'Buy American' - Sparks Fly

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,354
11,725
136
http://finance.yahoo.com/banki...geting/article/106511/'Buy-American'-Sparks-Fly

A stimulus provision that bans the purchase of foreign construction materials for public works projects gets jeers from economists and European trade interests.

A debate is brewing at home and abroad over an economic stimulus measure that would require materials used in the program's infrastructure projects to be purchased from American companies.

In the $819 billion House bill passed Wednesday, the so-called "Buy American" provision would, with some notable exceptions, ensure that only U.S.-produced iron and steel be used for construction. It expands on a 76-year-old federal law. The Senate, which is likely to take up stimulus next week, would go even further, effectively requiring that any products and equipment be American-made.

"The Buy American provision will help stimulate our own economy," Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who wrote the provision, told CNNMoney. "When taxpayer dollars are used, we should urge that money to support the things produced here at home."

The plan is already drawing opposition. The European Commission on Thursday said it might challenge such a move if it were signed into law. The proposal also appears to fly in the face of a G-20 agreement reached in November, when world leaders decided not to raise new trade barriers in 2009.

Furthermore, many economists argue that a Buy American provision could actually backfire, slowing economic growth instead of helping expand the American job market.

"It's not a good time to initiate protectionist measures in any shape or form," said Kurt Karl, head of economic research at Swiss Re. "It hurts growth, because if you force one side to go with domestic production only, then that precludes them from getting less expensive materials from overseas."

The economy is already reeling, and will soon enter the 15th month of a recession. Economists expect a Commerce Department report to show the U.S. economy shrank by 5.4% in the fourth quarter, the biggest decline in 26 years. But some think holding back trade could exacerbate the problem.

A major drop in trade could cause a 1% drop in gross domestic product, according to Karl.

"We believe it invites reciprocal restrictions on U.S. exports," said Peter O'Toole, a spokesman for General Electric, which gets half its of revenue from abroad. "When you take competition out, it drives prices up. We're in a globalized world - we can't turn back the clock."

Previous efforts have misfired. For instance, from 2001 to 2003, the Bush administration imposed several so-called "safeguard" tariffs on certain steel products from various foreign countries in an attempt to prevent U.S. steel mills from closing.

Foreign steel makers found other markets during that span, namely China and Middle Eastern countries. When U.S. demand for steel heated up again in 2004, steel prices skyrocketed by 48% in a year, according to the Labor Department.

Also, Buy American would set a bad precedent, say many experts, arguing that protectionist ideology of the pre-Great Depression era exacerbated the economic calamity of the 1930s.

"In the Depression, we had anti-trade policies that aggravated the global recession," said Karl. "It's not a good idea from an economic or stability view, but politically, many congressmen still see it as appealing."

Safeguards to Protect Taxpayers, Growth

A host of politicians believe the Buy American provisions have appropriate safeguards to ensure stimulus spending is not wasted on expensive materials and the U.S. economy does not suffer long-term consequences.

For instance, the bills both stipulate that if construction costs would rise by 25% or more due to the purchase of American-made materials, contractors could receive a waiver to purchase foreign materials. The bills also allow for a waiver if buying American is not in the best interest of the economy or taxpayers.

"There is a broad public interest waiver, that ensures that if something is impractical or impossible, the administration can waive it easily," said Dorgan. "But to the extent we can, if we're going to use steel and other construction products, we want to buy ones that are manufactured here."

Rep. Peter Visclosky, D-Ind., who introduced the House's Buy American amendment that won unanimous support, did not believe that the mistakes of the Great Depression applied to this case.

"It's not protectionist - there are no tariffs or barriers being created," said a Visclosky spokesman. "It's about the U.S. steel industry running at or below 45% capacity, and the objective is creating jobs."

Dorgan also rejected the notion that the stipulation might cause an international showdown, arguing that the World Trade Organization does not regulate federal grant programs like those included in the stimulus bill, should it pass.

In the end, Dorgan said his support for the bill comes down to fulfilling President Obama's promise of creating up to 4 million American jobs.

"We face an emergency situation here - the country needs to put people back to work," Dorgan added. "If I'm going to be told that buying American goods hurts the economy, then I'm sorry, we have a disagreement on that."



I agree 100% with this. The only way we're gonna "fix" our economy is to put Americans back to work.
We need jobs that include manufacturing and construction, not just McJobs if America is ever gonna get well.

The horrible practice of outsourcing jobs increased under Bush. It's time to reverse that trend and bring jobs back to America...for Americans.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
This absolutely makes sense. We're trying to stimulate OUR economy. Every penny should stay in house (although that has a lot of gray areas, since there are lots of things simply not produced in our country).
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
On the one hand, Americans are told 'buy American' to help the nation. On the other hand, free traders force Americans to make a choice between buying 'cheap goods from China' and goods made in America, largely in order to protect the profits of the importers of goods from China, and to help prevent our nation's fiscal irresponsibility from causing them political problems by impacting people's lifestyles.

If they want Americans to buy American, then abandon the free trade policies that put Americans in direct competition with pennies per hour labor overseas.

Asking them to simply voluntarily 'spend more' individually while leaving the cheap imports on the market is not an effective 'buy American' policy.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
It would be reasonable to overlook this when trading is with a country with whom we have a rough trade balance, otherwise I can't argue with the policy.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
This absolutely makes sense. We're trying to stimulate OUR economy. Every penny should stay in house (although that has a lot of gray areas, since there are lots of things simply not produced in our country).

remember that when the prices start to skyrocket because of the cost to pay and provide benefits to the American worker, ensure OSHA safety standards, as well as any idiotic standards and stipulations put on manufacturing by the feds.

 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Their economies are in the crapper as well and they want some of that American stimulus money. Screw that, if they want to help their steel and concrete industries they can pass their own stimulus packages.

Wheezer: It sounds like there are going to be ways to get around the use of domestic products if it's not practical to do so. Sounds like a pretty good compromise to me.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
There's a risk to it though, like will US Steel Makers take advantage of it by raising Prices? A Trade War at this time is not in anyone's interest either. All that said, if this is only limited to Government Projects, it probably won't be too intrusive into Trade, Manufacturing hasn't totally packed it in and can Import Steel and other materials if necessary.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: jpeyton
This absolutely makes sense. We're trying to stimulate OUR economy. Every penny should stay in house (although that has a lot of gray areas, since there are lots of things simply not produced in our country).

Then maybe you should push your lib officials to actually put a STIMULUS bill together instead of just a gigantic spending bill...
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
What do you all think about the problem that companies looking to build, for example, will now be paying more for what they need, thus slowing economic recovery?
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
This absolutely makes sense. We're trying to stimulate OUR economy. Every penny should stay in house (although that has a lot of gray areas, since there are lots of things simply not produced in our country).

you can keep all the money inhouse you want, if people start implementing counter trade barriers, blammo, that stimulus packages is fubared
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Their economies are in the crapper as well and they want some of that American stimulus money. Screw that, if they want to help their steel and concrete industries they can pass their own stimulus packages.

Wheezer: It sounds like there are going to be ways to get around the use of domestic products if it's not practical to do so. Sounds like a pretty good compromise to me.

they are.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
What do you all think about the problem that companies looking to build, for example, will now be paying more for what they need, thus slowing economic recovery?

If this is only for deficit-spending recovery money then it makes sense to keep as much of the money as possible in the US.

You're right that it might mean fewer miles of roads get built, so less wages for road-builders. But if that's because money is going to US concrete and asphalt plants instead of Sri Lankan, then it's still better for the US economy as a whole, right?

$60 million US construction workers + $40 million US materials suppliers does more than $70m workers, $5m US suppliers, and $25m to China or other prison factories.

It's probably more "green" too, since the Chinese factories will be dumping (more) toxic waste into the air and water.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
What about the country of Germany bailing out Processor manufacturer AMD?

Just how far do these people in Europe want to take this?
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
America was a height of power when it wasn't looking out for the World.

America makes the whole engine run . They are tring to change that . But it looks like things aren't going well for their plan. America needs to get back to America for America. NOT AMERICA FOR BRITISH RULE. The Britts are the whole of the problem . Their always involved. So it should be . Look at their pitty full little Island Few natural resources. Less Farm land and and evergrowing feeling by many britts. That to many mouths to feed not enough food. Look at their farms in S. Africa. . Stop the Britts from leeching on the world they created and so many problems will just go away.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Economic isolationism does not work in a global economy.

True in general, but this is a welfare-works program. The US materials suppliers are less efficient than sweatshop labor but the money stays where it's needed, in the US.

Not that I'm convinvced we need a trillion or two of deficit spending, but if we're going to then the money should stay in the US. At least until the workers go to Wal-mart to buy Chinese goods with their wages.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
America was a height of power when it wasn't looking out for the World.

America makes the whole engine run . They are tring to change that . But it looks like things aren't going well for their plan. America needs to get back to America for America. NOT AMERICA FOR BRITISH RULE. The Britts are the whole of the problem . Their always involved. So it should be . Look at their pitty full little Island Few natural resources. Less Farm land and and evergrowing feeling by many britts. That to many mouths to feed not enough food. Look at their farms in S. Africa. . Stop the Britts from leeching on the world they created and so many problems will just go away.

WTF are you talking about?
 

imported_K3N

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2005
1,199
0
71
We need to get our asses out of NAFTA and the World Trade Organization. These organizations serve as nothing more to widen the income gap, de industrialize our nation, and make the ruling class richer.

But don't expect Barack to do any of this.
 

NoShangriLa

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2006
1,652
0
0

They should look into fair trade instead of free trade, becasue complete free trade hurts the economy of countries that imports more than export. IMHO, protectionism isn't the anwers to the current economic crisis.
 

NoShangriLa

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2006
1,652
0
0
Originally posted by: K3N
We need to get our asses out of NAFTA and the World Trade Organization. These organizations serve as nothing more to widen the income gap, de industrialize our nation, and make the ruling class richer.

But don't expect Barack to do any of this.
If the American government is there truly there to serve the interests of its citizens then NAFTA & WTO will benefits everyone.

However, it seems as if the government is there to serve individual or organizations that contributes to governing campaigns/bodies. Therefore protectionism, Free Trades, or Fair Trades with not have the chance to be free of manipulations.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: K3N
We need to get our asses out of NAFTA and the World Trade Organization. These organizations serve as nothing more to widen the income gap, de industrialize our nation, and make the ruling class richer.

But don't expect Barack to do any of this.

You must have a phd in economics.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: jpeyton
This absolutely makes sense. We're trying to stimulate OUR economy. Every penny should stay in house (although that has a lot of gray areas, since there are lots of things simply not produced in our country).

remember that when the prices start to skyrocket because of the cost to pay and provide benefits to the American worker, ensure OSHA safety standards, as well as any idiotic standards and stipulations put on manufacturing by the feds.

That's true, but foreign products' lower front-end costs also carry high, invisible back-end costs such as American unemployment and underemployment and all of the costs associated with that. Just because a foreign product might be cheapest on the front-end does not mean that it is cheaper on the back-end nor that its net cost is really less expensive than an American-made product.

I don't know where this notion came from, but at some point Americans began to believe that it's possible to consume more wealth than you produce and that by engaging in free international trade we can consume more wealth than we produce.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Economic isolationism does not work in a global economy.

Why does the U.S. need to be part of a global economy in order to prosper? Have you given up on the notions of independence and self-reliance?

You're unsupported claim comes off looking like a dogmatic bromide. Just because a couple commentators make that claim and just because the media, ivory tower intellectuals, and politicians might believe that it is true does not itself make it true.

Also, according to capitalist theory, if America were a truly capitalist nation and every other nation on earth suddenly disappeared overnight or had never existed in the first place, wouldn't America still prosper?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
True in general, but this is a welfare-works program. The US materials suppliers are less efficient than sweatshop labor but the money stays where it's needed, in the US.

Note that the third world workers are cheaper and not necessarily more efficient. Note the distinction between impoverished cheap labor and actual productive efficiency.
 
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