Bush wants Religous Groups to operate social programs

[Capn]

First of all, if you keep pointing to satanic soup kitchens and fornication counseling centers, you'll need to provide real examples of these places operating and having successes in the community. I've never heard of them, doesn't mean they don't exist, but I highly doubt there are a number of these places.

I agree that there should be no difference in evaluating an organization for funding whether they be christian, jewish, buddhist, or whatever. As long as the right kind of strings are attached to the money and the proper oversight is in place, I think the plan is a good idea.

 

[Tripleshot]

>>Your opinion just doesn't hold up to fact.<<

And yours does? LOL

I see the problem here. You have a pattern of lumping all peoples posts in italics that you wish to take issue with. By doing so,you make it appear you are talking to only the first. I saw your pattern and retracted the request you play on the freeway.


Just drink some drano. You will feel better in the morning.

 

[Doboji]

How about charity organizations of the Church of Scientology?

Furthermore your missing the point.... wouldn't it bother you if one of the organizations I mentioned were recieving federal aid?... Well I feel about Christian organizations the way some people feel about Satanic organizations. And funding organizations who advocate what some people deem ,immoral, indecent ideas(christianity) with our tax money is ludicrous. You cannot help but discriminate... because we are funding organizations who have an agenda to satisfy the requirements of their particular moral code. A moral code that I and others may not only disagree with but may be absolutely opposed to.

-Max

 

[Doboji]

Point blank.... I don't want my tax money to be spent helping Christian cultists spread their trash.

-Max

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< Unless you have worked there you can't understand. >>



There you go making assumptions again.... I have done charity work in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. >>



I'm not assuming you are. I never said you didn't do charity work, I simply said that if you had not done charity work at a religious organization you can only speculate at the level of &quot;influence&quot; and I stand by it.

And what have you found? Have you worked at charities run by a church or other religious group?
Have people been decriminated against? And if so how?




<< It's easy to simply say walk away when it's someone else... but try being excluded over and over and over again.... and see if you don't feel discriminated against.... imagine if they played religious hymns at the DMV or at voting booths... unacceptable... seperation from church or state saves people from having to put up with this kind of hassle. >>



Everyone one in their life has been excluded from something, thats not a valid argument.

If you dont listen to the music no one belittles you or makes you feel bad, they respect your decision. Thats Completely different from exclusion. You are not asked to move or told to leave.

Your analogy at the DMV is extremely lacking.
#1 they are doing a good job
#2 there is no other group doing a better job therefore there is no alternative.



<< seperation from church or state saves people from having to put up with this kind of hassle. >>



You seem to think that people who want a better alternative automatically think religion. If it was a bunch of people who liked to celebrate spam and they did the best charity work, they should get the money, period.

And is it Separate.

#1 No one asks what religion you are
#2 There is no prequalification to getting your meal
#3 You can come and go as you please

And since they are doing better than the governement programs regardless of what you think, they must be doing something right.



<< Unless you've been discrimated against in this manner you can't understand just how big a deal it is. >>



Dont assume. I have been descriminated many times over and that has zero to do with these groups.

Can you give me one example of these charity groups descriminating against anyone? Up to now its all speculation on your part.

 

[Capn]

I don't feel that the U.S. should decide protocol based upon your own personal prejudices. For what it's worth I'm sorry you have such a poor opinion of christianity to equate it to the church of Satan, however you must also realize that this is an opinion far outside of the norm.

 

[Texmaster]

<< >>Your opinion just doesn't hold up to fact.<<

And yours does? LOL

I see the problem here. You have a pattern of lumping all peoples posts in italics that you wish to take issue with. By doing so,you make it appear you are talking to only the first. I saw your pattern and retracted the request you play on the freeway. >>






Yes it does, sorry to burst your bubble. As I have stated before and I'll state it again,

#1 Government programs have been wasting money and doing a poor job for years.
#2 Religious charity organization have been doing a better job with less money for years.

And unless you can dispute that with some form of fact your arugment is null.

Knowing these 2 facts it doesn't take a lot thought as to who should get the money.



<< Just drink some drano. You will feel better in the morning. >>



Still living up to that high 2nd grade maturity standard I see.

 

[Texmaster]

<< How about charity organizations of the Church of Scientology?

Furthermore your missing the point.... wouldn't it bother you if one of the organizations I mentioned were recieving federal aid?... Well I feel about Christian organizations the way some people feel about Satanic organizations. And funding organizations who advocate what some people deem ,immoral, indecent ideas(christianity) with our tax money is ludicrous. You cannot help but discriminate... because we are funding organizations who have an agenda to satisfy the requirements of their particular moral code. A moral code that I and others may not only disagree with but may be absolutely opposed to.

-Max >>



I'm still waiting for the answer to my question. You claim to have worked in charity organizations. Have you ever worked for one run by a religious organization christian or otherwise?

If you haven't you cant even begin to understand what &quot;influence&quot; the people are exposed to.

And yes you can make it though the day without descriminating strange as it may seem to you.

You are spouting a lot of garbage with nothing to back it up with. Bottom line, these organzations on Bush's list are not know to descriminate or force anyone to believe what they believe. In fact the Christian religion that you so hate was based on inclusion not exclusion when it comes to charity and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

You may not like their politics but you cannot debate their results in charity work.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Point blank.... I don't want my tax money to be spent helping Christian cultists spread their trash.

-Max >>



You are simply a Christian hater and thats fine, but dont deny the rights of Muslim or Jewish charities their right to money to help the needly no matter how descriminating you are.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Oh I see you are including televangelists who only ask to give to the church. They dont actually run anything like a hospital or soup kitchen. >>

Yes they did. In fact Jim Jones was never a Televangelist and he was an honest man of the cloth until money and power corrupted him.Who's to say this won't happen many fold when some of these Religous Groups start getting the Federal Dollars rolling in?

 

[Doboji]

Tex-



<< #1 Government programs have been wasting money and doing a poor job for years.

#2 Religious charity organization have been doing a better job with less money for years. >>



How on earth do you state these as facts... the terms &quot;waste&quot; and &quot;better&quot; are subjective. Where are your numbers?... These are opinions... English lesson: Apples are better than Oranges... is an opinion. So is.. Cats are better than dogs. Saying Apples are bigger than cherries is a fact. And we know it's a fact because when you compare the mass of an apple to the mass of a cherry... we find it is smaller.

CAPN again you're missing the point... I'm being extreme... I don't see the Church of Satan as being all that bad.... nor do I see the Church of Jesus as being all that bad. The point is... the federal government gives morality based organizations the funding to influence people according to what THEY believe is proper morality. This is unacceptable. Our country is founded on the idea that we are free to believe whatever we choose without being influenced by the government. When the government begins funding organizations that influence our beliefs, it is then indirectly influencing our religious beliefs.
This faith based idea is in direct violation our constitution.. and breaks all the principals of freedom that the United States was founded on.

-Max

 

[Red Dawn]

<< You are simply a Christian hater and thats fine, but dont deny the rights of Muslim or Jewish charities their right to money to help the needly no matter how descriminating you are. >>

Why not? It's not their money and they sure as hell aren't entitled to it.

 

[Doboji]

<< Why not? It's not their money and they sure as hell aren't entitled to it. >>

EDIT: Whoops forgot the quotes

That's right. I don't want to spend my tax money helping the Jews or the Muslims spread their crap either....

It is absolutely unacceptible and unconstitutional for the State to fund the Church... and thats exactly what we're talking about doing.

-Max

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< Oh I see you are including televangelists who only ask to give to the church. They dont actually run anything like a hospital or soup kitchen. >>

Yes they did. In fact Jim Jones was never a Televangelist and he was an honest man of the cloth until money and power corrupted him.Who's to say this won't happen many fold when some of these Religous Groups start getting the Federal Dollars rolling in? >>



Its a great question and there are people who will be cheaking on these organziations for that type of corruption. So why not try it?

 

[yata]

Why Bush keeps on pulling this sort of stuff is so obvious. It's not about right or wrong. If this is what he calls compassionate then there is no pity, other than the fervent supporters rationalizing among here. It is our money, the people's money, to begin with. The president trivializes it and make it seem like a game of Monopoly. Whose choice is it to discriminate? No one's doing that and Bush pull this statement out of his hat. His programs are guaranteeing the livelihood of these charities without any responsibility. Faith-based is simply put, blind-based. Charities function or cease to depends on people's willingness to give plus the group's own management prowess. With this , dubious taxcuts follows by a more puzzling social scheme. Now if this ever goes into effect, who'll get the majority of those contracts? Those who share the government official's religious denomination? Catholic? Lutheran? Scientology? Now that's discrimination. The separation between church and state is inarguable, and I don't have to mention how religion justifies people to do wacko things.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< So why not try it? >>

Because I don't believe in any of these Religions or Religious organizations and I don't want my tax dollars going to them. If you do then fine, donate your own money.

 

[yata]

Texmaster,
If Christian charities are doing so well, why do they need government's money? I raise my drano to you.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Tex-



<< #1 Government programs have been wasting money and doing a poor job for years.

#2 Religious charity organization have been doing a better job with less money for years. >>



How on earth do you state these as facts... the terms &quot;waste&quot; and &quot;better&quot; are subjective. Where are your numbers?... These are opinions... English lesson: Apples are better than Oranges... is an opinion. So is.. Cats are better than dogs. Saying Apples are bigger than cherries is a fact. And we know it's a fact because when you compare the mass of an apple to the mass of a cherry... we find it is smaller. >>



Its not an opinions when its base on fact. Why do you think they are getting so much attention? Because they do a better job. If they didn't that would be all over the news

You keep asking for proof, how about Al Gore's suppport?

<<<<Speaking at a Salvation Army site in Atlanta, the vice president said federal law allowing churches, synagogues, mosques and other faith-based groups to use grants to provide welfare services should be expanded to address such problems as drug abuse, homelessness and youth violence.

&quot;Let us put the solutions that faith-based organizations are pioneering at the very heart of our national strategy for building a better, more just nation,&quot; Gore said in a text of his prepared remarks. &quot;Many people in the faith-based organizations want their role to be not exemplary, but strategic; not to be merely a shining anecdote in a pretty story told by a politician, but to have a seat at the national table when decisions get made. Today I give you this pledge: If you elect me president, the voices of faith-based organizations will be integral to the policies set forth in my administration.&quot;

This &quot;new partnership,&quot; as Gore called it, should be &quot;accompanied by clear and strict safeguards,&quot; he said. They include, Gore said:

-- No government promotion of a specific religious view.
-- A prohibition on &quot;direct proselytizing.&quot;
-- A secular alternative.

&quot;I believe strongly in the separation of church and state,&quot; Gore said more than once. &quot;But freedom of religion need not mean freedom from religion. There is a better way. >>>>

Al Gore, Bush's arch rival support the same plan. Do you think he would if the numbers were not there?

And if you want proof of an organization how about Habitat for Humanity? They are faith based.

Now I ask you, do you have a shred of evidence that faith based groups do NOT do better than government programs?



<< CAPN again you're missing the point... I'm being extreme... I don't see the Church of Satan as being all that bad.... nor do I see the Church of Jesus as being all that bad. The point is... the federal government gives morality based organizations the funding to influence people according to what THEY believe is proper morality. This is unacceptable. Our country is founded on the idea that we are free to believe whatever we choose without being influenced by the government. When the government begins funding organizations that influence our beliefs, it is then indirectly influencing our religious beliefs.
This faith based idea is in direct violation our constitution.. and breaks all the principals of freedom that the United States was founded on. >>



I'll ask it again, do you have a shred of evidence that they are knowingly influencing people towards a particaular religion? Any proof at all? These organizations have been around a long time and if they did influence others as you claim, you ought to be able to find some sort of proof around it.

 

[351Cleveland]

Doboji-

I know you know this, but it is not the IDEAS they are funding, it is the program (building homes, feeding poor, etc.). I also know you ahve heard the words, &quot;Doing the right thing for the wrong reason.&quot; Who cares what their intentions are as long as the results are positive? Let satanics feed the poor (good luck finding that BTW), let muslims build houses, see if I care. I am happy to see these deeds being done and the needs of people being met, as long as they do not break the rules. Even if the people doing these deeds do not know it (even if they are satanists), God is working through them... THAT is my reasoning. You are fond of preaching tolerance and acceptance, but when it gets right down to it, you draw lines just like everyone else. Your lines jsut happen to be around religion.

Red Dawn-

I sympathize. I do not want the government giving my money to other organizations, regardless of the organization, either. Hell, I didn't want them to take it in the FIRST place. That said, I would rather see it spent this way than on, say, studying the effects of bovine methane emmissions.

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< So why not try it? >>

Because I don't believe in any of these Religions or Religious organizations and I don't want my tax dollars going to them. If you do then fine, donate your own money. >>



I want the best solution period. If that means giving to green bay packer fans, (and there isn't a more vile group than them) are doing the best job then thats where the money should go, period.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Why Bush keeps on pulling this sort of stuff is so obvious. It's not about right or wrong. If this is what he calls compassionate then there is no pity, other than the fervent supporters rationalizing among here. It is our money, the people's money, to begin with. The president trivializes it and make it seem like a game of Monopoly. Whose choice is it to discriminate? No one's doing that and Bush pull this statement out of his hat. His programs are guaranteeing the livelihood of these charities without any responsibility. Faith-based is simply put, blind-based. Charities function or cease to depends on people's willingness to give plus the group's own management prowess. With this , dubious taxcuts follows by a more puzzling social scheme. Now if this ever goes into effect, who'll get the majority of those contracts? Those who share the government official's religious denomination? Catholic? Lutheran? Scientology? Now that's discrimination. The separation between church and state is inarguable, and I don't have to mention how religion justifies people to do wacko things. >>



All opinion no fact.

Do you have any evidence that what you are predicting would happen? These groups have been around for a long time. Where do you get off saying there is no responsibilty?

And the governemnt refusing to give money to programs that work because they have religious members IS descrimination.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< If that means giving to green bay packer fans, (and there isn't a more vile group than them) >>

That proves that you are muddle minded. It's a fact that the &quot;Cowboys&quot; fans are the scum of the earth.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Texmaster,
If Christian charities are doing so well, why do they need government's money? I raise my drano to you. >>



Because they can do more with more money.

And your next question?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< And the governemnt refusing to give money to programs that work because they have religious members IS descrimination. >>

Why's that?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Because they can do more with more money. >>

Like preach their religion in return for food and shelter