Buying a car - bad idea?

SarcasticDwarf · Jul 21, 2010

This is something a blog.anandtech post but I would appreciate other perspectives and this may help a few other people.

Background
I currently have a 1998 truck that is starting to really fall apart. I currently spend about $1,000/year on repairs and maintenance. With my new job where I am driving far more and the condition of the vehicle I would be extremely surprised if it lasted much longer. I drive 15k+ miles a year at the current rate, so driving a car I love is of great value to me.

So, given this I am presented with three options:
Option A
Keep current vehicle until forced to replace it. Faced with regular repairs of unknown amounts. Cheapest option but also the most unpredictable when asking "how much will I spend on transportation expenses" during a given time period. Driving enjoyment: 2/10

Option B
Spend $12-15k on a newer used car. Driving enjoyment: 4.5/10

Option C
Spend 35k on a new car or very lightly used car. Driving enjoyment: 10/10

Reasoning
Option A seems like a bad idea because I get little enjoyment out of it and it makes finances very unpredictable. I could afford C, particularly if I save enough to get the financed amount down to $30k by the end of the year, though it will limit the amount I can save month to month.

Option B and C seem almost the same from a financial planning perspective. If I were to lose my job in the next 2-3 years I would not have enough saved to pay off the car or continue making payment for a long time. Granted, I could continue paying $250/month easier than I could $500/month, but I have not been in the workforce to accumulate much unemployment so I would be screwed pretty quickly regardless.

Moved from OT

ATOT Mod ElFenix

IronWing · Jul 21, 2010

I just listed my '88 Olds on craigslist. You could buy that.

Option A can work if you set aside funds every month to cover unexpected repairs. You just have to be disciplined about it.

Option C seems pretty risky right now. If I recall correctly, you work in a very cyclic industry (boom/bust) and you are catching the boom at the moment.

IMHO, option B looks best as you absolutely need reliable transportation to get to/from work. The repair costs of your current ride is only one cost. Missing work is another possible cost.

jlee · Jul 21, 2010

You can't find a fun/used car for less than $35k??

Damn, that's about what my Tundra, Subaru, MR2 and motorcycle are worth..combined...

SarcasticDwarf · Jul 21, 2010

IronWing said:
IMHO, option B looks best as you absolutely need reliable transportation to get to/from work. The repair costs of your current ride is only one cost. Missing work is another possible cost.

The industry is boom/bust but my position is within the research group of the company, so we are relatively safe. My position would be far more likely to disappear due to political issues/someone in power not liking me/whatever than due to company health.

jlee said:
You can't find a fun/used car for less than $35k??

Oh I can, but it is not really worth it to me. There isn't anything between say 18-27k that I would rate as being more than a marginal 7/10. At that point I figure I might as well make the leap to a 10/10. Anything below about $15k would function, but I would not enjoy driving all that much. Going with something new also has the advantage of almost no maintenance and repair costs for the first 3-5 years due to the warranty. At about five years the costs start to really show.

sdifox · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
The industry is boom/bust but my position is within the research group of the company, so we are relatively safe. My position would be far more likely to disappear due to political issues/someone in power not liking me/whatever than due to company health.

Oh I can, but it is not really worth it to me. There isn't anything between say 18-27k that I would rate as being more than a marginal 7/10. At that point I figure I might as well make the leap to a 10/10. Anything below about $15k would function, but I would not enjoy driving all that much. Going with something new also has the advantage of almost no maintenance and repair costs for the first 3-5 years due to the warranty. At about five years the costs start to really show.

how about some example of what you consider a fun car?

I picked up an off lease 06 MB E350 4Matic for like US23k 19 month ago. It's a lot of car. It had about 42k km on it. I have since put in 52K km

In other words, I put in more mileage on the car in 19month than the original owner did in 36 month. And I don't do long trips :O

F1N3ST · Jul 21, 2010

Lol, wut. You fail.

jlee · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
Oh I can, but it is not really worth it to me. There isn't anything between say 18-27k that I would rate as being more than a marginal 7/10. At that point I figure I might as well make the leap to a 10/10. Anything below about $15k would function, but I would not enjoy driving all that much. Going with something new also has the advantage of almost no maintenance and repair costs for the first 3-5 years due to the warranty. At about five years the costs start to really show.

lmfao what?

Damn.

There's a (properly put together) 726rwhp MR2 for sale for $15k over on MR2OC...but you can't get them new anymore so I guess you're not interested.

SarcasticDwarf · Jul 21, 2010

sdifox said:
how about some example of what you consider a fun car?

I specifically did not include vehicles in the original post because I didn't want to get into a discussion on whether to buy a new or used X, buy a Y instead of overpaying for a Z, etc.

Offhand, some of the more expensive cars I would rate in the configuration I would want >7/10

Altima
Camaro
Magnum (yes, not available anymore)
Charger
Camry
Mustang

SarcasticDwarf · Jul 21, 2010

jlee said:
lmfao what?

Damn.

There's a (properly put together) 726rwhp MR2 for sale for $15k over on MR2OC...but you can't get them new anymore so I guess you're not interested.

Apparently I need to state the obvious....none that I have looked at. Cars are all about preference and what value you place on certain aspects. As I intend to keep whatever car I buy next until it is dead and buried a vehicle no longer being made would be of less interest due to parts availability and repair expertise.

Exterous · Jul 21, 2010

I'd go option B. While I enjoy driving fun fast cars they tend to get me in trouble. Even so you could get a pretty nice car for that and be able to spend the other $250 on other things like trips to the bar/club, hooker&blow, save up for a nice big vacation etc

Of course I am a tad biased as that is exactly what we did. (If all goes as planned the extra we aren't spending on the car we are using to go to Ireland)

jlee · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
I specifically did not include vehicles in the original post because I didn't want to get into a discussion on whether to buy a new or used X, buy a Y instead of overpaying for a Z, etc.

Offhand, the two cars that I would rate >7/10 that are over 25k new would be an Altima or Camaro.

I just don't get it. /shrug

http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/1842314489.html
http://nh.craigslist.org/ctd/1850801014.html
http://nh.craigslist.org/ctd/1844248426.html

I'd be shocked if you find a $10-20k 5yo car that's going to cost you $15-25k in maintenance unless you're shopping for exotics.

Hell my Tundra is an '05 and has needed nothing but a set of tires and oil changes. Even my MR2, once I replaced stuff after I bought it, is pretty damn good for a 250k chassis / 20yo car.

jlee · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
Apparently I need to state the obvious....none that I have looked at. Cars are all about preference and what value you place on certain aspects. As I intend to keep whatever car I buy next until it is dead and buried a vehicle no longer being made would be of less interest due to parts availability and repair expertise.

Up to you...I just could think of a lot of ways to have more fun for less money.

sdifox · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
I specifically did not include vehicles in the original post because I didn't want to get into a discussion on whether to buy a new or used X, buy a Y instead of overpaying for a Z, etc.

Offhand, some of the more expensive cars I would rate in the configuration I would want >7/10

Altima
Camaro
Magnum (yes, not available anymore)
Charger
Camry

err... none of those are expensive cars. Not to mention they are all very different cars. And it is all about what about a used x vs a new y, that is the fun part.

here is a 2008 mustang for 20373 stick with 24360mi on the odometer.

http://www.finishlineford.net/used/Ford/2008-Ford-Mustang-00cd07a90a0a006401abb17664e5fc96.htm

or a 2008 Shelby GT500 for 39601 with 21601mi

http://www.finishlineford.net/used/Ford/2008-Ford-Shelby+GT500-1155e0880a0a0064003df83e7c279fb1.htm

SarcasticDwarf · Jul 21, 2010

jlee said:
I'd be shocked if you find a $10-20k 5yo car that's going to cost you $15-25k in maintenance unless you're shopping for exotics.

I updated that post with a few more (and see, that is exactly what this thread has turned into).

At least for me I would rather spend a small amount on a car that works or a lot more on a car that is near perfect. Anything in between is too much of a compromise where I would always be wishing I had spent just a little bit more. The car I really want tends to be one of the higher trim levels with many of the options.

sdifox said:
err... none of those are expensive cars. Not to mention they are all very different cars. And it is all about what about a used x vs a new y, that is the fun part.

The trim levels (and sometimes options) I would want tend to make them more expensive, and all of them in the high 20's. Since the vast majority of people get a lower trim level it makes finding a used one a real pain in the rear. For example, 2007-2008 used Nissan Altima 3.5SE's. There were something like three within 500 miles.

As far as new vs used, I think a lot depends on how long you intend to keep it. The increased depreciation in the first couple years are somewhat meaningless if you are keeping it for 10 years. At the same time that is also somewhat negated by the 3-5 years of warrantied driving.

jlee · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
For example, 2007-2008 used Nissan Altima 3.5SE's. There were something like three within 500 miles.

Gothgar · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
I specifically did not include vehicles in the original post because I didn't want to get into a discussion on whether to buy a new or used X, buy a Y instead of overpaying for a Z, etc.

Offhand, some of the more expensive cars I would rate in the configuration I would want >7/10

Altima
Camaro
Magnum (yes, not available anymore)
Charger
Camry
Mustang

lol, an Altima/Camry is a fun car?

jlee · Jul 21, 2010

Gothgar said:
lol, an Altima/Camry is a fun car?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/1854409531.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1808751422.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1843356293.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/ctd/1852230015.html

Way more fun.

OP, what are you looking for? A sports car? A family car? A commuter? A fun reasonable daily?

Gothgar · Jul 21, 2010

jlee said:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/1854409531.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1808751422.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1843356293.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/ctd/1852230015.html

Way more fun.

OP, what are you looking for? A sports car? A family car? A commuter? A fun reasonable daily?

agreed, now those are fun cars IMO

sdifox · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
I updated that post with a few more (and see, that is exactly what this thread has turned into).

At least for me I would rather spend a small amount on a car that works or a lot more on a car that is near perfect. Anything in between is too much of a compromise where I would always be wishing I had spent just a little bit more. The car I really want tends to be one of the higher trim levels with many of the options.

The trim levels (and sometimes options) I would want tend to make them more expensive, and all of them in the high 20's. Since the vast majority of people get a lower trim level it makes finding a used one a real pain in the rear. For example, 2007-2008 used Nissan Altima 3.5SE's. There were something like three within 500 miles.

As far as new vs used, I think a lot depends on how long you intend to keep it. The increased depreciation in the first couple years are somewhat meaningless if you are keeping it for 10 years. At the same time that is also somewhat negated by the 3-5 years of warrantied driving.

when I asked what you consider a fun car, I didn't mean specific models, rather the parameters you are looking for.

For trims, you look at used Lexus. They depreciate like a rock.

something like this. It's got to be better than a Camry.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=274909261&dealer_id=55859835&car_year=2007&rdm=1279707324171&lastStartYear=1981&model=ES350&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=used&distance=50&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=LEXUS&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=03766&advanced=&end_year=2011&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=38&standard=false

Elbryn · Jul 21, 2010

SarcasticDwarf said:
This is something a blog.anandtech post but I would appreciate other perspectives and this may help a few other people.

Background
I currently have a 1998 truck that is starting to really fall apart. I currently spend about $1,000/year on repairs and maintenance. With my new job where I am driving far more and the condition of the vehicle I would be extremely surprised if it lasted much longer. I drive 15k+ miles a year at the current rate, so driving a car I love is of great value to me.

So, given this I am presented with three options:
Option A
Keep current vehicle until forced to replace it. Faced with regular repairs of unknown amounts. Cheapest option but also the most unpredictable when asking "how much will I spend on transportation expenses" during a given time period. Driving enjoyment: 2/10

Option B
Spend $12-15k on a newer used car. Driving enjoyment: 4.5/10

Option C
Spend 35k on a new car or very lightly used car. Driving enjoyment: 10/10

Reasoning
Option A seems like a bad idea because I get little enjoyment out of it and it makes finances very unpredictable. I could afford C, particularly if I save enough to get the financed amount down to $30k by the end of the year, though it will limit the amount I can save month to month.

Option B and C seem almost the same from a financial planning perspective. If I were to lose my job in the next 2-3 years I would not have enough saved to pay off the car or continue making payment for a long time. Granted, I could continue paying $250/month easier than I could $500/month, but I have not been in the workforce to accumulate much unemployment so I would be screwed pretty quickly regardless.

i dont know how option A makes your finances unpredictable. Some months you have to pay for repairs but you're still positive in the savings overall department. whereas both option B and C are guaranteed negative draws every month. Insurance is probably more expensive on the new car as well. if you can make a 5k down by end of year, you're saving about 1k a month? if you can eke out 2 more years in the truck, you'll have 20k to burn on a nicer car. make 3 years, and you got 30k for that 10. You also say if you lose your job you're screwed with option B and C. There is an option D too. spend 5k on a used clunker that's a 2 or lower out of 10 on the fun scale but works reliably. drive it around for 3 years and then but the fun car. delayed gratification? yes. no debt stone tied to your feet in the worst case and being free and clear? pretty nice feeling. especially since you continue to save after the purchase for the next 10/10 car in say 10 years

DrPizza · Jul 21, 2010

I'm in my 40's. I've been driving since my teens. I've owned many cars. "Fun to drive" I still have trouble comprehending this. WTF? All the cars I've owned had steering wheels, brakes, gas pedal, turn signals, etc. The van that we currently drive a lot has Sirius in it - that's a different feature that the others were lacking which makes it more enjoyable to drive. But, wtf makes it "fun." Every other feature was the same from vehicle to vehicle (with the exceptions of cruise control & some were standard transmissions.)

"Wheeeeeeeeeeee This car is so fun to drive!" Wtf? I know the car ads try to portray some of these cars as "fun" to help them justify some of the sticker prices. But people actually get brainwashed into believing that? I suppose those are the same people who watch commercials with those fancy talking soap suds and decide that brand X makes washing the bathtub a lot more fun over brand Y.

Driving: you steer, you control your speed, you brake for stop signs, etc. If you're in car A instead of car B, you're doing the exact same thing, with the possible exception of shifting (if it's a standard), and getting used to a different placement for the light switch, wiper switch, and cruise control switch (if so equipped.)

I can only imagine a semi dealership trying to convince a truck driver that their brand is more "fun" to drive. "This is a lot more fun to drive than the Mack trucks and Peterbilts. Every time you run over something on the road, it makes a little 'ding' sound like hitting a coin in Mario Brothers. Road kill? <ding> <ding> <ding> Isn't that fun!"

DrPizza · Jul 21, 2010

Oh, and if you're driving "far more" than 15k per year, I *would* replace the 98 truck with something a little more fuel efficient. Plan B. Of course, I've never owned a $30k+ used vehicle. Do they give you blow jobs while you're driving or something?

Of course, if you do the math,
driving a 20 miles per gallon vehicle for 20k miles each year versus driving a 30 miles per gallon vehicle for 20k miles each year really only saves you less than $1000 annually in fuel expenses. I've known a few idiots who when gas prices were high, ended up upside down on their car loans, sold their cars, and purchased newer vehicles to save money on gas - in the end, they paid 10-15k to save 2 or 3k, but didn't recognize that. When they write out that car payment check (which includes the balance of what they lost on the trade in value of the other car rolled into the new loan), it's once per month. But, when they fill up the tank, it's more like once per week.

F1N3ST · Jul 21, 2010

Yeah just get some form of a Ford with the EcoBoost, I like that engine. V6!

Also, go for used.

mmntech · Jul 21, 2010

F1N3ST said:
Yeah just get some form of a Ford with the EcoBoost, I like that engine. V6!

Also, go for used.

Fords are vary solid right now. I haven't been too pleased with GM or Chrysler lately. The Cobalt/G5 are worth avoiding. They feel cheap and tend to run into mechanical issues. Same with the Dodge Calibre. Feels vary cheap and stiff to drive. Slow throttle response too. Would only recommend GM's SUVs and pickups. Mind you the Savannah 2500 van is surprisingly fun to drive, though it's huge V8 has a lot to do with that. :awe:
I doubt many people will share my appreciation for the cargo van.

The Ford Focus is a good choice right now. Vary comfortable to drive. When they say it matches Japanese quality, they mean it. Ford has really improved their cars in the last couple of years.

For fun cars in your price range, I'd look at the Ford Mustang, Kia Forte Koup (not bad surprisingly, I drive these a lot) Mazda 3 Sport, Honda Civic, Subaru Impreza, Toyota Matrix, or the BMW 323i.

As for new vs used, with new you'll get the full warranty. Plus you're guaranteed it hasn't been in any accidents. With used you really have to do your homework. Get your car history reports, lemon reports, and see if warranty options are available. Shop around and haggle as much as you can. Though that last bit goes with buying any vehicle.

F1N3ST · Jul 21, 2010

mmntech said:
Fords are vary solid right now. I haven't been too pleased with GM or Chrysler lately. The Cobalt/G5 are worth avoiding. They feel cheap and tend to run into mechanical issues. Same with the Dodge Calibre. Feels vary cheap and stiff to drive. Slow throttle response too. Would only recommend GM's SUVs and pickups. Mind you the Savannah 2500 van is surprisingly fun to drive, though it's huge V8 has a lot to do with that. :awe:
I doubt many people will share my appreciation for the cargo van.

The Ford Focus is a good choice right now. Vary comfortable to drive. When they say it matches Japanese quality, they mean it. Ford has really improved their cars in the last couple of years.

For fun cars in your price range, I'd look at the Ford Mustang, Kia Forte Koup (not bad surprisingly, I drive these a lot) Mazda 3 Sport, Honda Civic, Subaru Impreza, Toyota Matrix, or the BMW 323i.

As for new vs used, with new you'll get the full warranty. Plus you're guaranteed it hasn't been in any accidents. With used you really have to do your homework. Get your car history reports, lemon reports, and see if warranty options are available. Shop around and haggle as much as you can. Though that last bit goes with buying any vehicle.

Meh, I love my Cobalt but it's loaded maybe thats why. I drove a 2009 Focus about 400 miles, it got 37.5 MPG! But it's not as quiet as my Cobalt for road noise. Plus I liked the seats more in my car, and my car has slightly more leg room for the driver, see, my chair is all the way back in every car I've ever driven, I am too tall.

Buying a car - bad idea?

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