OP should get a faster Western Digital 1TB Caviar Black if he's in the market for a 1TB drive.

 

[PreachTru]

Denithor and Roguestar, thanks for the input! I've actually changed my mind on the quad-core CPU and am going with a e8400. Don't really see a point in getting the e8500, unless I am missing something and is vastly superior. Also decided to go with the P5Q Pro motherboard.

So with the changes my total comes to $940.97 shipped (before mail-in rebates)... which I am extremely happy with

 

[Denithor]

e8400 is perfect (that's why I have two). Great stock speed, OC nicely, run much cooler than the previous generation of 65nm chips (and much much cooler than that q6600 you were considering).

The Caviar Black is certainly fast but it's not worth $100 extra for an extra 300GB IMO. The WD6400AKKS is probably the best performance/value drive available right now.

 

[PreachTru]

Hmm, there you go again Denithor.

I'm now looking at ditching the 1TB Samsung drive and getting these two drives (since I've already saved money on other components, and now I have a little wiggle room):

Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (bare drive) - OEM

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM


Removing the Samsung 1TB drive and replacing with the 2 listed above brings my total shipped to $1075.96!

 

[Roguestar]

Originally posted by: PreachTru
Denithor and Roguestar, thanks for the input! I've actually changed my mind on the quad-core CPU and am going with a e8400. Don't really see a point in getting the e8500, unless I am missing something and is vastly superior. Also decided to go with the P5Q Pro motherboard.

So with the changes my total comes to $940.97 shipped (before mail-in rebates)... which I am extremely happy with

E8400 and E8500 are both good, I had just dropped the second one as there have been a few offers on it recently that put it very close to the E8400. The faster dual-core will be better for gaming, so it's the better place to put your money. The P5Q is a good choice.

I'd personally not get the V'Raptor, I'd switch it out with thye WD 1TB Caviar Black instead as it's so very close to the V'Raptor's performance but has masses more storage (and isn't as loud as a 10K RPM drive).

 

[PreachTru]

Well, storage isn't too much of a concern for me. I'm going to be taking my two 500gb HDs out of my current system and putting them into an external enclosure.

So many choices out there =\

 

[clovek1]

1: Q9300 is not a better choice for overclocking than the Q6600; the Q6600 has a higher multiplier so he won't be pushing his FSB and motherboard too hard before he can hit 3GHz unlike with the lower-multiplier Q9300.
2: Core i7 is simply out of his budget range, and he's gaming so there's no point.
3: OP should get something like the E8500 instead of the Q6600 seeing as he'll just have three cores sitting idle in games, and the clockspeed on the E8500 and ability to overclock higher will be better in gaming (but he'll not listen to this advice anyway).
4: Installing a 3rd party cooler voids warranty. Buying a card with a non-standard heatsink preinstalled is a much better choice, such as the sapphire revised board or toxic model (though I had not heard about RMA issues previously mentioned in this thread), or the Asus or Visiontek nonstandard cooler models.
5: Hard drive: OP should get a faster Western Digital 1TB Caviar Black if he's in the market for a 1TB drive.

[/quote]

1. according to my expirience Q6600 doesnt overclock that much in reality. terefore Q9300 would give about the same 3.0GHz or below with less heat.
2. agree, too expensive now. but i dont agree, that i7 will not be for games
3. I agree, that E8xxx will overclock better than Qxxxx. you can expect 2.88-3.00 GHz with Qxxx and about 3.2 GHz with Exxxx . I mean STABLE (Orthis running for at least a hour) and SAFE (CPU will survive few years and not few weeks) overclocing without rising the Vcore significantly and with relatively quiet CPU fan operation (about 1000 rpm).
4. agree, this voids warranty. but the VGA cooler can be stored and mounted back in case of a VGA failure. preinstalled quitet VGA cooler is very good idea. but there are few cards, that offer this. They are not allways that much quiet and their number is limited
5. i think SAMSUNG is quite a good option. its cheap, its stable (unlike MAXTOR), can be set up for FAST or QUIET operation. SAMSUNG disks are very good for silent PCs.
SAMSUNG disks produce the least heat of all normal HDD.
the speed of a HDD is used usually only during a Windows boot or when loading a new level of a game. othervise the performance has no impact on regular user. the noise however has impact all the time, when PC is up.

 

[clovek1]

3: OP should get something like the E8500 instead of the Q6600 seeing as he'll just have three cores sitting idle in games, and the clockspeed on the E8500 and ability to overclock higher will be better in gaming (but he'll not listen to this advice anyway).

3. its not true, that games use only 1 core now.
most new games use 2 cores allready (Crysis, World of Warcraft, .... almost all)
some games do allready use up to 4 cores: Unreal3 and all games based on this engine (will be many in the future), Supreme Commander and few others.

if you dont plan to upgrade next 2-3 years, quad core makes quite a sense even for gaming by my opinion.

 

[Roguestar]

Originally posted by: clovek1
3. its not true, that games use only 1 core now.
most new games use 2 cores allready (Crysis, World of Warcraft, .... almost all)
some games do allready use up to 4 cores: Unreal3 and all games based on this engine (will be many in the future), Supreme Commander and few others.

Link please, or BS.

 

[DSF]

Originally posted by: clovek1
1. according to my expirience Q6600 doesnt overclock that much in reality. terefore Q9300 would give about the same 3.0GHz or below with less heat.
2. agree, too expensive now. but i dont agree, that i7 will not be for games
3. I agree, that E8xxx will overclock better than Qxxxx. you can expect 2.88-3.00 GHz with Qxxx and about 3.2 GHz with Exxxx . I mean STABLE (Orthis running for at least a hour) and SAFE (CPU will survive few years and not few weeks) overclocing without rising the Vcore significantly and with relatively quiet CPU fan operation (about 1000 rpm).
4. agree, this voids warranty. but the VGA cooler can be stored and mounted back in case of a VGA failure. preinstalled quitet VGA cooler is very good idea. but there are few cards, that offer this. They are not allways that much quiet and their number is limited
5. i think SAMSUNG is quite a good option. its cheap, its stable (unlike MAXTOR), can be set up for FAST or QUIET operation. SAMSUNG disks are very good for silent PCs.
SAMSUNG disks produce the least heat of all normal HDD.
the speed of a HDD is used usually only during a Windows boot or when loading a new level of a game. othervise the performance has no impact on regular user. the noise however has impact all the time, when PC is up.

1. That's fine, but your experience doesn't match up with that of many others, who have safely pushed the Q6600 to 3.2-3.4 GHz, and occasionally beyond.

3. E8400 and E8500 chips easily go beyond 3.2 GHz running Orthos for hours on end. Running Orthos for an hour is not sufficient to confirm stability on any machine. Your comment about the CPU fan is irrelevant for two reasons. First, 1000 RPM is an arbitrary number. Not all fans operate at that speed at a given CPU temp. Second, no two fans sound identical at that speed anyway. Some fans are fairly quiet even beyond 1000 RPM.

 

[clovek1]

Originally posted by: Roguestar

Originally posted by: clovek1
3. its not true, that games use only 1 core now.
most new games use 2 cores allready (Crysis, World of Warcraft, .... almost all)
some games do allready use up to 4 cores: Unreal3 and all games based on this engine (will be many in the future), Supreme Commander and few others.

Link please, or BS.

You can check it yourself easily. Just run a game and loot at the CPU utilisation in Process Explorer or Task manager (you have to have mutlicore CPU in your PC)..
i have run Crysis and World of Warcraft on my Q6600 to show you, that the CPU utilisation is above 25% (1 core from 4 at 100% is 25% CPU utilisation from corresponding process):
Crysis screenshot
WoW screenshot

i havent the time to test more games ...
you can verify it yourself, if you dont believe

 

[DSF]

After clovek1's post, I found this link:
http://www.dailytechnobabble.c...-to-world-of-warcraft/

However, the CPU utilization in the screenies you posted is barely above 25%. Neither game would tax a dual core, especially when you consider the the E8400 would be running a higher clock speed than your Q6600.

 

[clovek1]

Originally posted by: Roguestar

Originally posted by: clovek1
3. its not true, that games use only 1 core now.
most new games use 2 cores allready (Crysis, World of Warcraft, .... almost all)
some games do allready use up to 4 cores: Unreal3 and all games based on this engine (will be many in the future), Supreme Commander and few others.

Link please, or BS.

here is a Unreal Tournament 3 screenshot showing nicely the utilisation of 4 Cores.
othe overall Q6600 utilisation is over 50%, this means more than 2 cores at 100%

Unreal Turnament 3 (4 cores > 50%)

 

[clovek1]

Originally posted by: DSF

1. That's fine, but your experience doesn't match up with that of many others, who have safely pushed the Q6600 to 3.2-3.4 GHz, and occasionally beyond.

3. E8400 and E8500 chips easily go beyond 3.2 GHz running Orthos for hours on end. Running Orthos for an hour is not sufficient to confirm stability on any machine. Your comment about the CPU fan is irrelevant for two reasons. First, 1000 RPM is an arbitrary number. Not all fans operate at that speed at a given CPU temp. Second, no two fans sound identical at that speed anyway. Some fans are fairly quiet even beyond 1000 RPM.

1. i have found many, that have the same Q6600 limitations like me. some can overclock even less. i would like to ask you, what do you consider "safely", when describing the Qxxxx overclocking.
i am running my Q6600 at 1.27 Vcore, CPU fan is at 900 RPM, i can run Orthos for hours without stability issues. CPU core temperature tops at about 60C
measured with HW Monitor
( i do have an old 975X motherboard, this was however able to overclock an E6600 to 3.0 GHz stable and 3.2 GHz unstable)

2. i believe, that E8xxx can go beyong 3.2 GHz, but not very much. 3.4 GHz over 3.2 GHz is just 6.25% (!). i am not trading CPU stability for a +6.25% performance ....
thats why do i stay at 2.88 GHz even i can run the CPU at 3.0 GHz with less stability, +4.15% performance gain isn't enough to accept stability issues.
human perception cant usually perceive less than +20% difference.

the noise issue is another topic.
every fan is less loud at 1000 rpm than at 2000 or 3000 rpm (if anybody dosnt believe, check yourself easily).
i do prefer low noise, but that is my subjective approach.
if you don't want to pay for less noise, don't buy silent fans ...
but most people, that i asked, would like to have a silent PC. thats why i noted it (it may be an aspect, that he didnt considered byt may affect the quality of his life