Bush vetoes child healthcare again.

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: loki8481
proof that the number of uninsured americans is taking illegal immigrants / non-americans into account?

He can't provide that because he's making it up as he goes along.

and who's uninsured by choice?

"no thanks, I'd rather not be covered in case I get struck by cancer or hit by a stray bullet; you take your free insurance and shoo."

I think in this day and age of two-income famlies that many companies off the choice of extra pay instead of insurance so a working couple will go with whoever's insurance offers the best coverage and take the extra money from the other company... or at least not have to pay an additional premium for insurance they don't need.

 

[LongTimePCUser]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: LongTimePCUser

Also, Paleface, you may love math, but based on your posting it does not look like you are very good at it.

Which calculation of mine was incorrect?

Paleface,
You were subtracting apples from oranges to get the number of grapes remaining.

Of the 50 mil uninsured Americans, an estimated 40% are that way by choice, which leaves 30,000,000 uninsured Americans who want it, but cannot afford it.

Where does this estimate of 40% by choice come from? Did you make it up? People who choose not to get health insurance typically do so either because of the cost or because their employer does not offer health insurance. Walmart, for example, does not offer health insurance to most employees. The only reliable number you have here is the 50 million uninsured. The 40% by choice mostly make that choice because they think they can't afford it.

Of those, 22,000,000 are illegal Americans.
Therefore, roughly 8,000,000 legal Americans are uninsured,

Illegals are undocumented and therefore not tracked or counted in the 50 million.
That means that if you subtract 22 million undocumented from 50 million uninsured, you still get 50 million uninsured.

To repeat, you were subtracting apples from oranges to get the number of grapes remaining.

 

[afawzy316]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

palehorse ....your post is so ridiculous and silly ....thats not called math by any stretch of the imagination..... at least try to look things up before you start spewing BS....here i'll help u

http://kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-03.pdf

as you can see 18% of americans are uninsured....none of those are illegal immigrants since they aren't counted in this data or any data for that matter....hell if the government could count them and know their insurance status you'd think they'd just deport them!

Also, let's not forget that uninsure people are EVERYONE'S problem....an uninsured person walks into an ER and can't pay....who do you think pays for him/her???

YOU!!!!

they charge your insurance company more money when you show up to the ER and the insurance company dutifully passes that cost on to you.

oh and let's not forget they have to add their 20% commission for insuring u.

oh and if you actually looked at the link you might be wondering why they only count non-elderly people and that's because most elderly people have medicare and those who don't have medicaid. So you can't go around counting them in your "estimates" and say that government insurance is useless at the same time....that's like having your cake and eating it too.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: afawzy316
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

palehorse ....your post is so ridiculous and silly ....thats not called math by any stretch of the imagination..... at least try to look things up before you start spewing BS....here i'll help u

http://kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-03.pdf

as you can see 18% of americans are uninsured....none of those are illegal immigrants since they aren't counted in this data or any data for that matter....hell if the government could count them and know their insurance status you'd think they'd just deport them!

Also, let's not forget that uninsure people are EVERYONE'S problem....an uninsured person walks into an ER and can't pay....who do you think pays for him/her???

YOU!!!!

they charge your insurance company more money when you show up to the ER and the insurance company dutifully passes that cost on to you.

oh and let's not forget they have to add their 20% commission for insuring u.

oh and if you actually looked at the link you might be wondering why they only count non-elderly people and that's because most elderly people have medicare and those who don't have medicaid. So you can't go around counting them in your "estimates" and say that government insurance is useless at the same time....that's like having your cake and eating it too.

OK, let me walk you through this slick... and without illegals as part of the equation - even though I already did so in the original post as well.

OK... so...

Total population = 300,000,000

18% you say?

300*0.18 = 54... SO, 54 million are uninsured. (I originally used the rough estimate of 50...)

Of those 54 million, previously published estimates indicate that as many as 40% choose to live without health insurance! In other words, they can afford it, but they elect not to get it! (I can think of 3 friends who do just that! They're obviously not the brightest bulbs in the drawer!)

So...

54*0.40 = 21.6... SO, roughly 21,600,000 people (read: idiots) choose to go without health insurance.

54-21.6 = 32.4... SO, roughly 32,400,000 people need health insurance, but cannot afford it. (I originally used the rough estimate of 30...)

32.4 / 300 = 0.108 = 10.8% (I originally calculated the rough estimate of 10%...)

10.8% = roughly 1 in 10 people.

I then used the estimated costs for UHC that have been provided by experts who have analyzed Hillary's proposal, and others. Those estimates range from $500 to $1000, per family of four, per month, in increased Federal taxes.

Given the current average out-of-pocket cost of health insurance, for the same families of four, is roughly $350 per month, I calculated the total increase in cost at between $150 and $650 per month, per family.

I repeat... That's an estimated increase of between $1800 and $7800, per family, per year, in Federal taxes

That will be the cost to insure the 1 in 10 who cannot afford insurance.

The only remaining question that matters is: Are you willing to pay that price above for the 1 in 10 who will benefit from UHC?

As you can see, even without mentioning illegals, my math was entirely accurate.

imagine that!

Both you and LongTimePCUser need to go back to school.... and broaden your interweb skillz with a new site named Google!

 

[nageov3t]

Of those 54 million, previously published estimates indicate that as many as 40% choose to live without health insurance!

link?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
...
OK, let me walk you through this slick... and without illegals as part of the equation - even though I already did so in the original post as well.

OK... so...

Total population = 300,000,000

18% you say?

300*0.18 = 54... SO, 54 million are uninsured. (I originally used the rough estimate of 50...)

Of those 54 million, previously published estimates indicate that as many as 40% choose to live without health insurance! In other words, they can afford it, but they elect not to get it! (I can think of 3 friends who do just that! They're obviously not the brightest bulbs in the drawer!)

So...

54*0.40 = 21.6... SO, roughly 21,600,000 people (read: idiots) choose to go without health insurance.

54-21.6 = 32.4... SO, roughly 32,400,000 people need health insurance, but cannot afford it. (I originally used the rough estimate of 30...)

32.4 / 300 = 0.108 = 10.8% (I originally calculated the rough estimate of 10%...)

10.8% = roughly 1 in 10 people.

I then used the estimated costs for UHC that have been provided by experts who have analyzed Hillary's proposal, and others. Those estimates range from $500 to $1000, per family of four, per month, in increased Federal taxes.

Given the current average out-of-pocket cost of health insurance, for the same families of four, is roughly $350 per month, I calculated the total increase in cost at between $150 and $650 per month, per family.

I repeat... That's an estimated increase of between $1800 and $7800, per family, per year, in Federal taxes

That will be the cost to insure the 1 in 10 who cannot afford insurance.

The only remaining question that matters is: Are you willing to pay that price above for the 1 in 10 who will benefit from UHC?

As you can see, even without mentioning illegals, my math was entirely accurate.

imagine that!

Both you and LongTimePCUser need to go back to school.... and broaden your interweb skillz with a new site named Google!

Typical conservative, always looking at the small picture

While your math appears to be right, assuming the expert analysis of Hillary's proposals is right, you're missing a very important point in the debate. While health coverage is not cheap, YOU don't pay 100% of the cost of your health insurance. In fact, in most companies, you don't pay anything CLOSE to 100%. According to the Washington Post (from 2 years ago) the average worker only pays about 25% of the cost of their insurance. You're only looking at the cost out of YOUR pocket, but whoever you work for probably forks over quite a bit more. And that IS money out of your pocket, because presumably a company that didn't have to pay that cost would pay you more. Or they'd have more money for hiring more people, which would help the economy. In fact, overall, UHC looks CHEAPER than what we've got now...at least once you look past "OMG, my taxes will go up!"

 

[afawzy316]

Total population = 300,000,000

18% you say?

this just goes to show u that u didn't read my post (well enough at least) or you just ignore things....clearly we're not counting everyone since old people have publicly funded insurance through medicare and medicaid.

Given the current average out-of-pocket cost of health insurance, for the same families of four, is roughly $350 per month, I calculated the total increase in cost at between $150 and $650 per month, per family.

I repeat... That's an estimated increase of between $1800 and $7800, per family, per year, in Federal taxes

this is just completely uneducated and straight out of the republican spin.....the cost of insurance on the individual market is MUCH higher than it needs to be!! You are making your calculations assuming we are paying taxes to insurance companies and not the government. Commercial insurance companies take at least a 20% in administrative costs and then some for those massive profits you always hear about....all from the premiums you pay, while the government currently takes only 2% for administrative costs in medicare!!!

On top of that, buying insurance on the individual market is significantly more expensive because you are in a higher risk pool whereas it is considerably cheaper if you get it through your employer or your union or some other group plan that has pooled risk. There is no better way to pool risk than to have everyone insured by the same company - in this case the government. Also we are talking about very low risk healthy people here.... we are already covering those with the highest healthcare expenditures (elderly and disabled) through medicare/medicaid.

so clearly as you can see your "math" doesn't work out since what your saying takes into account huge waste in administrative costs, assumes no pooled risk at all (which is just plain silly), and assumes that the government will be making massive profits off of this!!


As for those who can "afford" insurance but choose not to buy it, you overstate the prevalence MASSIVELY! The majority of uninsured are young adults who aren't pulling in as much money as you claim. Look at the link i posted above and you can see the breakdown according to income.

35% of the uninsured make more than 200% of the poverty level....FYI the federal poverty level is about $12k....so how can you claim that 40% "choose" not to have insurance? Do you think that someone who has a family income of $24k is really "choosing" not to pay almost half their income for insurance coverage????

Another interesting tidbit that i actually wasn't aware of..... 85% of uncompensated care is payed by federal and state dollars....so guess what....YOUR ALREADY PAYING FOR IT WITH YOUR TAXES! i'm sure that also puts quite a damper on your "calculations"

so please don't go around making uneducated "calculations" and pass them off as actually based in some kind of fact!

The only remaining question that matters is: Are you willing to pay that price above for the 1 in 10 who will benefit from UHC?

i think this question was answered quite thoroughly....let me restate....the cost you claim is grossly exaggerated for the reasons i stated above and you are already paying alot of the cost of the care of the uninsured through your tax money and higher insurance premiums!

Both you and LongTimePCUser need to go back to school.... and broaden your interweb skillz with a new site named Google!

i think i'm quite covered in that department seeing as i'm working on my master's degree.....wanna guess what i'm studying ....so what are your credentials? Google? Republican blogs?

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that one of the main roots of all these problems is our out of control healthcare spending stemming mostly from overuse and bad disease management. But that's a whole other discussion.

 

[afawzy316]

no response from palehorse74?

bump in case he missed it

 

[Ozoned]

Bush ok to extends status quo to 2009

A compromise between more and less is better than a choice between everything or nothing, wouldn't you agree?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Bush ok to extends status quo to 2009

A compromise between more and less is better than a choice between everything or nothing, wouldn't you agree?

It's better than nothing, but hopefully we'll have some more votes before the election to get the full measure pass to cover 10 Million kids, or at least let the public know where their representatives stand on this issue so they can make a decision come November.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Bush ok to extends status quo to 2009

A compromise between more and less is better than a choice between everything or nothing, wouldn't you agree?

You must have fallen for Rangels all or nothing spiel. There hasnt ever been nothing. It was always status quo until they got something passed. There were two continuing resolutions for SCHIP prior to this longer extension.

In fact almost everything is running on continuing resolutions at the moment.