Bush wants peace with N. Korea and War with Iraq.

Desturel

Senior member
Nov 25, 2001
553
3
81
At least he made it clear that he doesn't want to fight two wars at once.

CRAWFORD, Tex., Dec. 31 President Bush (news - web sites) drew a sharp distinction today between the nuclear standoff with North Korea (news - web sites) and his confrontation with Iraq, saying he was certain that weapons projects in North Korea could be stopped "peacefully, through diplomacy." He said that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), on the other hand, "hasn't heard the message" that he must disarm, or face military action.

Answering questions on his way into the only coffee shop in this one-stoplight town near his ranch, Mr. Bush issued no demands that North Korea halt the nuclear programs it has threatened to restart, and he did not mentioned the ouster today of the international inspectors who have monitored activity at the country's primary nuclear site.

"I believe this is not a military showdown, this is a diplomatic showdown," the president said, on his way to get a cheeseburger and to chat with his neighbors here.

But the president's tone and his warnings changed noticeably when he turned to Iraq. He cited Mr. Hussein's effort to build a nuclear weapon in the early 1990's and said that as of now "we don't know whether or not he has a nuclear weapon."

Assessing the nuclear capability of both North Korea and Iraq has been among the most difficult tasks facing Western intelligence agencies. The Central Intelligence Agency (news - web sites) and Britain's intelligence service have publicly estimated it would take Iraq five years to develop such a weapon or a single year if Mr. Hussein was provided with fissile material. North Korea already has two weapons, according to C.I.A. estimates, and could build five or six more in the next six months if it reprocessed its large stockpile of spent nuclear fuel into weapons-grade plutonium.

Adding to the pressure, North Korea took another step today toward removing its nuclear program from international controls by strongly suggesting it would withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

The signals Mr. Bush sent with his comments were particularly significant because the administration has come under increasing criticism, from Democrats and some Republicans, for playing down the significance of North Korea's actions while plowing forward in the confrontation with Iraq.

In The New York Times today, former Secretary of State Warren Christopher wrote that unless Mr. Bush had classified evidence of greater Iraqi military capability than was known to the public, "the threats from North Korea and from international terrorism are more imminent than those posed by Iraq."

Mr. Bush took issue with that view today. Asked whether the United States could afford the $50 billion to $60 billion it would cost to wage war with Iraq, an estimate his budget director offered on Monday, he said, "an attack from Saddam Hussein or a surrogate of Saddam Hussein would cripple our economy." He added, "A Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is a threat to the security of the American people."

In contrast, he said nothing about his view of the threat posed by Kim Jong Il, the North Korean leader.

During his presidential campaign, Mr. Bush often cited the possibility of an attack by North Korea as a reason that the United States needed a missile defense system. North Korea already has a significant arsenal of missiles that could reach South Korea (news - web sites), Japan and 100,000 American troops stationed in Asia; Mr. Hussein is believed to possess only Scud missiles with far more limited range.

Nevertheless, Mr. Bush talked at some length today about his worry that Iraq could find a way to attack the United States, either directly or indirectly. As he spoke, a crowd of Crawford residents and curious tourists gathered around the entrance of the coffee shop.

In his comments, Mr. Bush also addressed for the first time the F.B.I. alert issued two days ago, asking Americans to keep a lookout for five people, all of Arab descent, it is searching for in the United States. Mr. Bush said he had authorized the F.B.I. to put out an all-points bulletin. He did not refer to the men as terrorism suspects, but said, "We need to know why they have been smuggled into the country."

Mr. Bush's comments today about North Korea and Iraq seemed to suggest that he has concluded that Mr. Kim can be persuaded to reverse course under threat of economic pressure, a method that Mr. Bush says has failed with Iraq. He twice noted that in a meeting at his ranch this fall with President Jiang Zemin (news - web sites) of China, the two leaders promised to work in concert to deal with the North Korean government.

"Right here in Crawford, we had a dialogue where we both committed ourselves to working in a way to convince Kim Jong Il that it's not in his country's interests to arm up with nuclear weapons," Mr. Bush said, standing in front of the coffee shop in a light windbreaker, after a morning of working around his ranch. "And I believe that can be resolved peacefully."

China has denounced North Korea's actions, but it has stopped short of saying it will join in any economic sanctions against the country a critical omission, because China is one of the North's most important trading partners.

In discussing Iraq, the president told reporters, "I hope we're not headed to war." But he quickly added: "We've got a military presence there to remind Saddam Hussein, however, that when I say we will lead a coalition of the willing to disarm him if he chooses not to disarm, I mean it. And we will continue to work to resolve the situation on the Korean Peninsula in a peaceful way."

In private, some of Mr. Bush's aides offer a more explicit explanation of the difference in the administration's approach to the two countries. They argue that the North's existing nuclear capability, and its ability to wreak enormous damage on Seoul with its conventional weapons, has led them to conclude that the United States has no viable military options, at least without risking the rekindling of the Korean War.

Mr. Hussein, they contend, is the more dangerous of the two men, seeking regional domination rather than just survival. They say he must be confronted before he obtains the kinds of weapons of mass destruction that Mr. Kim already possesses.

One of Mr. Bush's senior national security officials argued over the weekend, however, that the United States was not putting North Korea on the back burner while it dealt with Iraq, and did not need to do so. "We can handle both," the official said.

Mr. Christopher's article today suggested that no president, even in a White House as disciplined as this one, could manage that feat.

"Anyone who has worked at the highest levels of our government," he wrote, "knows how difficult it is to engage the attention of the White House on anything other than the issue of the day."
 

spaceman

Lifer
Dec 4, 2000
17,602
166
106
What is North Korea going to do???
start launching missiles w/o provocation?When they know full well their entire country will be levelled???
This problem is for South Korea,Japan and China to deal with.

 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Nobody wants a war, unless you are a dictator who hunger to expand their territory.

To say Bush wants a war like he is hungry for a war is just a ridiculous and reckless.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: ncircle
What is North Korea going to do???
start launching missiles w/o provocation?When they know full well their entire country will be levelled???
This problem is for South Korea,Japan and China to deal with.


I agree with ncircle, N. Korea is surrounded by countries that not only have the interest but also have the military and diplomatic capabilities to deal with N. Korea. Add Russia to the group and let them take the lead on getting N.K. to settle down.


 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
I agree with ncircle, N. Korea is surrounded by countries that not only have the interest but also have the military and diplomatic capabilities to deal with N. Korea. Add Russia to the group and let them take the lead on getting N.K. to settle down.
russia's diplomatic genius consists in leveling grozny to the ground - twice ! - in search of a painless and expeditious end to
their chechnya headache.

if the u.s. would like to cut their umbilical cord to the korean peninsual and her regional interests, they must first do something about those 30,000+ troops they have arrayed along a certain parallel.

bush believes a peaceful diplomatic resolution is possible with one of his 'axis of evil' points because north korean despots in the
past have showed a willingness to surrender their nuclear program in return for substantial economic aid, far above what is currently
being provided. a u.s. military intervention is not a possibility now because there is no defense technology in place that could protect
the south korean population from heavy north korean reprisals.

 

MSNY

Senior member
Oct 29, 1999
474
0
0
This reminds me of the saying "you speak with forked tongue". I think
Bush has just done that.

I voted for Bush and am a strong supporter for the most part BUT....

Did he not state that we would go anywhere in the world to fight terrorism and
put NK into the same "Axis of evil" as Iraq and Iran in his address to congress ?

Right after 9/11 did I assume WRONGLY that we would treat all these bad boys the
same way ?

Now were playing the part as to who we can bully the best and least with military force.
Were willing to fight Iraq who may not have any nukes and would not be a direct threat to
the US for a long time. Meanwhile, NK may have 2 to 4 nukes, threatens our troops in SK.
Can in the near future hit Japan and our other friends in that region with there medium range scuds.

Were not enforcing the SAME resolve or policy that I heard Bush declare after 9/11. If we invade Iraq
we will be tied down there for years, while NK builds it capacity to hit us directly with ICBM's. There
nuts enough to do it. There at least as fanatical as Sadam.

NK knows we are preoccupied with Iraq.
They are more dangerous then Iraq will ever be, yet were willing to use "diplomacy".
I hope this does not haunt us and bite us in the a** later on.


 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
MSNY

I'm getting tired of pointing this out so I'm just going to phrase it as a question.

Do you think US foreign policy should be stamped out by a cookie cutter? Should the US ignore regional, political, and military differences in its treatment of nations?
 

Dudd

Platinum Member
Aug 3, 2001
2,865
0
0
MSNY-

You can't pick fights with everyone. We can take Saddam with limited consequences. Sure, he probably would unleash a couple of Scuds at Israel, perhaps containing chemical weapons or perhaps not. In any event, while it would be a problem, it wouldn't be catastrophic. However, if we pick a fight with NK, we can say goodbye to South Korea. Kim Jong Il already had nukes, and if we attack him, I have little doubt he'll use them on SK, killing at least hundreds of thousands. Once someone has that capability, you simply can't march in there and fight. You have to diplomatically find a solution, because in a nuclear war, no one wins.
 

MSNY

Senior member
Oct 29, 1999
474
0
0
I'm getting tired of pointing this out so I'm just going to phrase it as a question.

So relax. I was only pointing out that after 9/11 the President made it clear we would
do what's needed for security. He said this was a new day and America would defend
itself against all it's enemies by name: Iraq, Iran & NK. I just want him to keep his
commitement and not backtract with these fanatics.

Do you think US foreign policy should be stamped out by a cookie cutter? Should the US ignore regional, political, and military differences in its treatment of nations?

Cookie cutters are for children, face the reality here. the threat is real. Iraq's threat is there
but at this time not verified as real as NK's. Verified nukes scare thr crap out of people.

I'll answer your question with these.

I'snt the clear REAL threat of nuclear weapons against regional friends just a a notch up from what Iraq is doing ?

Are we afraid to confront this evil because of regional politics such as China ect ?

In my mind we are setting a double standard contrary to our 9/11 policy.



 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Just general info for those who are not aware as to what will happen if NK decides to attack SK;

NK artillery will reach Seoul, SK in 53 seconds. Seoul will be decimated within minutes and civilian causualties will reach hundreds of thousands.
 

MSNY

Senior member
Oct 29, 1999
474
0
0
You can't pick fights with everyone. We can take Saddam with limited consequences. Sure, he probably would unleash a couple of Scuds at Israel, perhaps containing chemical weapons or perhaps not. In any event, while it would be a problem, it wouldn't be catastrophic. However, if we pick a fight with NK, we can say goodbye to South Korea. Kim Jong Il already had nukes, and if we attack him, I have little doubt he'll use them on SK, killing at least hundreds of thousands. Once someone has that capability, you simply can't march in there and fight. You have to diplomatically find a solution, because in a nuclear war, no one wins. [/Q

So using your logic, lets wait till they make more nukes and allow them to hit us directly in just a few years.

If there taken out now, rather then later it would be better. There would be pain either way, but
polical contaiment now could cost us darly later on. They become more arrogant the more
power they have. As a terrorist state for years, we have yet to learn they will not negotiate in
good faith.

There picking this fight now (not us) knowing that we will be bogged down if we invade Iraq.
 

MSNY

Senior member
Oct 29, 1999
474
0
0
NK artillery will reach Seoul, SK in 53 seconds. Seoul will be decimated within minutes and civilian causualties will reach hundreds of thousands.

Agreed, I do not dipute this.

However the same risk exists for Isreal. Iraq can launch scuds with bio weapons and do the same thing.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,335
1
81
Originally posted by: MSNY
NK artillery will reach Seoul, SK in 53 seconds. Seoul will be decimated within minutes and civilian causualties will reach hundreds of thousands.

Agreed, I do not dipute this.

However the same risk exists for Isreal. Iraq can launch scuds with bio weapons and do the same thing.

The damage from Scuds to Isreal via Iraq launching them, vs. the damage S. Korea would face from N. Korea launching nukes isn't even on the same playing field. Depending on how many megatons the nuke is, say goodbye to 1/2 million people instantly, with another 1/2 million dieing within weeks from the radiation and others suffering genetic deformities and radiation poisoning. There is almost nothing more catastrophic then letting loose a nuclear bomb. Anyone care to remember what happened to the Japanese after WWII concerning the nukes the US dropped? Which are far weaker then what's out there today.

And you do realize that N. Korea does have one of the highest military forces per capita in the world right? Geesh, certain situations just cannot be dealt with using war as your tool. Do you want to go to the front lines to fight against North Korea? I sure as hell know I don't.

This is like comparing two different situations concerning hostages. Do you send in the SWAT team to take out 5 guys with machine guns holding 50 people hostages having the guns pointed at them at all times, or do you send them in to try to take out one guy holding someone hostage with a shotgun whos screwing around going room to room.



 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
I think it's a good thing that Pres. Bush is treating different situations differently.

Additionally, I believe that the intention is to deal with the Iraqi situation diplomatically too, Saddam just seems to need to believe we are very serious about our willingness to go to war before he lives up to the agreements he has made.

Same thing might apply to N Korea, but we haven't reached that point yet.

 

MSNY

Senior member
Oct 29, 1999
474
0
0
This is like comparing two different situations concerning hostages

Bush made that comparison directly with his "Evil Axis" policy speech.....not I.

As far as the artillary hitting SK, this is comparison of convential weapons not nuculear.

In this case the damage vs. Isreal could be about the same. No one knows if NK has there
nukes on warheads or not. Given time they will put there there anyways.

All I'm saying is that we at least need to be prepared to fight. We may not invade Iraq either
and just threating the big stick. We should at least do the same with NK to show them we
mean business.

As I said Bush made the standard clear., 9/11 should be a lesson that thousands could be
millons someday. I surely don't want to sit around and find out because we are making a
blunder now.

Pearl Harbor could come again....remember we did not want to fight Japan either but were forced
into it. These guys are no different in what they might do God forbid.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: MSNY
This is like comparing two different situations concerning hostages

Bush made that comparison directly with his "Evil Axis" policy speech.....not I.

As far as the artillary hitting SK, this is comparison of convential weapons not nuculear.

In this case the damage vs. Isreal could be about the same. No one knows if NK has there
nukes on warheads or not. Given time they will put there there anyways.

All I'm saying is that we at least need to be prepared to fight. We may not invade Iraq either
and just threating the big stick. We should at least do the same with NK to show them we
mean business.

As I said Bush made the standard clear., 9/11 should be a lesson that thousands could be
millons someday. I surely don't want to sit around and find out because we are making a
blunder now.

Pearl Harbor could come again....remember we did not want to fight Japan either but were forced
into it. These guys are no different in what they might do God forbid.

A house fire and a rattlesnake are both dangerous but both must be dealt with differently.
If you are trying to imply that the US is not concerned about the situation in N. Korea then you are not reading the news. If you think the U.S. should play cowboy and force N. Korea into a confrontation then you are not aware of the capapbility of N. Korea's military and the consequences of that action. The U.S. can contain Iraq in a military confrontation, at least it can for now and now is the time to do it before it gains the weapons and power the N. Korea has.

They are two different situations no matter how many facts you wish to ignore.

 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,335
1
81
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: MSNY
This is like comparing two different situations concerning hostages

Bush made that comparison directly with his "Evil Axis" policy speech.....not I.

As far as the artillary hitting SK, this is comparison of convential weapons not nuculear.

In this case the damage vs. Isreal could be about the same. No one knows if NK has there
nukes on warheads or not. Given time they will put there there anyways.

All I'm saying is that we at least need to be prepared to fight. We may not invade Iraq either
and just threating the big stick. We should at least do the same with NK to show them we
mean business.

As I said Bush made the standard clear., 9/11 should be a lesson that thousands could be
millons someday. I surely don't want to sit around and find out because we are making a
blunder now.

Pearl Harbor could come again....remember we did not want to fight Japan either but were forced
into it. These guys are no different in what they might do God forbid.

A house fire and a rattlesnake are both dangerous but both must be dealt with differently.
If you are trying to imply that the US is not concerned about the situation in N. Korea then you are not reading the news. If you think the U.S. should play cowboy and force N. Korea into a confrontation then you are not aware of the capapbility of N. Korea's military and the consequences of that action. The U.S. can contain Iraq in a military confrontation, at least it can for now and now is the time to do it before it gains the weapons and power the N. Korea has.

They are two different situations no matter how many facts you wish to ignore.

Summed it up very nicely.

 

MSNY

Senior member
Oct 29, 1999
474
0
0
If you are trying to imply that the US is not concerned about the situation in N. Korea then you are not reading the news

Hmmm....I watch CNN, Fox News, Net news ect. I consider myself well informed. I also support our
president.

I understand the situation. I also understand the risks if we do not handle this over the long term.
I don't want to be caught with our pants down. We have found time after time that we cannot
negotiate with this terrorist state in good faith. They promised to disarm the nukes if we gave them
fuel oil. We did and they want ahead and kept there programs going secretly.

They cannot be trusted. We may need to show them some muscle before it's over. That's all I'm saying
let's be prepared.

Using your examples in the same vain: You don't let a thief out of jail to commit other crimes
before his sentence is up. A 2 time loser is bound to strike again, he has nothing to lose.
He may go down fighting on a shootout.
It's the nature of the criminal mind. He does not reason like you or I that he may get life as a 3 time
loser. He lives only for today and does not think ahead to the consequences.

These terrorists are no different.

 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Oh, yeah!
And you guys probably believe that Iraq is going to launch an attack on the US like Bush suggested in his new year's speech ....
Wake up, morons!!!
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Oh, yeah!
And you guys probably believe that Iraq is going to launch an attack on the US like Bush suggested in his new year's speech ....
Wake up, morons!!!


Thank you for you well thought out and enlightening contribution to the thread.


MSNY
I don't see what the problem is. The US administration seems to be covering all of the points that you have raised. They are not ignoring N. Korea. I am not aware of military preparations but I am willing to bet that contingency plans are being dusted off, updated and prepared continuously. Is there something specific you want the US to do that it already isn't?

You might want to add the BBC into your list. Fox and CNN are not on the top of places that I would get the majority of world news from.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Pearl Harbor could come again....remember we did not want to fight Japan either but were forced

Actually there was a pitched battle of hawks/doves in FDR's administration. Conspiracy theorists aside there is ample evidence that FDR was EAGER to enter WWII. His major obstacle was an isolationist US public. Admittedly, Japan would never be appeased and would have conquered most of the Pacific Rim if we had not entered the war. FDR was pretty confident that we could take the Japanese once the nation was united in the conflict. FDR tried to force conflict throughout 1940 and 1941. I'm not convinced he could have prevented Pearl Harbor but it started the War for America and that was certainly his goal.

I understand the situation. I also understand the risks if we do not handle this over the long term.
No you don't understand the situation and neither did Bush when he quoted the Axis of Evil. NK has essentially no means of reaching out to the world. Some urban areas have the facade of the 20th century but beneath that layer and throughout 95% of the country they are an Asian version of 80s Ethiopia . . . except of course they are armed to the teeth. Fiercely xenophobic, militant, and starving is what NK embodies. The people you so cavalierly describe as being leveled have never held any direct ill will towards you b/c they know little about you other than the party line. The party line is imperialists from the West (mainly US) and Japan have tried and failed to conquer the Peninsula. You must always be vigilant b/c their aggression knows no bounds. We must resolve to defend ourselves at all costs.

To borrow one of the ATOT armchair hawk analogies . . . NK is indeed a rattlesnake. They are not explicitly out to do us harm but they are not friendly. They can't be tamed. Onced backed into a corner they have two options . . . rattle or strike. Your best bet is to toss them some Viper Kibble and back away slowly. A second option is to employ another viper to do him in; namely China or Russia.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,708
6,198
126
I just don't know how the fundamentalist Christian Right are going to react to etech's situational ethics thingi. I thought right was right and wrong was wrong and you absolutley require the same approach to each. Golly, imagine negotiating with one of the Devil's axis and going to war with the other. The Devil must be chuckling. I thought moral ambivilance based on calculation of personal loss was an anathema.

A problem I see is that if Bush's axis of evil you're with us or against us, we will strike you in your caves etc talk leads to war in Korea, he will loose the next election, but if it leads to a big symbolic and quick victory in Iraq with all the booty oil it will lead to an election victory. Just something to think about when you scratch your heads to explain things. With polititions, what they do usually involves getting reelected for some reason. You often hear them refer to themselves as having character for just those same reasons.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
I am not aware of military preparations but I am willing to bet that contingency plans are being dusted off, updated and prepared continuously. Is there something specific you want the US to do that it already isn't?

In March 2002 over 300K SK troops, 17K SK-based US forces, and US troops from Japan and Guam participated in exercises simulating an attack from North Korea. The exercise was notable b/c it combined two smaller operations that typically take place every 6mo. It also followed Bush's Axis of Evil proclamation and the overhyped release of US options to use nuclear weapons against hostile states . . . a list which included North Korea. NK bitched and moaned but we basically ignored them . . . until October.

As I've said many times . . . you can pretend events happen in an ATOT sequence and have no geopolitical context but you would be horribly mistaken.

Peace on the peninsula will come when everybody in the neighborhood (particularly North Korea) relaxes their respective sphincters. As for the US, Bush could consider STFU, put a leash on his pit pulls (Rumsfeld and Where in the World is Dick Cheney), and let Powell work the diplomatic circuit.
 
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