Bush Opposes Tiawan Independance from China

[CaptnKirk]

For Real ?

A 'One China' Policy ?

 

[ManSnake]

History lesson for you:

When China and the U.S. formally established diplomatic ties in 1979, the communique had the following words: "The United States of America recognizes the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China. Within this context, the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people of Taiwan... The Government of the United States of America acknowledges the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China."

In a later joint Communique, America stated that: "The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves."

 

[DealMonkey]

The U.S. often says one thing and means another. For many decades an attack by China against Taiwan would prompt military intervention by the U.S. Plus Taiwan was given access to our best military equipment (Aegis), etc. I wonder now if this is truly a departure from that policy - in other words, do we really mean it? Or do we only mean it as long as China is peaceful towards Taiwan and practices the 'One China Two Systems'?

IMO, we should be more worried about the trade imbalance with China. It's grown to truly epic proportions: $12.7 Billion as of Sept 03.

 

[EagleKeeper]

A Taiwan declaration would put the US in a pickle.

Currently we will protect Taiwan from mainland agression. Should Taiwan force the mainland's hand by declaring independence, then the US could not properly come to Taiwan's side because there is no longer one China. However, economicaly and politically it would cause problems due to the communist vs democracy ideals.

There is also the potential of losing the mainland China market vs the current ecomonmic ties to Taiwan.

That is why both mainland china and the US tiptoe around the issue. If Taiwan pushes the issue, no one wins.

Personally, I suspect that Taiwan has the ability to trigger mainland China to step over the line and cause the US to have to become involved on their (Taiwan's) side.

They would like to not have to keep looking over the strait and wondering will mainland China steamroll them before the US can intervene, and will the US intervene.

 

[kage69]

Too bad, I'd have hoped Bush to have a little more back bone here. The Communists have never owned Taiwan, and there are millions of people who live there who want nothing to do with Beijing.
Not that it matters I guess, we all known the PRC isn't in the business of listening to anyone. The Communists never owned Tibet, but that didn't stop them from annexing it.


Hope it got us some good leverage with NK.
Here's hoping every scrap of high-tech R&D can be removed from the island before the reds overrun it (yeah I know, I can dream).

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: kage69
Too bad, I'd have hoped Bush to have a little more back bone here. The Communists have never owned Taiwan, and there are millions of people who live there who want nothing to do with Beijing.
Not that it matters I guess, we all known the PRC isn't in the business of listening to anyone. The Communists never owned Tibet, but that didn't stop them from annexing it.


Hope it got us some good leverage with NK.
Here's hoping every scrap of high-tech R&D can be removed from the island before the reds overrun it (yeah I know, I can dream).

I guess you will have to keep on dreaming. If you want to talk about Tibet, at least bring up Xingjiang (or some would like to call it East Turkistan) and Inner Mongolia. But I guess Tibet is the only place you know. FYI Dalai Lama is not the only religious figure in Tibetan buddhism, although he was (and still is) against the communists rule of Tibet, another religious figure, Panchen Lama supported the communists. So fittingly Dalai left China voluntarily (though he would like you to believe that it was exile) and went into hiding in India.

Anway, those of you that are shouting "free Tibet, free..." are living a pipe dream. In this world you are the boss if you are strong, and that's a fact!

 

[Fencer128]

I guess you will have to keep on dreaming. If you want to talk about Tibet, at least bring up Xingjiang (or some would like to call it East Turkistan) and Inner Mongolia. But I guess Tibet is the only place you know. FYI Dalai Lama is not the only religious figure in Tibetan buddhism, although he was (and still is) against the communists rule of Tibet, another religious figure, Panchen Lama supported the communists. So fittingly Dalai left China voluntarily (though he would like you to believe that it was exile) and went into hiding in India.

Anway, those of you that are shouting "free Tibet, free..." are living a pipe dream. In this world you are the boss if you are strong, and that's a fact!

I thought the Panchen Lama was placed, groomed and brainwashed by the Chinese?

Andy

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

I guess you will have to keep on dreaming. If you want to talk about Tibet, at least bring up Xingjiang (or some would like to call it East Turkistan) and Inner Mongolia. But I guess Tibet is the only place you know. FYI Dalai Lama is not the only religious figure in Tibetan buddhism, although he was (and still is) against the communists rule of Tibet, another religious figure, Panchen Lama supported the communists. So fittingly Dalai left China voluntarily (though he would like you to believe that it was exile) and went into hiding in India.

Anway, those of you that are shouting "free Tibet, free..." are living a pipe dream. In this world you are the boss if you are strong, and that's a fact!

I thought the Panchen Lama was placed, groomed and brainwashed by the Chinese?

Andy

That's supposedly the next incarnation of the Panchen Lama chosen by the Tibetan monks. The previously legit Panchen Lama that was a stern supporter of the communists is already dead. Actually right now there are two Panchen Lama, one chosen the monks in Lhasa, Tibet and the other by the current Dalai Lama. But neither are legit according to the custom. Panchen Lama must be chosen by the council of monks with Dalai Lama present from a golden urn in Lhasa, Tibet.

 

[kage69]

I guess you will have to keep on dreaming. If you want to talk about Tibet, at least bring up Xingjiang (or some would like to call it East Turkistan) and Inner Mongolia. But I guess Tibet is the only place you know. FYI Dalai Lama is not the only religious figure in Tibetan buddhism, although he was (and still is) against the communists rule of Tibet, another religious figure, Panchen Lama supported the communists. So fittingly Dalai left China voluntarily (though he would like you to believe that it was exile) and went into hiding in India.

You must be taking lessons on assumptions from Whitling. The reason I specifically stated Tibet is because Tibetans are not Chinese. Xingjiang had large numbers of Chinese (amoung others) there before the Communists rolled in.
Perhaps you can point out those who have been chanting "Free Tibet, Free Tibet..." or are you in the practice of starting null-debates in an attempt to appear informed? It certainly seems so: all of a sudden you're talking about the Dalai Lama and how he's not the only religious figure in Tibet? How exactly is that relevent?
I would say self-imposed exile is still exile. Can you blame the Dalai Lama for not wanting to go to a 're-education camp' ?
Anyone know many Tibetans have died since the Chinese moved in?

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: kage69

I guess you will have to keep on dreaming. If you want to talk about Tibet, at least bring up Xingjiang (or some would like to call it East Turkistan) and Inner Mongolia. But I guess Tibet is the only place you know. FYI Dalai Lama is not the only religious figure in Tibetan buddhism, although he was (and still is) against the communists rule of Tibet, another religious figure, Panchen Lama supported the communists. So fittingly Dalai left China voluntarily (though he would like you to believe that it was exile) and went into hiding in India.

You must be taking lessons on assumptions from Whitling. The reason I specifically stated Tibet is because Tibetans are not Chinese. Xingjiang had large numbers of Chinese (amoung others) there before the Communists rolled in.
Perhaps you can point out those who have been chanting "Free Tibet, Free Tibet..." or are you in the practice of starting null-debates in an attempt to appear informed? It certainly seems so: all of a sudden you're talking about the Dalai Lama and how he's not the only religious figure in Tibet? How exactly is that relevent?
I would say self-imposed exile is still exile. Can you blame the Dalai Lama for not wanting to go to a 're-education camp' ?
Anyone know many Tibetans have died since the Chinese moved in?

Are you kidding me? From what you have written, I see that you know very little about the history of either Tibet or Xingjiang. You say a large number of ethnic Hans (China is a multi-ethnic nation, mind you) reside in Xinjiang? Xingjiang is predominatly Uighur Muslim! Well over 10 million in fact. If you bring up the fact that PRC is occupying Tibet and fails to mention anything about Xingjiang, then you obviously know nothing. Even til this day, there are still muslim seperatists from Xingjiang that terrorize the people of the inner Chinese provinces by blowing up buses and buildings.

After the communists took over after the failed revolut by the Tibetan seperatists, Tibet's native population has actually increased dramtically due to better living conditions. There is no cultural extermination by the communists.

 

[kage69]

Are you kidding me? From what you have written, I see that you know very little about the history of either Tibet or Xingjiang. You say a large number of ethnic Hans (China is a multi-ethnic nation, mind you) reside in Xinjiang? Xingjiang is predominatly Uighur Muslim! Well over 10 million in fact. If you bring up the fact that PRC is occupying Tibet and fails to mention anything about Xingjiang, then you obviously know nothing. Even til this day, there are still muslim seperatists from Xingjiang that terrorize the people of the inner Chinese provinces by blowing up buses and buildings.

You throw out some academic chestnuts assuming I'm ignorant of them, and also fail to answer my questions. Typical. I'm well aware how ethnically diverse China is, as well as the Uighars being native to Xingjiang along with their struggle for autonomy that continues to this day. I've already stated why I specifically mentioned Tibet - if you feel the need to be a pompous ass, fine.

After the communists took over after the failed revolut by the Tibetan seperatists, Tibet's native population has actually increased dramtically due to better living conditions. There is no cultural extermination by the communists.

Now I'm convinced your a tard. You make it seem like the Communists showed up AFTER the uprising of 55-56, and even call them 'seperatists.' How is it you become a 'seperatist' if you're trying to kick out an invader from your native land?
No cultural extermination by the communists? Let's see, six years of political and religious repression, followed by 2 years of the PLA and it's terror tactics: clergy being tortured, burned alive, decapitated, buried alive, and celibate monks and nuns forced to have intercourse as amusement for the troops. Oh, and those left alive who looked questionable got sent to work camps in Qinghai (read: death sentence). No, great people those Communists, terrrrrrrific.

But now many places in Tibet have decent roads and running water, so it was all worth it. Thanks ManSnake, I've seen the light, what was I thinking?!

 

[kage69]

There is no cultural extermination by the communists.

Man I love sentences like this, especially coming from someone who professes to know what their talking about. I'm sure we'd all love to hear your take on the 'Cultural Revolution' ManSnake. Please, enlighten us...

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't think WalMart would like us screwing around. The technical challenge is how to get corporate wealth out of the US and into china. Family wealth usually follows blood. I don't know whether to take a chinese wife or easternize my corporation. Decisions, decisions.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't think WalMart would like us screwing around. The technical challenge is how to get corporate wealth out of the US and into china. Family wealth usually follows blood. I don't know whether to take a chinese wife or easternize my corporation. Decisions, decisions.

Well.. if you get married be sure it is in Bermuda or Iraq.. and as far as the Corp goes.. dissolve it and form a new one way off shore and sell Chinese stuff to Americans.. there is big money in that I hear.. don't matter what it is we'll buy it cuz it is cheap.

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: kage69

Are you kidding me? From what you have written, I see that you know very little about the history of either Tibet or Xingjiang. You say a large number of ethnic Hans (China is a multi-ethnic nation, mind you) reside in Xinjiang? Xingjiang is predominatly Uighur Muslim! Well over 10 million in fact. If you bring up the fact that PRC is occupying Tibet and fails to mention anything about Xingjiang, then you obviously know nothing. Even til this day, there are still muslim seperatists from Xingjiang that terrorize the people of the inner Chinese provinces by blowing up buses and buildings.

You throw out some academic chestnuts assuming I'm ignorant of them, and also fail to answer my questions. Typical. I'm well aware how ethnically diverse China is, as well as the Uighars being native to Xingjiang along with their struggle for autonomy that continues to this day. I've already stated why I specifically mentioned Tibet - if you feel the need to be a pompous ass, fine.

After the communists took over after the failed revolut by the Tibetan seperatists, Tibet's native population has actually increased dramtically due to better living conditions. There is no cultural extermination by the communists.

Now I'm convinced your a tard. You make it seem like the Communists showed up AFTER the uprising of 55-56, and even call them 'seperatists.' How is it you become a 'seperatist' if you're trying to kick out an invader from your native land?
No cultural extermination by the communists? Let's see, six years of political and religious repression, followed by 2 years of the PLA and it's terror tactics: clergy being tortured, burned alive, decapitated, buried alive, and celibate monks and nuns forced to have intercourse as amusement for the troops. Oh, and those left alive who looked questionable got sent to work camps in Qinghai (read: death sentence). No, great people those Communists, terrrrrrrific.

But now many places in Tibet have decent roads and running water, so it was all worth it. Thanks ManSnake, I've seen the light, what was I thinking?!

So I am a tard now? You said the Chinese never owned Tibet? Tibet was already conqured by China during the Qing Dynasty. I bet you will say but no, Manchus are not Chinese. I suppose when you say Chinese you only mean the Hans. Once again, I would like to state that Chinese people are multi-ethnic, there are well over 50 ethnicities in China. Then came the nationalists that formed ROC, they also claimed Tibet as China. Eventually they were defeated by the communists and PRC was formed. Naturally the commies inherited the terrority from the previous regime. So those Tibetans that fought in the revolt against PLA are seperatists by definition. Oh and you probably should stop reading articles written by the people associated with the 'exiled' Tibetan government and actually talk to someone from Tibet about what life is like there.

Btw, I am still waiting for your explanation on why you omitted Xingjiang when you made the comment about Chinese occupying foreign terrories.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't think WalMart would like us screwing around. The technical challenge is how to get corporate wealth out of the US and into china. Family wealth usually follows blood. I don't know whether to take a chinese wife or easternize my corporation. Decisions, decisions.

Well.. if you get married be sure it is in Bermuda or Iraq.. and as far as the Corp goes.. dissolve it and form a new one way off shore and sell Chinese stuff to Americans.. there is big money in that I hear.. don't matter what it is we'll buy it cuz it is cheap.

Not always so cheep. Up in Japan town there's a chinese importer selling quartz rocks from some riverin China for eighty dollars a pop. Kind of an expensive way to get stoned. I wanted the slate with the plesiosaurs that was a mere 25000.

 

[rchiu]

I could've swear a few month back Bush and his PR machine was chanting democracy and freedom for Iraqis. But now because China has all these military might and potential market for his deep pocketed friend, all of the sudden Taiwan belongs to China, never mind that Chinese government is probably as bad as Saddam Hussien in terms of democracy and human right?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: rchiu
I could've swear a few month back Bush and his PR machine was chanting democracy and freedom for Iraqis. But now because China has all these military might and potential market for his deep pocketed friend, all of the sudden Taiwan belongs to China, never mind that Chinese government is probably as bad as Saddam Hussien in terms of democracy and human right?

Spreading democracy is a selective process and done strictly at our convenience within our threshold for pain. Don't try second-guessing this administration!

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: kage69

There is no cultural extermination by the communists.

Man I love sentences like this, especially coming from someone who professes to know what their talking about. I'm sure we'd all love to hear your take on the 'Cultural Revolution' ManSnake. Please, enlighten us...

Funny you would say that. Take a trip to China and see for yourself why don't you? Religious oppression? That applies to the Hans only. Go to Qinghai or Tibet and see the buddhist monks in their temples or go to Xingjiang to see the muslims reciting Qu'ran in their mosques, see if there are any government officials or PLA soldiers harassing them.

Tibetans, Ugihurs, and every other minority group is free to practice whatever religion they want as long as they don't preach independence. The communists in China are not stupid, they want to project themselves to the world as tolerant and considerate to minorities. That's why for a long time only minority families in China can have more than one child without being fined or penalized by the government. [edit:] That's also why you will always see minority representation for each minority group in the People's National Congress even though we all know they are pretty much just for shows.

 

[Red Dawn]

You ever wonder why Red China's economy has really picked up where as the Soviet Union imploded due to their Communist ideals?

 

[kage69]

So I am a tard now? You said the Chinese never owned Tibet?

Yes. No, in fact my exact words were...

The Communists never owned Tibet, but that didn't stop them from annexing it.

I brought up Tibet because 1.) They aren't Chinese, and 2.) The Hans and Manchus didn't permeate into Tibet to the extent they did in other areas, Xianjiang included. While the desert is indeed the original home of the Uighars, it was also home to a number of other ethnic groups, as well as Hans and Manchus on the run. It doesn't matter though, you don't have a point here. You think because I didn't mention Xianjiang at the same time (never mind that I haven't disagreed that the area was annexed just like Tibet) that it somehow invalidates my opinion. Whatever, like I said earlier, if you feel the need to be an ass...

Btw, I'm still waiting on you to tell us:

a.) The relevence on the Dalai Lama not being the only religious leader in Tibetan Buddhism.
b.) Who the 'Free Tibet' people you were chastising are.
c.) The relevence of the Dalai Lama fleeing to India.
d.) Why you believe the communists don't commit cultural extermination.

 

[fwtong]

It's a good thing that Bush is all about supporting Democracy in the world.

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: kage69

So I am a tard now? You said the Chinese never owned Tibet?

Yes. No, in fact my exact words were...

The Communists never owned Tibet, but that didn't stop them from annexing it.

I brought up Tibet because 1.) They aren't Chinese, and 2.) The Hans and Manchus didn't permeate into Tibet to the extent they did in other areas, Xianjiang included. While the desert is indeed the original home of the Uighars, it was also home to a number of other ethnic groups, as well as Hans and Manchus on the run. It doesn't matter though, you don't have a point here. You think because I didn't mention Xianjiang at the same time (never mind that I haven't disagreed that the area was annexed just like Tibet) that it somehow invalidates my opinion. Whatever, like I said earlier, if you feel the need to be an ass...

Btw, I'm still waiting on you to tell us:

a.) The relevence on the Dalai Lama not being the only religious leader in Tibetan Buddhism.
b.) Who the 'Free Tibet' people you were chastising are.
c.) The relevence of the Dalai Lama fleeing to India.
d.) Why you believe the communists don't commit cultural extermination.

Ok, let's see here

a) The fact that Panchen Lama sided with the communists is reason enough to explain why.
b) Richard Gere and the like in this country.
c) See a.
d) See my previous post.

Xingjiang had large numbers of Chinese (amoung others) there before the Communists rolled in.

What does whether there are a large number of Hans living in the area or not has anything to do with the fact that Tibet, Xingjiang, Mongolia were conqured first by the Qing, then claimed by ROC and finally by PRC as part of their own? It's recorded history and you try to deny it? But whatever, like I said, keep on living your pipe dream!

 

[kage69]

Nice backpeddling there...

Allow me to refresh your memory, you said:

There is no cultural extermination by the communists.

That's a pretty bold statement there, doesn't appear to be any type of way one could misconstrue that.
Was it the Hans who put down the Tibetans in 59? No, it was the communists. Temples as well as villages were completely destroyed when the PLA rolled through. I suppose the Hans started the 'Cultural Revolution' in their attempt to purge China of all the 'great olds' too huh? Sorry, communists again. You're right SnakeMan, there is no oppression in China whatsoever...unless you have AIDS...or are with Falun Gong...or write a song or poem even remotely critical of Beijing...

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
You ever wonder why Red China's economy has really picked up where as the Soviet Union imploded due to their Communist ideals?

That's an easy one. China opened up its door and let it's neighbors invest. Taiwan, Japan and many other countries invested money, technology and business practice and add those to the 1.2 billion cheap labor in China, you get a hot economy. Russia on the other hand doesn't get that much foreign investments, dunno if it is policy or just no one want to invest there, but that pretty much is the difference.