Burden of Proof - Does it ever lie with Atheists?

[randomrogue]

Well, of course... in hindsight, everyone's stupid. But I was speaking to people who lived before the 6th Centrury BCE. I don't what Jesus has to do with this, BTW.

If you were born, say... in 2000 BCE, would you have stood on a hill and proclaimed the Earth wasn't flat? I don't think so...

No. Absolutely not. I'm not going to let you misdirect this. It was not written then. The oldest parts of the bible, the Torah, were written around 600BC to 400BC. The part you quoted which deals with the water tables, Ecclesiastes, was written between 450BC and 180BC. Here's what it says:

All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.

Not only did you time everything wrong since this passage was written after scholars mathematically understood that the earth wasn't flat but it really doesn't tell us anything special.

This is one of the most misunderstood parts of ancient history. Anyone who ever set foot on a boat would have know that the Earth was not flat. Surely you were taught in grade school that anyone who saw objects on the horizon would realize that they were on a curve.

My point, it was written in 1000 BCE... 400 years before people even verified the shape of the Earth. Likely, no one would have even known that waters were taken back from which they came to keep the Oceans from overflowing. We now know this as the water cycle, though it wasn't called that. He was right, though... no matter the details he didn't know about. The water does return from which it came, and comes down again.


EDIT: I was checking your links too, so see if the Flat earth was indeed a myth. I see where you're going. My bad.

Shit now I see your edit. Either way you are repeating bible teachings that are flat wrong. For some reason they think people can't look up the dates things were written today but eventually people will be sitting in Church, Temple, etc and will hold up their smart phone and call bullshit on these teachings. Moses did not write these texts 1500 years ago. This should be obvious since he couldn't write about his own death.

 

[Retro Rob]

No. Absolutely not. I'm not going to let you misdirect this. It was not written then. The oldest parts of the bible, the Torah, were written around 600BC to 400BC.

Ah, I gotcah....

However, its just a consensus among scholars, they admit the dates are impossible to know.

I just dont want to argue about dates... It's clear that they don't even know as far as Ecclesiastes is concerned.

 

[randomrogue]

Ah, I gotcah....

However, its just a consensus among scholars, they admit the dates are impossible to know.

I just dont want to argue about dates... It's clear that they don't even know as far as Ecclesiastes is concerned.

How much of your secret ninja editing skills have I missed

I gave you a range of dates since you're right they don't have it down to an exact date. Either way it is not old enough.

I was taught as a kid that Moses wrote the Torah. This is not true. Yet if you go online today you'll see tons of articles with religious people trying to give arguments in favor of it. All of them boil down to the same thing: The bible says he wrote it. Circular logic.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/06/28/did-moses-write-genesis

 

[Mxylplyx]

Ah, I gotcah....

However, its just a consensus among scholars, they admit the dates are impossible to know.

I just dont want to argue about dates... It's clear that they don't even know as far as Ecclesiastes is concerned.

It would appear you have constructed your entire argument on dates.

 

[Retro Rob]

How much of your secret ninja editing skills have I missed

I gave you a range of dates since you're right they don't have it down to an exact date. Either way it is not old enough.

I was taught as a kid that Moses wrote the Torah. This is not true. Yet if you go online today you'll see tons of articles with religious people trying to give arguments in favor of it. All of them boil down to the same thing: The bible says he wrote it. Circular logic.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/06/28/did-moses-write-genesis

You have proven to be a formidable and knowledgable opponent... causing me to think. Thanks for being rational!

Where the dating issue falls apart is when secular dating meets Bible Chronology, IMO. Most people are going to side with scholars. Some stick to the counting backwards based on timelines the Bible gives (ie, the 69 weeks of years used to pinpoint the Baptism of Jesus).

The same method is used to ascertain when Genesis was written (about 1513 BC). So it isn't just blindly saying "the bible says so.." its the Geneological dating that does this.

 

[Retro Rob]

It would appear you have constructed your entire argument on dates.

True, but we'd end up arguing about who wrote what and when. For the sake of that, I'd yield to his information.

 

[randomrogue]

Watch that video I linked (and got from someone else) above. It deals with some of this dating which is interesting.

The bible is old. No doubt. However it's not THAT old.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yeah.. I just looked at the film and I liked it, to be honest - the information was good.

The film did seem to show the scientists as trying to satisfy their doubt and suspicion instead of trying to verify the dates and accounts.

I think your initial premise has a bearing on how you interpret and study information. For example, creationists try to find missing links in the fossil record, not come up with a better explanation, but to poke holes in the evolutionary theory and substantiate their claims. They are not objective.

I feel the scientists in the film did the same thing. In fact, the title "The Bible's buried secrets" is a dead giveaway which lends to the point that something is being hidden from you before you even watch the film. Juicy gossip and conspiracy theories are appealing!! :awe: The film makers knew what they were doing with that title.

I won't be recommending it.. NOT because its bad information, but because I saw very little objectivity. Of course, any film recommended by either a believer or non-believer is only intended to mirror their side of the issue, so I came into the film not expecting any objectivity.

The overall information was good, nonetheless!!