Bush's response is not adequate

[BBond]

It appears that the money has been moved in the president?s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that?s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can?t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.

-- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004.

Link

If that's Bush bashing then I suggest that Bush needs to be bashed chicken. In the face of one of the greatest tragedies in American history that dumb son of a bitch has National Guard troops and equipment stationed in IRAQ and money that was targeted for critical levee work in New Orleans.

What a complete fvck up. And what a complete trolling lackey you are chicken.

I'd say you should be ashamed but apparently you lack the humanity to be ashamed of the lowlife lying prick whose a$$ you can't seem to keep your lips off of.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Activating and moving troops into the bases in texas, hell activating the general army forces that still remain in texas and airlifting them into the area could have been accomplished in less than 48 hours. You act as if they couldn't have kept any troops within a 1000 miles when they could have setup a staging area less than 500 miles away in texas and it would have been unaffected.

You can activate 100,000 soldiers, but how exactly do you move them into a city with no remaining infrastructure.

Can't airlift them in as much of the area is flooded. Would have to convoy them in, but once you get them into the city then what...you can't stage them in the city due to the flooding, yet soldiers need to eat and sleep too.

Only option would be to stage them outside the city, which would require transporting the soldiers into and out of the city on a daily basis...which is kind of hard to do given the widespread flooding.

You once claimed to have been in the Military.
Don't you have an inkling of what an Army can do to provide vehicles and services ?
We set up functional camps in 'Nam in a matter of hours where there was nothing except enemy troops and rice paddies.
You can do wonders with Soldiers, Helicopters, and Tents.
Dustoff moved wounded to MASH in less than a hour.
Surely someone remembers how to lift people to safety, even when under fire - daily routine for Jollies.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Activating and moving troops into the bases in texas, hell activating the general army forces that still remain in texas and airlifting them into the area could have been accomplished in less than 48 hours. You act as if they couldn't have kept any troops within a 1000 miles when they could have setup a staging area less than 500 miles away in texas and it would have been unaffected.

You can activate 100,000 soldiers, but how exactly do you move them into a city with no remaining infrastructure.

Can't airlift them in as much of the area is flooded. Would have to convoy them in, but once you get them into the city then what...you can't stage them in the city due to the flooding, yet soldiers need to eat and sleep too.

Only option would be to stage them outside the city, which would require transporting the soldiers into and out of the city on a daily basis...which is kind of hard to do given the widespread flooding.

There are plenty of dry areas.

Poydras is dry in the CBD. There's a live webcam from the building in which DirectNIC is operating pointed out into the street.

There are roadways out of the city. How else have 5,000 made it to the Astrodome from the Superdome since last night?

 

[Starbuck1975]

You once claimed to have been in the Military. Don't you have an inkling of what an Army can do to provide vehicles and services ? We set up functional camps in 'Nam in a matter of hours where there was nothing except enemy troops and rice paddies.
You can do wonders with Soldiers, Helicopters, and Tents. Dustoff moved wounded to MASH in less than a hour. Surely someone remembers how to lift people to safety, even when under fire - daily routine for Jollies.

It is not so much a question of what the Army can do, but rather having the necessary equipment in vicinity to provide such relief services.

We are dealing with 1000s of refugees...the Army's entire inventory of lift assets would not be enough for a relief effort of this magnitude...that, and the Army does not maintain substantial aviation assets at the National Guard level, at least not to the extent that would be required to support a relief effort of this magnitude.

The Army is quite capable of establishing and sustaining operations on a moment's notice, but this requires the necessary equipment that provide the logistical backdrop for said operations.

Also, the cases you cited are nothing compared to what is going on in New Orleans.

Refugees by the thousands...no avenues of approach or maneuver corridors into or out of the city...widespread flooding...limited dry land or even buildings that can be turned into command centers, barracks and motor pools.

To get into and out of the city, the Army would use deuce and a halfs or HMMWVs...while these vehicles have impressive terrain crossing capabilities, they can't traverse 20ft deep water.

There are plenty of dry areas.

Also quite isolated, and also quite dangerous to build any relief or command centers on until the levees are stopped.

There are roadways out of the city. How else have 5,000 made it to the Astrodome from the Superdome since last night?

Yes but the challenge is once you get into the city...there may be a few avenues in and out, but with 80% of the city underwater as of the last report I heard last night, it kind of limits maneuver options.

 

[conjur]

http://old.mises.org:88/NO2

There's quite a bit of room there to setup a command center. They could use the same building that DirectNIC is in. They're on the 27th floor and are providing internet access out. They have diesel-powered generators. There are plenty of places to setup show.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
It is not so much a question of what the Army can do, but rather having the necessary equipment in vicinity to provide such relief services.

So if you don't have enough to do it within 24 hours you instead only provide a dozen choppers and let it go at that?

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
We are dealing with 1000s of refugees...the Army's entire inventory of lift assets would not be enough for a relief effort of this magnitude...that, and the Army does not maintain substantial aviation assets at the National Guard level, at least not to the extent that would be required to support a relief effort of this magnitude.

So if you don't have enough to handle it all immediately the solution is to provide almost nothing?

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Army is quite capable of establishing and sustaining operations on a moment's notice, but this requires the necessary equipment that provide the logistical backdrop for said operations.

You are saying we don't have any resources and everything that could possibly be mobilized has been? In other words, one C-17, one C-30, half a dozen swift boats, and a dozen black hawks is all the millitary equipment that is available in the whole country?

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Also, the cases you cited are nothing compared to what is going on in New Orleans.

Refugees by the thousands...no avenues of approach or maneuver corridors into or out of the city...widespread flooding...limited dry land or even buildings that can be turned into command centers, barracks and motor pools.

So your contention is that every resource the country and millitary has available is being used?

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
To get into and out of the city, the Army would use deuce and a halfs or HMMWVs...while these vehicles have impressive terrain crossing capabilities, they can't traverse 20ft deep water.

So you are saying our millitary has no amphibious capabilities?

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

There are plenty of dry areas.

Also quite isolated, and also quite dangerous to build any relief or command centers on until the levees are stopped.

The entire international airport is available, quite a large chuck of real estate, large terminal facilities, runways already contructed.

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Yes but the challenge is once you get into the city...there may be a few avenues in and out, but with 80% of the city underwater as of the last report I heard last night, it kind of limits maneuver options.

No amphibous capabilities and no airlift capabilities either?

 

[Starbuck1975]

So if you don't have enough to do it within 24 hours you instead only provide a dozen choppers and let it go at that? So if you don't have enough to handle it all immediately the solution is to provide almost nothing? You are saying we don't have any resources and everything that could possibly be mobilized has been? In other words, one C-17, one C-30, half a dozen swift boats, and a dozen black hawks is all the millitary equipment that is available in the whole country? So your contention is that every resource the country and millitary has available is being used? So you are saying our millitary has no amphibious capabilities? No amphibous capabilities and no airlift capabilities either?

I didn't say any of those things.

The military across the various brancheshas all of those capabilities and then some...unfortunately for the people of New Orleans, these military assets are not all staged in the southwest on a permanent basis in preparation for the remote possibility that the levees protecting the city will fail during the aftermath of category 5 hurricane.

The government is in the process of moving military equipment and personnel into the devastation zone...this response was within a 24 hour window of the levees failing...I heard a report last night that one, possibly two, Navy carrier groups are deploying to the Gulf...the Army is transporting what amphibious capabilities it has into the region...the Navy and Air Force are deploying lift assets to augment the National Guard Army Aviation assets already deployed.

 

[conjur]

That's true. The airport is quite ok (runway is even open)

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

You once claimed to have been in the Military. Don't you have an inkling of what an Army can do to provide vehicles and services ? We set up functional camps in 'Nam in a matter of hours where there was nothing except enemy troops and rice paddies.
You can do wonders with Soldiers, Helicopters, and Tents. Dustoff moved wounded to MASH in less than a hour. Surely someone remembers how to lift people to safety, even when under fire - daily routine for Jollies.

It is not so much a question of what the Army can do, but rather having the necessary equipment in vicinity to provide such relief services.

We are dealing with 1000s of refugees...the Army's entire inventory of lift assets would not be enough for a relief effort of this magnitude...that, and the Army does not maintain substantial aviation assets at the National Guard level, at least not to the extent that would be required to support a relief effort of this magnitude.

The Army is quite capable of establishing and sustaining operations on a moment's notice, but this requires the necessary equipment that provide the logistical backdrop for said operations.

Also, the cases you cited are nothing compared to what is going on in New Orleans.

Refugees by the thousands...no avenues of approach or maneuver corridors into or out of the city...widespread flooding...limited dry land or even buildings that can be turned into command centers, barracks and motor pools.

To get into and out of the city, the Army would use deuce and a halfs or HMMWVs...while these vehicles have impressive terrain crossing capabilities, they can't traverse 20ft deep water.

OK take it from there:

Comm gear, command centers, triage points, transit dispersion centers.

I know for a fact the there are 3 Army bases under 1,000 miles from this Ground Zero.
1st Cav from Fort Hood on the Western front near Lafayette, 101st from Fort Campbell due North set up near Jackson, MS, & 3rd ID from Fort Stewart, Ga - or others - can stage from the East from Pensacola. 3,500 troops from each base is 7,500 responders.
Toss in whatever might be at other bases on a backup basis & you got 10,000.
This is no mystery, and could have been staged and ready to roll on Monday morning awaiting the 'Go' around Noon.
Interm dispatch points set up along the way to relay communications and dispatch emergency supplies, standard daily Military routine practice.
We've done just that throughout Iraq for our boys for 2 1/2 years now, so it ain't new.

We have a 100 mile swath of destruction to deal with from Atlantis to Mobile Bay and the
chrisis damage footprint extends a good 10 miles inland from the coast.

More than 3 million affected, local and State level response cannot cope with the vastness of this, Federal has to be the fall-back.

Should have been there - could have been done.

 

[BBond]

The reason Bush isn't doing any of the things that the military could be doing is indeed because the equipment and manpower are definitely NOT in the region. THEY ARE IN IRAQ.

Have you ever heard the old saying about not looking for trouble because more than enough trouble will find you? Well, Bush is learning that right now. He went looking for trouble in Iraq and now trouble has found him along the Gulf Coast. His arrogance and stupidity have compounded the problems because he insisted on an unnecessary, illegal, immoral invasion based on nothing but a pack of lies.

Now Katrina has turned New Orleans into Fallujah.

What's next, George? Another speech at some military base? Why don't you get on Marine One and visit the people you've abandoned in New Orleans -- give them a speech and let them tell you what they think about it rather than a bunch of troops under the watchful eyes of their COs?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Should have been there - could have been done.

You are talking about active duty units, which rarely if ever deploy for federal emergencies...not their mission, nor are they equipped for such a mission.

1st Cav from Fort Hood on the Western front near Lafayette, 101st from Fort Campbell due North set up near Jackson, MS, & 3rd ID from Fort Stewart, Ga - or others - can stage from the East from Pensacola. 3,500 troops from each base is 7,500 responders. Toss in whatever might be at other bases on a backup basis & you got 10,000.

The 101st are probably the only unit of the ones you mentioned who are rapid responders, with the organic equipment (airlift, light vehicles) necessary for such operations.

1st Cav, despite being cavalry, are still pretty heavy...their organic equipment...Apaches, Kiowas, Bradley's and M1 tanks...not really helpful for relief activities.

Now if you want to talk boots on the ground, then yes we could have tapped into these active units...but why task active duty units, who have another mission entirely, when you have adequate National Guard soldiers to perform the mission, and with the equipment organic to their units to perform such missions?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Should have been there - could have been done.

You are talking about active duty units, which rarely if ever deploy for federal emergencies...not their mission, nor are they equipped for such a mission.

1st Cav from Fort Hood on the Western front near Lafayette, 101st from Fort Campbell due North set up near Jackson, MS, & 3rd ID from Fort Stewart, Ga - or others - can stage from the East from Pensacola. 3,500 troops from each base is 7,500 responders. Toss in whatever might be at other bases on a backup basis & you got 10,000.

The 101st are probably the only unit of the ones you mentioned who are rapid responders, with the organic equipment (airlift, light vehicles) necessary for such operations.

1st Cav, despite being cavalry, are still pretty heavy...their organic equipment...Apaches, Kiowas, Bradley's and M1 tanks...not really helpful for relief activities.

Now if you want to talk boots on the ground, then yes we could have tapped into these active units...but why task active duty units, who have another mission entirely, when you have adequate National Guard soldiers to perform the mission, and with the equipment organic to their units to perform such missions?

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?.

If you can't figure it out for yourself, the active duty mission that the Guard has been "tapped into" for is IRAQ.

 

[CaptnKirk]

The reason Bush isn't doing any of the things that the military could be doing is indeed because the equipment and manpower are definitely NOT in the region. THEY ARE IN IRAQ

Actually we have large standing forces in Ft. Hood and Ft. Campbell that are getting ready for return, and this would be like a giant
training exercise for them to shake down their new and rebuilt equipment before their launch to the ME.

They might not even be shot at as much, no IED's reported in Atlantis yet.

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?

Because they're 'there', getting ready, and because we 'can'.
They'd be thrilled to help, bitch about it - yes, but they could easily do it.
More than one Army outfit can fly a C'Hook.
Apaches have TADS/PNVS - they see in the dark.
Beats the hell out of doing nothing . . and the clock is ticking as the situation degrades.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: conjur
That's true. The airport is quite ok (runway is even open)

Huh?

 

[conjur]

<ahem>

Airlines resume flights after Katrina
Emergency ops only at New Orleans, Gulfport-Biloxi
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.a...1B4-A210-58A7C3E5AD8B%7D&siteid=google

But Mississippi's Gulfport-Biloxi International Airport and Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport remained open only for emergency flights, with one runway each.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?. If you can't figure it out for yourself, the active duty mission that the Guard has been "tapped into" for is IRAQ.

The troops strengths of the National Guard units in the states hit by Katrina are all over 70%.

And one of the missions of the National Guard is to deploy for active duty missions when the need arises. The National Guard also provides for domestic security and relief aid when necessary...there are adequate National Guard troops, both available within the region and elsewhere, necessary to perform this relief mission.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?. If you can't figure it out for yourself, the active duty mission that the Guard has been "tapped into" for is IRAQ.

The troops strengths of the National Guard units in the states hit by Katrina are all over 70%.

And one of the missions of the National Guard is to deploy for active duty missions when the need arises. The National Guard also provides for domestic security and relief aid when necessary...there are adequate National Guard troops, both available within the region and elsewhere, necessary to perform this relief mission.

LIE

Troop strength is sixty percent but that's really inconsequential since most of their equipment is in...IRAQ.

If they have so many troops and so much equipment available why has New Orleans sat for FOUR DAYS after Katrina without so much as a single food or water drop?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: conjur
That's true. The airport is quite ok (runway is even open)

Huh?

I brought it up before about ATCs and electric for the airport. conjur went mute on that point.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?. If you can't figure it out for yourself, the active duty mission that the Guard has been "tapped into" for is IRAQ.

The troops strengths of the National Guard units in the states hit by Katrina are all over 70%.

And one of the missions of the National Guard is to deploy for active duty missions when the need arises. The National Guard also provides for domestic security and relief aid when necessary...there are adequate National Guard troops, both available within the region and elsewhere, necessary to perform this relief mission.

LIE

Troop strength is sixty percent but that's really inconsequential since most of their equipment is in...IRAQ.

Prove it.

 

[CaptnKirk]

You chickenhawks don't seem to even have a clue as to what the Militarys equipment is capable of doing in unimproved or compromised environments.

Lack of runway lights are a minor irritant.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?. If you can't figure it out for yourself, the active duty mission that the Guard has been "tapped into" for is IRAQ.

The troops strengths of the National Guard units in the states hit by Katrina are all over 70%.

And one of the missions of the National Guard is to deploy for active duty missions when the need arises. The National Guard also provides for domestic security and relief aid when necessary...there are adequate National Guard troops, both available within the region and elsewhere, necessary to perform this relief mission.

LIE

Troop strength is sixty percent but that's really inconsequential since most of their equipment is in...IRAQ.

Prove it.

Read any of the myriad news stories that repeat the sixty percent figure.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
You chickenhawks don't seem to even have a clue as to what the Militarys equipment is capable of doing in unimproved or compromised environments.

Lack of runway lights are a minor irritant.

Really? I spent the majority of my time in the Air Force supporting the AF and Army fly boys and working in ATC towers as well as in tents and improvised structures on maneuvers and missions. I bet I have a better idea than you what the capabilities are.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Why tap into National Guard, who have another mission entirely, when you have active duty military to perform the mission?. If you can't figure it out for yourself, the active duty mission that the Guard has been "tapped into" for is IRAQ.

The troops strengths of the National Guard units in the states hit by Katrina are all over 70%.

And one of the missions of the National Guard is to deploy for active duty missions when the need arises. The National Guard also provides for domestic security and relief aid when necessary...there are adequate National Guard troops, both available within the region and elsewhere, necessary to perform this relief mission.

LIE

Troop strength is sixty percent but that's really inconsequential since most of their equipment is in...IRAQ.

Prove it.

Read any of the myriad news stories that repeat the sixty percent figure.

That doesn't prove your claim.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I didn't say any of those things.

So if you aren't arguing that everything that could have been deployed was, then in fact you are saying that response that has been provided is not everything that could be done.

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The military across the various brancheshas all of those capabilities and then some...unfortunately for the people of New Orleans, these military assets are not all staged in the southwest on a permanent basis in preparation for the remote possibility that the levees protecting the city will fail during the aftermath of category 5 hurricane.

So again, you appear to be saying that this country does not have the assets to move even 10,000 troops into NO within 24 hours? We do not have the airlift or amphibious capability to provide such a thing?

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The government is in the process of moving military equipment and personnel into the devastation zone...this response was within a 24 hour window of the levees failing...I heard a report last night that one, possibly two, Navy carrier groups are deploying to the Gulf...the Army is transporting what amphibious capabilities it has into the region...the Navy and Air Force are deploying lift assets to augment the National Guard Army Aviation assets already deployed.

The ships that were dispatched were given orders wednesday, according to news reports and have probably still not left port. Why weren't they under sail saturday? This hurricane didn't sneak up on anyone.

 

[TRUMPHENT]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

So if you don't have enough to do it within 24 hours you instead only provide a dozen choppers and let it go at that? So if you don't have enough to handle it all immediately the solution is to provide almost nothing? You are saying we don't have any resources and everything that could possibly be mobilized has been? In other words, one C-17, one C-30, half a dozen swift boats, and a dozen black hawks is all the millitary equipment that is available in the whole country? So your contention is that every resource the country and millitary has available is being used? So you are saying our millitary has no amphibious capabilities? No amphibous capabilities and no airlift capabilities either?

I didn't say any of those things.

The military across the various brancheshas all of those capabilities and then some...unfortunately for the people of New Orleans, these military assets are not all staged in the southwest on a permanent basis in preparation for the remote possibility that the levees protecting the city will fail during the aftermath of category 5 hurricane.

The government is in the process of moving military equipment and personnel into the devastation zone...this response was within a 24 hour window of the levees failing...I heard a report last night that one, possibly two, Navy carrier groups are deploying to the Gulf...the Army is transporting what amphibious capabilities it has into the region...the Navy and Air Force are deploying lift assets to augment the National Guard Army Aviation assets already deployed.

Yep, prolly so. What will happen next is that the supplies will start to pile up and have nowhere to go because the road network is so damaged.

Carnival Cruiselines, HQ'd in Miami has been approached to provide ships that can temporarilly house some of the victims. They are probably stripping the ships of nonessential and luxury fixtures as we speak.

The Army has or least had more shallow draft craft than any other service. At least that isn't one asset that has been drawn down by the committment to Iraq.

The first Bush appointee that I can't dispute is Chertoff. As a replacement for Tom Ridge, Bush has finally done something in his two terms that would be considered productive.

Chertoff, immediately after his appointment, conducted a drill to test "First Responder" effectiveness to failure. Ridge never did something like that. New Orleans may not have participated in that exercise but the lessons and intent were there.

Chertoff may be the random walk through the dartboard, he strikes me as being the right man at the right time for such a disaster inspite of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/neocons et al.

New Orleans is now one gigantic toxic wasteland. Unless and until the levees are repaired and water is pumped out, it will remain so. Even then, the cleanup will still dwarf any Superfund site in the country.