Bulldozer "delayed" until September 2011 (Rumor)

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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Did you guys see that trinity die . LOL I could almost see the screws I mean glue Look at the picks again LOL.

@ post 125 . NO serious gamer is going to give llano a second thought . Even X-fired not with a stars cores.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
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@ post 126.

And? Is that supposed to have a significant impact on the demand of Llano? Since serious gaming has nothing to do with Llano, it will have zero impact on it's target market. In fact, serious gamers don't have a significant impact in any market.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
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True, Llano isn't really an enthusiast gamer product. However Llano + 2 GPUs seems like it could be a solid OpenCL box. Not to mention I'll be less likely to flashback to the days when people arrived at Lan parties thinking their OEM i815 box would play games because "Intel chips are the bestest".
 
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piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
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I agree OpenCL and Direct Compute on Llano is what has developers excited. I imagine the initial roll out of Llano will be primarily mobile though. And makes the most sense since AMD still has 45nm products in production.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
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Sure, how about because they're rumours.

And, it makes zero sense to hamstring the future of the company to satisfy a few demanding enthusiasts. Curiously, the most vocal of those seem to be new users popping up on various forums around the net having fits and that they're going to head down to the store and buy a sandy bridge CPU. Well so what, go! Go fast! If you need the fastest gaming chip money can buy, why not do just that. It's not going to make AMD show their hand I can guarantee you that.

Anyway, as their tagline is "the future is Fusion", being a shareholder i'd be livid if they chose to sacrifice the future of the company and most lucrative markets to appease the demands of some self entitled enthusiasts, and a bunch of strategically placed FUD.

Sorry, I am just not buying anything AMD says about this launch. You are taking their word for it that it is capacity, not performance or other problems with the current stepping, that are now widely being reported.

It was only a couple days ago that AMD lied and said that it wasnt being delayed at all, and now they give us some rosey excuse about how they had to choose A over B. That is almost laughable, really.

"Make AMD show their hand." Really? AMD needs to show something and it needs to be soon. That, or the very people you mock for sitting on the fence waiting to build really are going to go out and go with Intel. At some point you have to show your hand, and if all you have is jack-high when all the chips are in, it's all over.

All the underdog sentiment is there for AMD. There are plenty of built-in fanbois dying for AMD to give them something to cheer about in internet forums just like this one. Now they need to deliver.
 
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ItsAlive

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2005
1,147
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In my opinion, AMD desperately needs to make friends in the OEM arena. They have their foot in the door with Bobcat, but need to keep the pressure on. I think this is why they decided to hold off on Bulldozer until OEM demand for llano is met. I believe they were stuck with 2 options.

1) Split capacity at GF between llano and bulldozer and disappoint both OEM's and enthusiasts with low supply.

or

2) Satisfy OEM demand, keep them happy, and postpone Bulldozer until they have enough supply for the masses. I believe this option is more sound and could also give them some time to respin allowing for a better performing Bulldozer.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
It's not that hard to understand.


-Brazos blew away AMD's expectations on demand and outrstipped supply.
-AMD has said about a billion times that the Fusion ecosystem is where the company is headed.
-Need to prioritize production.
-With the success of Brazos, only a fool wouldn't anticipate huge demand for Llano.
-They expect a 10% Brazos, 20% Bulldozer, 70% Llano product mix.
-Llano launches in 2 weeks.
-They currently have a respectable presence in desktop.
-The highest margin products are in server.
-Server Bulldozer schedule remains Q3.
-Priority to grow mobile and server market share.
-Zambezi is based on the same Orochi die as in Valencia.
-Llano much more appealing to OEM's.
-Focus on OpenCL.
-Common sense.

And yet none of this guessing on your part actually answers to root cause of why BD was delayed a week before launch, and AMD still doesn't know when it will ship.

So, what's the root cause? GF 32nm sucks? AMD can't forecast? AMD is spending the piles of cash for an emergency re-spin for the fun of it?

There's no good way for a fanboy to spin this. Something broke. It may have been the CPU, it may have been GF manufacturing, it may have been AMD's ability to manage their company or something else. Nonetheless you don't screw your customers like that.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
In my opinion, AMD desperately needs to make friends in the OEM arena. They have their foot in the door with Bobcat, but need to keep the pressure on. I think this is why they decided to hold off on Bulldozer until OEM demand for llano is met. I believe they were stuck with 2 options.

1) Split capacity at GF between llano and bulldozer and disappoint both OEM's and enthusiasts with low supply.

or

2) Satisfy OEM demand, keep them happy, and postpone Bulldozer until they have enough supply for the masses. I believe this option is more sound and could also give them some time to respin allowing for a better performing Bulldozer.

Except the OEM's got screwed. The OEM's have made the engineering investment and have been manufacturing products based upon the launch date provided by AMD. And then a week before launch AMD says "Sorry, you have to wait a quarter before you can sell that product you have been manufacturing. You didn't really need that cash flow to fund operations, did you?". And in mean time their suppliers are sending them raw materials and expecting to get paid. There's an entire supply chain affected by this.
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
True, Llano isn't really an enthusiast gamer product. However Llano + 2 GPUs seems like it could be a solid OpenCL box. Not to mention I'll be less likely to flashback to the days when people arrived at Lan parties thinking their OEM i815 box would play games because "Intel chips are the bestest".

Ya I want to see first how the APU with DDR3 matches up to discrete with its onboard memory. Well see how they play together . Intel SB is direct compute ready as it is or thats what I been lead to believe . AMD did buy ATI and intel beats them to market with SoC. Intels IB is still going to be IGP by name . Intel will stick with CPUs as a name You will never see an Intel cpu called an APU not ever. I think cpu covers the whole Soc . Intel may call theirs DCP . Deaccelerator Programm units . LOL. On Itanic EPIC isn't that something akin to what ATI uses in its GPUs . So intel must have a lot of work put in to programming this type of deacceleration computing units(DPUs) Man these tablets and such must be selling like hotcakes . AT just said the other day intels atom sells have been steller
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
In my opinion, AMD desperately needs to make friends in the OEM arena. They have their foot in the door with Bobcat, but need to keep the pressure on. I think this is why they decided to hold off on Bulldozer until OEM demand for llano is met. I believe they were stuck with 2 options.

1) Split capacity at GF between llano and bulldozer and disappoint both OEM's and enthusiasts with low supply.

or

2) Satisfy OEM demand, keep them happy, and postpone Bulldozer until they have enough supply for the masses. I believe this option is more sound and could also give them some time to respin allowing for a better performing Bulldozer.

What OCguy said . A week ago BD was going smash BABY sb into piecies . 1 week later LLANO is the APU that will save the day . Its really hard to keep up with the AMDers. This is as bad if not worse than the BS by AMDers before conroe was released . I would also like to know how the server chip can possiably still be on time. First these guys are saying LLano is getting all Fab time . ON a RAMP up . Than whats going threw the fabs now. It should be BD cores if server is ontime . Nothing adds up to logic
 
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ItsAlive

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2005
1,147
9
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What OCguy said . A week ago BD was going smash BABY sb into piecies . 1 week later LLANO is the APU that will save the day . Its really hard to keep up with the AMDers. This is as bad if not worse than the BS by AMDers before conroe was released . I would also like to know how the server chip can possiably still be on time. First these guys are saying LLano is getting all Fab time . ON a RAMP up . Than whats going threw the fabs now. It should be BD cores if server is ontime . Nothing adds up to logic

Firstly, I have never and will never post that bulldozer will smash anything, until its available for testing and proves otherwise. Secondly, I never said llano will save the day. Furthermore, calling someone with an opinion about AMD an AMDer is offensive to say the least. I am brand agnostic, I have owned both and I buy whatever is best based on price/performance. I also never stated that bulldozer wasnt delayed due to bad yeilds or low performance. I merely suggested that llano demands were higher than expected and I still believe that to be the case.

I dont pretend to be an expert in the field of manufacturing, but from the computex presentation the slide said PIBs delayed till late summer 2011. I saw no mention of OEM chips.
 

Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
136
citavia.blog.de
This article seems to be a reasonable clarification, but I'm unsure if it is reputable or not.

http://www.planet3dnow.de/cgi-bin/newspub/viewnews.cgi?id=1306941618
I've collaborated with the author a couple of times and he's one of the serious writers out there. Any risk in this bit of information is left to what AMD PR people say to the press and what happens behind the curtain. So the AMD guy stated that this is a strategic decision. But if this is a stepping issue with BD, it might simply fit their current needs of pushing Llano. It's somewhat similar to when Llano was seen on the roadmaps more around 4Q10/1Q11 but Ontario has been pulled in due to "customer demand".
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Firstly, I have never and will never post that bulldozer will smash anything, until its available for testing and proves otherwise. Secondly, I never said llano will save the day. Furthermore, calling someone with an opinion about AMD an AMDer is offensive to say the least. I am brand agnostic, I have owned both and I buy whatever is best based on price/performance. I also never stated that bulldozer wasnt delayed due to bad yeilds or low performance. I merely suggested that llano demands were higher than expected and I still believe that to be the case.

I dont pretend to be an expert in the field of manufacturing, but from the computex presentation the slide said PIBs delayed till late summer 2011. I saw no mention of OEM chips.

Hay I think your on to something here ANDs announcement for late summer release LIKEly means PIBs only . I think all of us here after seeing the light you just casted on the subject rings true. Ya the OEMs are likely getting the chips.

The part about being called an AMDer shouldn't offend anyone its better than fanboy or fanbois is it not . Reaching like you are it would not appear you are agnostic . UP until last week it was BD this BDer that. After the show its llano is so good with its APU that BD was put on hold suddenly . Why is a stars core with a small apu going to rattle the world?

The reason AMD didn't show any results for llano this week was made clear in AMds presentation . The man said its because llano is done we've moved on to trinity now than he ppulls an odd looking die from his pocket . OK llano is done go ahead and move on . But are ya tring to sell llano or not . Didn't want to show performance because intel would scrape IB(soc) and start over. It all makes perfect sense and the logic is impeccable.
 

ItsAlive

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2005
1,147
9
81
Maybe they dont need to SELL llano, because maybe all the chips are already sold.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Now thats believeable if GF is selling AMD only good dies . As IDC said its commom practice if yields are below20% . It wouldn't take long to sell out stock . But I don't believe thats why llano is the new this week war cry.
 

ItsAlive

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2005
1,147
9
81
Well, I would never consider purchasing llano for a desktop unless it was an htpc. I would definately consider llano + dual gpu in a laptop tho. In fact Im not even considering bulldozer unless it proves to be substantially higher in performance to SB. I might consider trinity if it offers near SB on the cpu and 6850 gpu performance and can be crossfired with my current 6850 hehehe.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
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Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD) Q2 2010 Earnings Conference Call July 15, 2010 5:00 pm ET

Dirk Meyer
Customer systems based on Ontario are planned to be available early next year. Llano our Fusion APU offering aimed at the higher end of the client market is also generating positive customer response. However, in reaction to Ontario’s market opportunities and a slower than anticipated progress of 32 nm yield curve, we are switching the timing of the Ontario and Llano production ramps.

Llano production shipments are still expected to occur in the first half of next year. In the second quarter this year we also taped out the first 32 nm product based on our new high performance Bulldozer CPU core. We plan to begin sampling our Bulldozer based server and desktop processors in the second half of this year and remain on track for 2011 launches. These new processors will deliver significant performance improvements to the AMD platform.

AMD always wanted Llano to be produced first and BD after and it seams GloFo’s 32nm process haven’t matured yet and perhaps they still have lower yields than what they were expecting.

Im pretty sure OEM’s Llano APU’s demand would have been significant much more than BD and so AMD concentrated on Llano first and BD later.

They have taped out BD for a year now so they had plenty of time to fix any performance related problems but I would bet that BD is much harder to produce than Llano not only because of the higher transistor count and if 32nm still have lower yields they would of make sure that Llano would be ready in Q2 first and BD later.

One more thing to consider, not even Intel release two new micro architecture design Chips at the same time in a new manufacturing process and they have 4-5 fab’s at the time, not one like AMD.
 

jimbo75

Senior member
Mar 29, 2011
223
0
0
If yields were below 20% then Seifert wouldn't have said that yields "meet our expectations". This is AMD not Nvidia.

I don't see why it's difficult to believe that Llano is getting the wafers. AMD probably told OEM's to be ready by Q1 but were forced to hold it off and pull in Brazos instead. With back to school coming next up Llano is by far and away the most sensible product to be shipping in preference.
 

purefun1965

Member
Dec 23, 2009
109
0
76
Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD) Q2 2010 Earnings Conference Call July 15, 2010 5:00 pm ET



AMD always wanted Llano to be produced first and BD after and it seams GloFo’s 32nm process haven’t matured yet and perhaps they still have lower yields than what they were expecting.

Im pretty sure OEM’s Llano APU’s demand would have been significant much more than BD and so AMD concentrated on Llano first and BD later.

They have taped out BD for a year now so they had plenty of time to fix any performance related problems but I would bet that BD is much harder to produce than Llano not only because of the higher transistor count and if 32nm still have lower yields they would of make sure that Llano would be ready in Q2 first and BD later.

One more thing to consider, not even Intel release two new micro architecture design Chips at the same time in a new manufacturing process and they have 4-5 fab’s at the time, not one like AMD.

amd is concentrating on its market share. Llano is desktop and notebook. bulldozer is server and hpc. Enthusiast is not a concern! Bulldozer does not need high clocks for its target market. desktop is an afterthought where bulldozer is concerned. anything else is filler.
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
126
Been an AMD'r since the 386DX40 BUT the Bulldozer debacle makes Intel's SandyBeach chipset problems look teeny in comparison. When I build next Big Blue gets a serious look. Tired of waiting. (sigh)
 

purefun1965

Member
Dec 23, 2009
109
0
76
Been an AMD'r since the 386DX40 BUT the Bulldozer debacle makes Intel's SandyBeach chipset problems look teeny in comparison. When I build next Big Blue gets a serious look. Tired of waiting. (sigh)

I understand enthusiast frustration with bulldozer. Like JF-AMD bulldozer IS a server chip amd knows where to put the money to make a profit. Bulldozer is not DESKTOP CHIP.:whiste:
 

purefun1965

Member
Dec 23, 2009
109
0
76
People get it through your heads. Bulldozer is on schedule for server. Thats what this chip is for! Llano is desktop and notebook! I have seen server benchmarks. Totally different than a bulldozer based desktop. AMD is on track with its target market. Enthusiast is small potatoes. OEM AND SERVER.
 

Joseph F

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2010
3,523
2
0
I always find this argument amusing. AMD's every bit as guilty as Intel of platform updates and incompatibility, they've just been minimizing mechanical incompatibility of late. Here's a nice comparison of sockets targeted towards consumers/enthusiasts since the two companies diverged at socket 7.

Code:
Intel      - AMD
Socket 8   -                - 1995
Slot 1     -                - 1997
           - Super Socket 7 - 1998
Socket 370 - Slot A         - 1999
Socket 423 - Socket A       - 2000
Socket 478 -                - 2000
           - Socket 754     - 2003
           - Socket 940     - 2003
LGA 775    - Socket 939     - 2004
           - Socket AM2     - 2006
           - Socket F       - 2006
           - Socket AM2+    - 2007
LGA 1366   -                - 2008
LGA 1156   - Socket AM3     - 2009
LGA 1155   - ?              - 2011

That list has a few flaws, but I do agree with you that AMD changed their sockets way too often during the K8/A64 era.

First, Socket F and Socket 940 should not be included in this list as they are server sockets. (Though you could argue that they should be included as they both had FX series enthusiast processors.)

Second, I believe that Socket AM2 and Socket AM2+ shouldn't be exclusively separate sockets as AFAIK the vast majority of Socket AM2 motherboards support Socket AM2+ processors.

But that is all history and today's problem is that Intel is using separate sockets for enthusiast and mainstream CPUs and they are changing the sockets with every generation of CPUs. Take Socket 775 for an example of how it ought to be; Intel used the same socket (with different chipsets, of course) from P4 to P-D to C2D to C2Q, and it had everything from the extreme edition CPUs to the lowly Celerons. Why can't Intel do this today? I'm sure that they can, but they won't because AMD is in the $#!773r and they want to take advantage of this.
 
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purefun1965

Member
Dec 23, 2009
109
0
76
That list has a few flaws, but I do agree with you that AMD changed their sockets way too often during the K8/A64 era.

First, Socket F and Socket 940 should not be included in this list as they are server sockets. (Though you could argue that they should be included as they both had FX series enthusiast processors.)

Second, I believe that Socket AM2 and Socket AM2+ shouldn't be exclusively separate sockets as AFAIK the vast majority of Socket AM2 motherboards support Socket AM2+ processors.

But that is all history and today's problem is that Intel is using separate sockets for enthusiast and mainstream CPUs and they are changing the sockets with every generation of CPUs. Take Socket 775 for an example of how it ought to be; Intel used the same socket (with different chipsets, of course) from P4 to P-D to C2D to C2Q, and it had everything from the extreme edition CPUs to the lowly Celerons. Why can't Intel do this today? I'm sure that they can, but they won't because AMD is in the $3!773r and they want to take advantage of this.

amd screwed the pooch with 939. lets be fair.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
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But that is all history and today's problem is that Intel is using separate sockets for enthusiast and mainstream CPUs and they are changing the sockets with every generation of CPUs. Take Socket 775 for an example of how it ought to be; Intel used the same socket (with different chipsets, of course) from P4 to P-D to C2D to C2Q, and it had everything from the extreme edition CPUs to the lowly Celerons. Why can't Intel do this today? I'm sure that they can, but they won't because AMD is in the $3!773r and they want to take advantage of this.

P4/PD 775 was not compatible with C2D in general.

Also, I don't know why this socket-compatibility is a big deal. I care that Intel maximizes performance, and I'm sure the new sockets let them do that. Also, who *really* wants to do a drop-in upgrade on an old platform? By the time any given high end CPU is obsolete and needs replacing, so is its platform.

Personally, I'm glad I moved from my P5K Deluxe to my P7P55 WS SuperComputer when I went from C2Q to i7 -- the new board had a lot of new features (2 way SLI, 3 way SLI, CrossFire, DDR3 support, etc.) that I'd have wanted anyway.
 
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