Bush and Global Warming.

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Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
There are localized environmental issues that are caused by humans.

There might be large global environmental issues caused by humans.

There are large global environmental issues that are not caused by humans.

The trick is being able to tell the difference.


Ahh, trusting in scientist. These are the same scientists who have a vested interest in seeing some catastrophe around every corner that require ever larger monetary grants so as to finance their livelihoods.

Have you ever felt the need to fund an in-depth study after one of these scientist got on his soap box and said don't worry everything is peachy?

Tell me please, what is the good science from the bad.

There has never been a generation on earth that didn't think it was going to be the last.


 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: cwjerome
But in the late 70s it was global cooling. But in the late 60s it was overpopulation.

It's all politics....

Push a crisis and move your agenda.
So, because somebody was wrong crying wolf before, there's never a wolf? What a terribly comfortable way of looking at the world. The consensus among scientists across the planet is that we are negatively affecting our environment.

I was under the impression that the debate is how much humans alter the environment.
we != humans?



This on CNN today
The report mainly blames the melt on gases from fossil fuels burned in cars, factories and power plants.
Oops!

I'll note with tragic irony that this is one of those topics where people frequently brush aside the scientists. "What do they know?", and on the other hand "If we screw the environment up, our scientists can fix it." How can they be incompetent and so powerful at the same time?

If a group of experts' thinking is greatly in line, chances are the lay person would benefit from listening to them.

I'm saying that I was under the assumption that there was not a scientific consensus that said that humans are solely reponsible for global warming or doing enough to cause it...or that humans can somehow reverse global warming right now.

I remember reading some articles about other scientists regarding these issues. Maybe times have changed or I'm thinking about something else.
 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I'm saying that I was under the assumption that there was not a scientific consensus that said that humans are solely reponsible for global warming or doing enough to cause it...or that humans can somehow reverse global warming right now.

I remember reading some articles about other scientists regarding these issues. Maybe times have changed or I'm thinking about something else.

Perhaps it was the Leipzig Declaration.

http://www.sepp.org/leipzig.html

As independent scientists concerned with atmospheric and climate problems, we -- along with many of our fellow citizens -? are apprehensive about emission targets and timetables adopted at the Climate Conference held in Kyoto, Japan, in December 1997
...
More to the point, we consider the scientific basis of the 1992 Global Climate Treaty to be flawed and its goal to be unrealistic. The policies to implement the Treaty are, as of now, based solely on unproven scientific theories, imperfect computer models -- and the unsupported assumption that catastrophic global warming follows from an increase in greenhouse gases, requiring immediate action. We do not agree. We believe that the dire predictions of a future warming have not been validated by the historic climate record, which appears to be dominated by natural fluctuations, showing both warming and cooling. These predictions are based on nothing more than theoretical models and cannot be relied on to construct far-reaching policies.

Here is the list of signatories: http://www.sepp.org/LDsigs.html

Scientists from MIT, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, University of Virginia, Cornell, Texas A&M, Arizona State, University of Illinois, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Florida State University, etc., seem to still have some doubts. I would presume they can not all be dismissed as ignorant or right-wing whackos.

 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
global warming is serious and real, Bush better get serious about it as well. and Bush is not for outsourcing, if companies wish to do it, thats their business
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,217
5,796
126
We know that Carbon Dioxide fluctuations cause changes in Climate. We also know that we are putting more Carbon Dioxide in the Atmosphere than what normaly is made Naturally. You do the Math.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Squisher
There are localized environmental issues that are caused by humans.

There might be large global environmental issues caused by humans.

There are large global environmental issues that are not caused by humans.

The trick is being able to tell the difference.


Ahh, trusting in scientist. These are the same scientists who have a vested interest in seeing some catastrophe around every corner that require ever larger monetary grants so as to finance their livelihoods.

Have you ever felt the need to fund an in-depth study after one of these scientist got on his soap box and said don't worry everything is peachy?

Tell me please, what is the good science from the bad.

There has never been a generation on earth that didn't think it was going to be the last.
Are you implying that we should ignore them? Scientists gave us sail, flight, the combustion engine, atomic power, space flight, the computer you're on now. You know, sometimes they just happen to get it right. We're not talking about time travel here - most scientists studying climate change agree that humans are contributing to it.
I'm saying that I was under the assumption that there was not a scientific consensus that said that humans are solely reponsible for global warming or doing enough to cause it...or that humans can somehow reverse global warming right now.
As long as you've got people who don't want there to be a problem, you'll not have a consensus. There are cyclical environmental patterns. They will happen regardless of human intervention. They are what people, who don't want to change, harp back to. But nothing is so simple: humans are influencing the environment. They can't "turn back" change, but they can definitely stop affecting it as much, and let nature take its course a little more comfortably.
I remember reading some articles about other scientists regarding these issues.
Of course they've changed, and they always will. New data comes in, new models are created, and predictions are tweaked.
Scientists from MIT, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, University of Virginia, Cornell, Texas A&M, Arizona State, University of Illinois, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Florida State University, etc., seem to still have some doubts. I would presume they can not all be dismissed as ignorant or right-wing whackos.
And we can find a list with professors from the same institutes who disagree with them. Nobody said it's clear cut. The issue is far too complex. Discerning the natural, unavoidable changes, with those that are unnatural and influenced directly by us is difficult to impossible, but as Rei so simply put it "burning 1 trillion gallons of anything is sure to have an effect on the environment." We've only got one environment, and similar to how you can't abuse your body for 50 years and expect to live as long as somebody who never did, it's really playing with fire dismissing the issue as nonchalantly as many do.
 

ciwell

Member
Mar 24, 2004
188
0
0
http://www.wired.com/news/tech...0.html?tw=wn_tophead_2


I just read the article here and am very worried about the future state of our global environment. Now, I am not about partisanship and really do not want to debate politics. What concerns me is the apparent lack of concern in government about this. I do not know for certain whether there is any real concern within the government(s) or not, but it does not show outwardly or is overshadowed by "other problems" that are apparently more "important" to them. For me, there are two primary things we, as humans, should focus on: reversing environmental destruction and finding a renewable (cleaner) energy source. Now, I am not sure if the latter is possible yet, but the former certainly is. Unfortunately what seems to happen in political circles is that environmentalism gets slapped with the label of left-wingers or it is used as a tool to push other agendas without any "real" interest in it what-so-ever.

So, that leaves me with the question: what can we do? How can we get past all this political BS and work towards actually doing something beneficial for the future of our marble in space? Yeah, there are societies, departments, whatever...but again those get smacked with labels and not taken seriously by everyone. Maybe I am blowing smoke over a so-called idealistic goal, but if so, so be it. I still think that something needs to get done.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: earthman
Bush talks to God and God says there's nothing to worry about.
It's because End Times are nigh. There's no need to worry about the environment when the Rapture is coming and all good souls will go to heaven and float around on clouds plucking at harps.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: Squisher
There are localized environmental issues that are caused by humans.

There might be large global environmental issues caused by humans.

There are large global environmental issues that are not caused by humans.

The trick is being able to tell the difference.


Ahh, trusting in scientist. These are the same scientists who have a vested interest in seeing some catastrophe around every corner that require ever larger monetary grants so as to finance their livelihoods.

Have you ever felt the need to fund an in-depth study after one of these scientist got on his soap box and said don't worry everything is peachy?

Tell me please, what is the good science from the bad.

There has never been a generation on earth that didn't think it was going to be the last.


Damn greedy scientists! Add 'em to the Axis of Evil I say!

It's a good thing corporations are more interested in our well being than making money.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
New Science on Global Warming
A summary of recent findings on the changing global climate.
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/fgwscience.asp
In recent years, scientists have added considerably to the large body of evidence that shows human activity is changing the global climate, raising temperatures and affecting ecosystems around the world. Here we summarize the most significant findings of the last few years.


Global Warming Puts the Arctic on Thin Ice
Answers to questions about the Arctic's shrinking ice cap and its global significance.
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/qthinice.asp


Bush's Stealth Attacks
Industry "experts" give the environment an ugly makeover
http://www.nrdc.org/onearth/04sum/attacks.asp
DRILLING FOR DOLLARS

In January, members of the oil industry scheduled a secret meeting with Bureau of Land Management (BLM) officials in New Mexico to plan drilling operations in the protected desert region of Otero Mesa. Fortunately, their shenanigans were uncovered just in time by the environmental watchdog group Earthjustice. Earthjustice and others filed a temporary restraining order against the agency, charging that the meeting would violate FACA's prohibition against precisely such secret gatherings. The 1.2-million-acre Chihuahuan Desert of Otero Mesa is home to endangered wildlife, including the aplomado falcon, and is one of the most diverse desert ecosystems on earth. In 1997, the Harvey E. Yates Co. discovered a massive natural gas reservoir in the region. Industry advisers to the BLM included representatives from the Yates family oil and gas empire, which owns one-quarter of all oil and gas leases in the area. Over the past four years, Yates family members and their companies have contributed more than $250,000 to President Bush and the Republican Party.


CANNED EXPERTS

The Federal Advisory Commitee Act (FACA) mandates that a group charged with making recommendations on an issue be a balanced assemblage of experts intimately familiar with the topic. So it's hard to see how the FDA's Food Advisory Committee was qualified to dish advice on the safety of eating mercury-laden fish. Last December, when the 20-person committee met to review recommendations from the FDA and EPA, only one toxicologist was among them. That lone expert, Dr. Vasken Aposhian of the University of Arizona, cited new evidence that the potential risks of mercury in fish -- at, for example, levels often found in albacore tuna -- are greater to children and women of childbearing age than was thought. For some groups, such as people with autism, small amounts of mercury-tainted fish can cause irreversible neurological damage. Under pressure from the tuna industry, however, the FDA and EPA gave their approval to consuming one can of albacore tuna per week, ignoring even their own findings to the contrary. "What's more important?" Aposhian asks. "The health of children or the American albacore industry?"


KEEPING THE LEAD IN

In the summer of 2002, the Centers for Disease Control's Advisory Committee on Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention was expected to recommend that the legal definition of lead poisoning be lowered by half. Abundant scientific research has shown decreases in IQ with very small increases in blood-lead levels. The change was never made. That fall, Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson removed a highly regarded scientist from the panel and rejected the appointment of two others. Instead he stacked the committee with his own "experts," some of whom have no background on the issue but are friendlier toward the lead industry. One such expert believes that there is no lead poisoning epidemic -- a view at odds with the scientific consensus. Another appointee, William Banner, an Oklahoma pediatrician, has testified on behalf of a paint manufacturer that the amount of lead that must be present in a child's blood to incur harm is 10 times the federally recommended limit. Not surprisingly, the revamped panel refused to revise downward the level at which children are deemed lead-poisoned, leaving millions of American kids to suffer the consequences of inaction.


POISONED PROCEEDINGS

A group of pesticide manufacturers calling itself an endangered species task force met last winter with EPA officials to push the agency to weaken pesticide safeguards under the Endangered Species Act. Environmental groups filed a lawsuit claiming that the EPA violated FACA by holding closed meetings with the task force, which includes Dow AgroSciences, DuPont Ag Products, Monsanto, and 11 other major chemical and pesticide manufacturers. The group, formed in 1994 to collect data on the use of pesticides and other chemicals, was never intended to serve in an advisory role to the agency, as it now appears to be doing in its meetings with the EPA. The upshot: In January, the EPA announced its intent to establish new Endangered Species Act rules that, among other things, eliminate the role of fish and wildlife experts in assessing the impact of pesticides on endangered species.


POLLUTED POLITICS

The EPA created a working group within the Clean Air Act Advisory Committee to evaluate the most effective way to reduce mercury emissions from power plants. In October 2002, the group presented three alternative models for the agency's consideration to Jeffrey Holmstead, assistant administrator for air and radiation. Some of the models proposed stringent -- and potentially costly -- control measures. But the agency didn't evaluate these recommendations. Instead the process was shelved entirely; the group's next meeting was postponed indefinitely, and the group itself was eventually disbanded. John Paul, supervisor of Ohio's Regional Air Pollution Control Agency and cochair of the working group, learned the news by chance -- in an article in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Paul believes the EPA simply allowed the panel to sit idle until its two-year charter expired, so that the agency would not have to examine recommendations it did not want to hear. Last December, the EPA proposed rules for reducing emissions from power plants that reflect two sets of recommendations from industry lobbyists, neither of which were submitted as a part of the formal working group process.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: VIAN
I love this. I read in the Star Ledger today:

Bush doesn't want to adopt a Reduced Emissions Policy because he doesn't want Americans to lose a single job.

Bush encourages outsourcing.

Cool, I'm Diamond.

Canadia is just glad that someone is doing something about their winter!

 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Luck JF
There is no global warming. It's just a natural cycle.

How do you know?

How about because of drillings in the bottom of the ocean floor that show repeated cycles of heating and cooling over thousands of years!

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Luck JF
There is no global warming. It's just a natural cycle.
How do you know?
How about because of drillings in the bottom of the ocean floor that show repeated cycles of heating and cooling over thousands of years!
The thing about what's going on now, though, is humans have accelerated that cycle.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Luck JF
There is no global warming. It's just a natural cycle.
How do you know?
How about because of drillings in the bottom of the ocean floor that show repeated cycles of heating and cooling over thousands of years!
The thing about what's going on now, though, is humans have accelerated that cycle.


We can't really know that as humans weren't there to record the previous cycles and the samples vary in time for each period. The solar system is cycling away from the sun and the timing is a constant variable that we simply can't pin down.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Yeah...deforestation, CO2 emissions, holes in the ozone layer, etc. Those are all normal parts of the cycle.
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Luck JF
There is no global warming. It's just a natural cycle.
How do you know?
How about because of drillings in the bottom of the ocean floor that show repeated cycles of heating and cooling over thousands of years!
The thing about what's going on now, though, is humans have accelerated that cycle.


We can't really know that as humans weren't there to record the previous cycles and the samples vary in time for each period. The solar system is cycling away from the sun and the timing is a constant variable that we simply can't pin down.

Wow your expertise on the subject really shows. I forgot, could you remind me which sun it is our solar system is cycling away from and why that sun would affect us (I mean there is a sun in our solar system thats a bit closer than any sun our solar system could be moving away from). Oh yeah and could you show me the link to the drillings in the ocean floor and how they determine the climete changes from that ocean floor. Cause the water temperature at the ocean floor (always 4°C) is not affected by water temperatures at the surface unless you choose a very shallow ocean off course
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
0
0
There is no global warming. It's just a natural cycle.
How about because of drillings in the bottom of the ocean floor that show repeated cycles of heating and cooling over thousands of years!

it is also natural that mass extinctions occur regularly wiping out 95% of all species on earth. with that attitude, do you think you'll make it in the 5%?
 
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