Bush ends executive ban on drilling...

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Stiganator
One stipulation I have is that when an oil spill happens, the oil companies are responsible for immediately cleaning it up. As far I know, they still haven't paid for the Exxon-Valdeez incident and that was over 10 years ago. They should have to pay immediately and not some bare bottom price, but the actual price and recompense for industries affected by their spill. You want to play the game, be ready for the consequences.

They should be responsible for paying for 100% of the clean up and be given a strict timeline to complete the cleanup. They should have no say on what is necessary to clean it up and leave that to those that truly care and will do a good job. They should have to pay some major penalties and fines. They should not be permitted to raise prices on any of their products or services should such an incident occur as an effort to prevent the costs of their mistake from hitting us where it counts.

These companies are so ridiculously rich. The pressure when it comes to the loss in dollars needs to be massive enough for them to really care about preserving quality. There is no better way to ensure quality assurance than to threaten to hit them where it hurts the most.

They are, they do, and they can't.

Exxon Valdez was an oil tanker. Less domestic production equals more oil tankers off the coast of Florida.

So if they refuse to pay (or have delayed to pay) for cleanup of the tankers, why would they pay (or not delay) cleaning up any spills that occur on the platforms (which they should if they are allowed to drill, IMO).

Its simple really. Any spill from a platform will be relatively minor. It is far cheaper to clean it up immediately than it is not to. It is more profitable for them to clean it up before it impacts the environment.

As far as a drilling rig goes, except for catastrophic failure that they don't have time to react to, its just not very feasible for major spills to get beyond the buoys. Even if they have to evacuate the entire rig they will close the rams sealing the well.

Oil and gas produced will be transported via pipelines which is far more efficient and safer than tankers.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Darwin333
Its simple really. Any spill from a platform will be relatively minor. It is far cheaper to clean it up immediately than it is not to. It is more profitable for them to clean it up before it impacts the environment.

As far as a drilling rig goes, except for catastrophic failure that they don't have time to react to, its just not very feasible for major spills to get beyond the buoys. Even if they have to evacuate the entire rig they will close the rams sealing the well.

Oil and gas produced will be transported via pipelines which is far more efficient and safer than tankers.

That wasn't my point really. My point was if they don't pay for the old spills, who says that they pay for the new ones (if any)? All they do is go to court and delay...delay...delay. I'm all for oil drilling but the oil companies need to be fully responsible if they screw the pooch....even if it's by the rule of law (or courts).

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Darwin333
Its simple really. Any spill from a platform will be relatively minor. It is far cheaper to clean it up immediately than it is not to. It is more profitable for them to clean it up before it impacts the environment.

As far as a drilling rig goes, except for catastrophic failure that they don't have time to react to, its just not very feasible for major spills to get beyond the buoys. Even if they have to evacuate the entire rig they will close the rams sealing the well.

Oil and gas produced will be transported via pipelines which is far more efficient and safer than tankers.

That wasn't my point really. My point was if they don't pay for the old spills, who says that they pay for the new ones (if any)? All they do is go to court and delay...delay...delay. I'm all for oil drilling but the oil companies need to be fully responsible if they screw the pooch....even if it's by the rule of law (or courts).

Experience from working on and traveling the waters of offshore drilling for the last 8 years says so. We have a crapton of rigs here. I actually travel between a few hundred of them every few weeks. The ships coming into port cause more pollution than the rigs do.

I assume the money being held up in court, from the E.V., you are speaking of is due to the latest SC decision? Those where just punitive damages. They have already paid out over 3.4 BILLION in clean up, fines, etc...

 

[ericlp]

Damn you fools.... Haven't you read the report from the department of energy or are you TOO STUPID? I guess your too stupid. Oh well, your loss. The whole point is it was retarded. Anyone for this was stuck in "NO GO". Bush is an idiot for thinking he could pass this. Anyone thinking that that all the money spent on lawyers and getting these laws passed for years and to think Bush could just trample on our rights when ever he opens his retarded fucking hole has another thing coming. If you couldn't see this was a NO GO from the get go your just as dumb as bush was and belong with the 5% that can't see the forest through the trees.

It really amuses me greatly to see the tards try to spin this.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Idiots!

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: JD50
So what made the price of oil drop?

get a clue, what makes the stock market drop?


Tomorrow oil will be higher, then next week it will drop. WHY?


Another retarded post.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: ericlp
Damn you fools.... Haven't you read the report from the department of energy or are you TOO STUPID? I guess your too stupid. Oh well, your loss. The whole point is it was retarded. Anyone for this was stuck in "NO GO". Bush is an idiot for thinking he could pass this. Anyone thinking that that all the money spent on lawyers and getting these laws passed for years and to think Bush could just trample on our rights when ever he opens his retarded fucking hole has another thing coming. If you couldn't see this was a NO GO from the get go your just as dumb as bush was and belong with the 5% that can't see the forest through the trees.

It really amuses me greatly to see the tards try to spin this.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Idiots!

You sound very angry.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: JD50
So what made the price of oil drop?

get a clue, what makes the stock market drop?


Tomorrow oil will be higher, then next week it will drop. WHY?


Another retarded post.

I was asking a simple question.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: ericlp
Damn you fools.... Haven't you read the report from the department of energy or are you TOO STUPID? I guess your too stupid. Oh well, your loss. The whole point is it was retarded. Anyone for this was stuck in "NO GO". Bush is an idiot for thinking he could pass this. Anyone thinking that that all the money spent on lawyers and getting these laws passed for years and to think Bush could just trample on our rights when ever he opens his retarded fucking hole has another thing coming. If you couldn't see this was a NO GO from the get go your just as dumb as bush was and belong with the 5% that can't see the forest through the trees.

It really amuses me greatly to see the tards try to spin this.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Idiots!

You sound very angry.

Indeed he should seek help.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: ericlp
Damn you fools.... Haven't you read the report from the department of energy or are you TOO STUPID? I guess your too stupid. Oh well, your loss. The whole point is it was retarded. Anyone for this was stuck in "NO GO". Bush is an idiot for thinking he could pass this. Anyone thinking that that all the money spent on lawyers and getting these laws passed for years and to think Bush could just trample on our rights when ever he opens his retarded fucking hole has another thing coming. If you couldn't see this was a NO GO from the get go your just as dumb as bush was and belong with the 5% that can't see the forest through the trees.

It really amuses me greatly to see the tards try to spin this.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Idiots!

You sound very angry.

Indeed he should seek help.

He sounded more drunk than angry?!

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: JD50
So what made the price of oil drop?

The fundamentals, as I've pointed out in this thread several times. Oil inventories came in at a 6 million barrel upside suprise and gasoline came in at 2.5 million barrels to the upside. Useage is down to a 5 year low with 3.5% less useage than last year (and has been less each month of this year than the same month last year, first time since 1991). The dollar has somewhat flatlined but still teetering either way.

Oil was already starting down on the above information about a week (or so) before. Iran tested the missles and it started back up, but once the missles firing stopped and there was talk of an embassy/negotiations with Iran, it started falling again. The talk of negotiations with Iran had far more effect on oil prices than the symbolic cancelling of a executive order on offshore drilling, that did nothing.

Perhaps the speculators realize that congress will not go along with what Bush wants to do. Even if you guys do drill offshore, it will take years for anything to come online. I heard +/- 5 years. I'm pretty sure something like that isn't really going to affect the oil market today.

Does Iran actually provide oil to the US despite the diplomatic situation?

A war in there would be a nightmare (for the entire world). I really hope it doesn't take another disaster for you guys to wake up and lobby to have your foreign policy changed.

Speculators aren't concerned with the oil market today.

Do you honestly believe that? Wow...

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Xavier434
This might be some what of a side step to what you all are discussing, but I will just quickly toss in my feelings here. All I want to ensure is that the beaches and wildlife in my home town on Western Florida do not get effected what so ever by offshore drilling. The idea of them getting damaged is awful. It feels like the government is just tearing through your home and all of your fond memories just to drop gas prices. I know a lot of people here may not understand that and I do realize the counter arguments, but I do hope that at least some of you step back and really try to come to at least a partial understanding about how I and many others feel about this. It's my home.

Why do you think that modern oil exploration/production will destroy your beaches any more than ships, tankers or Mother Nature?

You wanna see messed up beaches just think about what its going to look like if one of those supertankers passing nearby has a serious problem.

That's a separate problem which I dislike just as much. There will still be tankers roaming our seas near out beeches even if we start drilling more domestically.

As another poster said already, they will try to get out of paying for as much as they possibly can. History has shown that to be true and I do not find that acceptable. If they are going to end up drilling then they should be forced under law to have strict time tables when it comes to clean up. Quality assurance should also be very strict. There is absolutely no reason why it should not be that way if we are going to drill. If they do not want to spend the money on that sort of thing then they can prevent it by making absolutely sure that all potential problems are prevented.

That's the real issue here. Everything seems fine and dandy when it works as intended. It is when "unexpected" or "uncontrollable" things happen that we run into issues. Then of course there will be the finger pointing which takes fucking forever in the courts. Meanwhile the damage is being done. I want to skip all of that. I want the law and the papers to be taken care of beforehand so that we do not run into those problems. I want them to have a Plan B, C, and D should the shit hit the fan. Lastly, I want zero outsourcing. No blaming the outsourced company for their problems.

Why is that so much to ask? The only reason I can think of is simply that people do not care. They do not want to go through the trouble of quality assurance and problem prevention. They also do not want to set themselves up to be caught in a position where they have to spend a lot of money to fix something should a problem occur.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: JD50
So what made the price of oil drop?

Maybe it was one of those 'Don't buy gas on xx/xx/xxxx' campaigns I used to get in chain Emails? After all, those have the same effect on oil prices as Bush lifting the executive ban.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: ericlp
Damn you fools.... Haven't you read the report from the department of energy or are you TOO STUPID? I guess your too stupid. Oh well, your loss. The whole point is it was retarded. Anyone for this was stuck in "NO GO". Bush is an idiot for thinking he could pass this. Anyone thinking that that all the money spent on lawyers and getting these laws passed for years and to think Bush could just trample on our rights when ever he opens his retarded fucking hole has another thing coming. If you couldn't see this was a NO GO from the get go your just as dumb as bush was and belong with the 5% that can't see the forest through the trees.

It really amuses me greatly to see the tards try to spin this.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Idiots!

You sound very angry.

Indeed he should seek help.

hahaha well, I do admit I had a few drinks, and maybe I was a bit harsh (sorry about that), but really...

Tho, you guys should read what the energy department said ... After that, get back to us.

A mute issue weather we did start drilling. I just think it was more PR for bush and a waste of time for the nation. And yeah, I'm a little pissed off on all the money and waste that comes from the guy.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Darwin333
-snip-

That wasn't my point really. My point was if they don't pay for the old spills, who says that they pay for the new ones (if any)? All they do is go to court and delay...delay...delay. I'm all for oil drilling but the oil companies need to be fully responsible if they screw the pooch....even if it's by the rule of law (or courts).

Sounds like you're referring to the Exxon Valdez.

I'm pretty sure if you check you'll find that clean up was paid for.

It's damages that are in dispute, not clean up.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: ericlp
-snip-

but really...

Tho, you guys should read what the energy department said ... After that, get back to us.

A mute issue weather we did start drilling. I just think it was more PR for bush and a waste of time for the nation. And yeah, I'm a little pissed off on all the money and waste that comes from the guy.

And maybe you should do a little more reading yourself.

I posted not long ago infomation on how oil pricing and speculation etc. works, and how price sensitive oil is to demand. A little swing in either demand or supply results in big price changes.

As the article explains, projected future demand/supply is estimated/calculated and impacts price NOW. Factor in that along with the price sensitivity and the impact resulting from from opening up drilling will likely have a beneficial influence on price now. (Note: Of course must factor in projected increase in demand from Asia/China. However, the aggregate global increases in production will still always counter the increased price pressure from forecasted increased global demand. I.e., worst case is that increased forecast supply will negate increased demand and prevent prices from rapidly rising, instead of just droping current prices. Eother way, it's a benefit.)

BTW: I find it odd that some of you who refuse to believe anything said by this goverment under GWB wanna rely on the DOE now.

Fern

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Darwin333
-snip-

That wasn't my point really. My point was if they don't pay for the old spills, who says that they pay for the new ones (if any)? All they do is go to court and delay...delay...delay. I'm all for oil drilling but the oil companies need to be fully responsible if they screw the pooch....even if it's by the rule of law (or courts).

Sounds like you're referring to the Exxon Valdez.

I'm pretty sure if you check you'll find that clean up was paid for.

It's damages that are in dispute, not clean up.

Fern

Thanks. I thought it was not paid for on the cleanup side and that taxpayers had paid for the bill. My mistake....

 

[NeoV]

"the Energy Information Administration estimates that if the go-ahead were given right now for such drilling, it would be 2030 before there would be enough oil flowing to have a "significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices."

Full story here: http://www.factcheck.org/elect..._tank_of_nonsense.html

How about an end to all the ridiculous, Sean Hannity inspried "I talked to my friend, an oil insider, who said this oil could be at the pump in 3 years, tops".

perhaps we can't be completely off of foreign oil in 10 years, as Gore has challenged us, but if we aren't by 2030 - shame on us all.

 

[Genx87]

What is their estimate if we sit on our ass until 2030?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Genx87
What is their estimate if we sit on our ass until 2030?

We will not be sitting on our ass though. We will be working towards alternatives. Consider the past 3 years of development when it comes to alternative fuels and energy. A lot of work has been done. We are accomplishing a lot. Think about where we might be when it comes to this science and technology 10 years from now let alone 20?

Still, I honestly do not completely oppose offshore drilling. I just have some really high standards when it comes to quality assurance and turn around times should problems occur. Unfortunately for all of us, big oil most likely will not be willing to put their asses on the line in the way that I desire even though all that it really comes down to is them taking full responsibility and putting in 110%. God forbid...

 

[Genx87]

Ahh yes those magical alternatives that are going to show up when?

Like I have said from day one. We need a dual approach to this problem. 30 years ago we were supposed to be out of Gasoline and we imported about 20-30% of our oil. We locked up our own reserves and look where we are today. In 20-30 years when we are still weaning ourselves off oil will we look back at this time and go "WTF were we thinking"?

I am sure back in the 1970's people thought the same way, that drilling would have a neglible effect on us. This isnt the 1970's. We have two massive countries who are seeing a large increase in consumption of oil. Sitting on our ass when demand is already catching up to supply means it will be that much harder on us in 10-20 years.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Ahh yes those magical alternatives that are going to show up when?

Like I have said from day one. We need a dual approach to this problem. 30 years ago we were supposed to be out of Gasoline and we imported about 20-30% of our oil. We locked up our own reserves and look where we are today. In 20-30 years when we are still weaning ourselves off oil will we look back at this time and go "WTF were we thinking"?

I am sure back in the 1970's people thought the same way, that drilling would have a neglible effect on us. This isnt the 1970's. We have two massive countries who are seeing a large increase in consumption of oil. Sitting on our ass when demand is already catching up to supply means it will be that much harder on us in 10-20 years.

Discredit the future sciences and technology all you wish. They will come. Obviously the question is when.

I am not opposed to having back up plans either though and if drilling our domestic oil is a good back up plan then so be it. I just see no reason why we shouldn't be extremely strict when it comes to quality. The vast majority of costs when it comes to that quality will come from big oil who makes billions.

You mention the 1970's when people made decisions that we are regretting today. I am thinking the same way. I do not want to jump the gun when it comes to what seems like an immediate solution only to regret it 20-30 years later when it comes to things like my home town's beaches or nuclear waste. I believe we are more than capable of exercising our power to use these resources with our fine state of the art technology, and do it in such a way which ensure quality and truly minimizes risks and turn around times when the mistakes happen (They always happen to some degree. Some time more so than other times). The question is whether or not we will do it the right way or if we are going to do it the fast and cheap way?

Politicians like McCain are in favor of the fast and cheap way because he wants to gain popularity and power. Americans want results and they want them now because they do not think things through. Fuck that.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Xavier434
This might be some what of a side step to what you all are discussing, but I will just quickly toss in my feelings here. All I want to ensure is that the beaches and wildlife in my home town on Western Florida do not get effected what so ever by offshore drilling. The idea of them getting damaged is awful. It feels like the government is just tearing through your home and all of your fond memories just to drop gas prices. I know a lot of people here may not understand that and I do realize the counter arguments, but I do hope that at least some of you step back and really try to come to at least a partial understanding about how I and many others feel about this. It's my home.

Why do you think that modern oil exploration/production will destroy your beaches any more than ships, tankers or Mother Nature?

You wanna see messed up beaches just think about what its going to look like if one of those supertankers passing nearby has a serious problem.

That's a separate problem which I dislike just as much. There will still be tankers roaming our seas near out beeches even if we start drilling more domestically.

You missed my point entirely. It is MUCH cheaper to transport oil via pipelines. We have quite an extensive network of pipelines in this country. Any oil/gas produced off the coast of Florida will be transported via pipeline which will REDUCE the number of tankers near your coast.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As another poster said already, they will try to get out of paying for as much as they possibly can. History has shown that to be true and I do not find that acceptable. If they are going to end up drilling then they should be forced under law to have strict time tables when it comes to clean up. Quality assurance should also be very strict. There is absolutely no reason why it should not be that way if we are going to drill. If they do not want to spend the money on that sort of thing then they can prevent it by making absolutely sure that all potential problems are prevented.

I agree with you and THEY DO THAT NOW. Punitive damages have absolutely nothing to do with what you just mentioned.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
That's the real issue here. Everything seems fine and dandy when it works as intended. It is when "unexpected" or "uncontrollable" things happen that we run into issues. Then of course there will be the finger pointing which takes fucking forever in the courts. Meanwhile the damage is being done. I want to skip all of that. I want the law and the papers to be taken care of beforehand so that we do not run into those problems. I want them to have a Plan B, C, and D should the shit hit the fan. Lastly, I want zero outsourcing. No blaming the outsourced company for their problems.

I couldn't agree with you more but they already do that. They have a friggen plan Z when it comes to keeping oil out of the environment.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Why is that so much to ask? The only reason I can think of is simply that people do not care. They do not want to go through the trouble of quality assurance and problem prevention. They also do not want to set themselves up to be caught in a position where they have to spend a lot of money to fix something should a problem occur.

[/quote]

Seriously, you can't know what your talking about. They do exactly what you are asking of them. They spend an absurd amount of money in quality control to prevent spills and they do a damned good job of it. On the rare occasion there is a spill they are Johnny on the spot when it comes to clean up because it is cheaper than the alternative.

Bottom line: All of your concerns are currently being. Has your position changed?

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: NeoV
"the Energy Information Administration estimates that if the go-ahead were given right now for such drilling, it would be 2030 before there would be enough oil flowing to have a "significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices."

Full story here: http://www.factcheck.org/elect..._tank_of_nonsense.html

How about an end to all the ridiculous, Sean Hannity inspried "I talked to my friend, an oil insider, who said this oil could be at the pump in 3 years, tops".

perhaps we can't be completely off of foreign oil in 10 years, as Gore has challenged us, but if we aren't by 2030 - shame on us all.

Are you kidding me?

Count the times the word "assumed" was used in your "proof". Not to mention the absurdity that it would take 2 decades for the oil companies to develop a significant amount of the land.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: NeoV
"the Energy Information Administration estimates that if the go-ahead were given right now for such drilling, it would be 2030 before there would be enough oil flowing to have a "significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices."

You should re-read your link because that's not what it says.

The EIA access reports assumes the moritorium will remain until until 2012 with no production until until 2017.

Otherwise, might be informative to read all their other assumptions too. They are assuming a rather small increase in reserves, no one knows what they are actually because exploration has been off limits for decades.

Full story here: http://www.factcheck.org/elect..._tank_of_nonsense.html

How about an end to all the ridiculous, Sean Hannity inspried "I talked to my friend, an oil insider, who said this oil could be at the pump in 3 years, tops".

So, the difference is two fvcking years? He says 3 years, the EIA assumes 5 years. I'll trust the oil guy. BTW: hhe didn't 3 years for all, but some that spots due to their location could start production in 3 years. The difference is not how long it takes to drill etc, but how long it takes to get infrastructure in place to capture/transport the oil to a storage/refining facility

perhaps we can't be completely off of foreign oil in 10 years, as Gore has challenged us, but if we aren't by 2030 - shame on us all.

See bolded

BTW: Gore has no plan to get off oil in 10 years, unless he thinks we generate electrical power from oil. Gore's plan is about electricity and we primarily use coal for that. We have a ton of coal too.

Fern

 

[NeoV]

Gore has no plan? WTF - pretend his name is something else, and perhaps you can actually hear what he says. Electric or other alternatively powered cars/trucks - extra electricity as needed from renewable sources - solar, wind, etc..it's not complicated.

It continues to amaze me how people are against this.